Tales of Known Space
 

Is anyone out there considering a "Tales of Known Space" (Larry Niven) mod? I've been waiting for Ultimate for Gold, and the STNG stuff, but it seems like the universe of Louis Wu and Beowulf Shaeffer might be perfect to play in. Just off the top of my head I can remember Humans, Kzinti, Trinocs, Slavers, Tnuctipun, Bandersnatchi, Pak, Kdatlyno, Pierson Puppeteers....and I know there were more.

I might like to work with a partner on this if anyone is interested, but it's not something I'd tackle alone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

You could add a one-per-ship component with 60,000 hitpoints...

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

Kzinti? Funny, I thought they were a little-known cat race from Star Trek...

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, Star Trek "stole" them from Niven (well, sort of; Niven adapted a couple of his stories for the animated series for Star Trek, so they had permission at one point; but SFB got in trouble for using the Kzinti & renamed them).

As for modding Known Space into SE4: I like the idea; the main stumbling point is that each race had very few different types of ships, and ISTR that most people just bought one of the 4 standard puppeteer (General Products) hulls. Of course, since I've never read the Man-Kzin War series, just the original Niven stuff, maybe I'm incorrect.

You could at least mod in the Slaver stasis boxes by renaming the ruins and/or altering the description of the ruins...

There were also "Outsiders", who traded with everybody, but couldn't stand gravity so they stayed on their ships in deep space. If only we could get an AI to play a nomad race effectively...

Would we have to give the "Lucky" trait to the humans to represent the Teela Brown factor? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually, you might end up with multiple "human" empires, just to represent the fact that evolution diverged somewhat on the outlying colonies...

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

I wish I knew how much damage the ringworld laser did. We could have a special weapon (and the mount and the platform as well) that would only fit on the ringworld. 'Course it would only be funny if you didn't know it was there.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

it could be done, but it could not be used to take out ships/planets/fleets anywhere in the system. it could only be used against targets that attack the ringworld.

all you would have to do is to make a weapon platform so large that it will only fit in the cargo space available on a ringworld or sphereworld, and make a mount sized for it.

of course, a planet with 25 facility slots devoted to cargo containers could probably hold one too, but it stands to reason that a planet devoted solely to this purpose would be just as effective as a ring world that supports one in its spare time. heck, with the appropriate cargo facilities, a ringworld might have several of them.

think of it, a 5GT weapon platform with a mount that does size*100 damage*500 range+20. or whatever.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

I experimented with weapon platforms mounts that were exteremly long range once and it seems that I found there was an absolute limit to the range. I want to say they couldn't hit targets beyond 20 even though they should have been able to by definition, but I can't recall right now. I'll have to test it again.

Geo

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's like thinking _Lord of the Rings_ is a D&D ripoff.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

The killer would be modding the Puppeteers.

Total cowards but incredibly advanced. You would have to give them a high tech start and frankly that would not be enough to equal their real power. Make them a neutral and put them in an unconnected system. If you have the bad luck to enter their system, well... just stick your head between your legs and kiss your a** goodbye! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif They want no-one to know where they live and will destroy you "down to the Last kitten" to hide their secret.

It would never occur to them to capture and use your people-- much too dangerous to allow near the peaceful Puppeteers!

So, if you know they are around, best you NOT look for them. In fact, encourage your enemies to look for them! This might be a major strategy when the Puppeteers are involved. I'd much rather fight the Kzinti! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Kim

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

And don't forget to make those fusion drives a weapon too. Very usefull for frying overconfident Kzinti with psychics aboard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

Hmm...ok, so let's see where we are....

Outsiders and Starseeds: not a clue....

Propulsion: various fusion drives, and some gravity polarizing drives (Kzin get them early). Kzin and maybe others get multiple propulsion types per hull. Unlucky in wars but incredible warriors.

Hulls(Ships): 4 GP hull standards, some experimental hulls and some unique hulls per species....And I guess you could have some interesting hull mods, ie opacity to certain frequency lasers or something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Weapons: Com Lasers, fusion cannon based on drives. since com lasers also represent strategic advantages, maybe an attack bonus based on comlasers?

Fighters and drones: I don't think there is a carrier in this universe, but I can easily see them as planetary defense...well, maybe....

Interesting structures: A ringworld could be very difficult to make...but I'm willing to bet that the Massive Space Dock in the Ultimate Mod is a Builder/Pak artifact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Puppeteers: we assume the puppeteers have left on the great migration away from the core explosion. The Puppeteers become an incredibly advanced, defensive neutral. Attack them and die by the numbers:

Humans: lucky (ala teela brown and the pop lottery), diplomatic (ala louis wu), cunning (ala beowulf shaeffer and gil the arm), any other thoughts?

Thrintun: very weak and technologically poor, but incredibly powerful intel attacks for tech theft and unit insurrection (might need a planet insurrection). Is it possible to have unit insurrections during combat? Non GP hulls.

Tnuctipun: very weak but technologically very advanced, only species that can develop helmet technology that creates humongous intel defense against Thrint. Non GP hulls.

Kdatlyno: neutral warrior empire, with special sonic capabilities technology tree. maybe they start off subjugated to the Kzin?

Pak: (heh) Incredible troops and combat advantages, high tech ability, no diplomacy at all, only expands after meeting another empire, very slow expansion. Does not use GP hulls, starts off with weaker fusion drives. prolly a unique technology tree with lots of gravity weapons. strong tendency to large fleets of smaller ships.

Bandersnatch: might be difficult.

Trinocs: All I remember is that they are incredibly xenophobic and racist.

anyway, these are just some thoughs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (Laffing, I expect I have a lot of gray matter out there right now thinking about this one )

:Jon

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

I was just thinking the other day this would be cool. (mostly wondering how you'd mod an invulnerable Pupeteer hull http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Psychic? (Plateau eyes, Gil's "arm" & other agents' powers)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Especially since they're not supposed to be a space-faring race. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Could make them a neutral, maybe.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And strong. There was a joke in one of the books:

Q: How many Trinocs does it take to paint a house?
A: Three. One to hold the paintbrush and two to shake the house up and down...

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

It is possible to make super-large antiship drone that can not be fit into any ship and can be stored on ringworld only. It will have insane damage resistance and mega-ton warhead. Any anymy ship foolish enough to enter the system with ring-world shall be destroyed.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

If I recall right Niven penned an early draft for one episode for TNG on Star Trek and dropped his cat people in, after many revisision and such the episode had changed, but the race remained.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, that would certainly be moddable.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One way you could make the Puppeteers uber powerful and still only be a neutral is to put them in a unconnected system as you said, but then make 2 or 3 of their planets Sphereworlds, or just one even. This would make them extreamly tough to beat once and if you get into their system.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

Hmmm, this is getting interesting. I think I may have to learn how to do mods and actually try some of this out. Graphics stuff is totally out of my skill set, but I imagine I could program some race AI. Seems like the easist race to start with would be the Pak or the humans.

Ok, seriously. Anybody out there interested in this that has real modding skills?

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just download the imagemod, and you can get a lot of fancy new images. You don't even have to package them with your mod, and can keep your download size small.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

I've been wondering if it would be possible to mod the universe to bring in the concept of Pupeteer Hulls. (ie really tough but only made by one race and traded to the others) The invulnerability thing I get (although probably don't really want them totally invulnerable) but I'm wondering if it is poossible to have only one race be allowed to build them and then another could trade for them and upgrade it with components. I'm thinking this would be impossible since I think you would have to be able to build a hull before you can upgrade it.

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

See what you've done. You made me dig up all my old Larry Niven books and start reading them again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Don't forget to add that really realy big and really realy fast engine that takes up 99% of the space on a baseship so Beowolf Schaeffer can visit the centre of the galaxy. hehehe

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

Well, the more I mess with it, the harder this mod is to do. Here are some of the considerations:

I have about 10 alien races. 7 of them need access to General Products hulls (puppeteer), and then have *similar* techs but not absolutely congruent. Then I have 3 races which need completely independant tech trees (Pak, Thrint, Tnuctip). So what I really need is more logic operators in the TechAreas and Facilities then I have. or I can build lots of basically duplicate items and balloon the files waaaaay up there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Then there is the issue of behavior and realism. First, puppeteers are going to act like an incredibly powerful neutral, they have already started their great migration and don't really want to interract with anyone.

Then, we need some different colonizing/utilization parameters. For instance, Pak and Kzin are definitely going to want to make facility-size defense units for planets, sattelites and platforms and orbital bases not withstanding.

Would the Pak bother with planets that breeders couldn't live on? Sure, maybe as weapons facilities or automated mining yards. But you would definitely treat them differently.

And everybody would have orbital laboratories, we need that in the code http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Starting conditions: how do I start the Kdat as slaves of the Kzin? How do I start the belters and Flatlanders in the same system and have them cooperative?

Dyson structures will make my head hurt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif so will planetary-sized cannon...and the fact that there are no warp points in the niven universe (damm these hard scientists http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) And yes, it would also be nice to have better ways to trade stuff, like GP Hulls http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

==================================================

And so, I'm still thinking about Known Space, but I'm also thinking about the Mote Universe of Niven and Pournelle: warp points, langston fields, saurons, moties, MacArthur and Lenin battlecruisers, etceteras.

And there is the universe of the Merchanters Alliance (merchanters/cyteen/earth company)...the hinder stars, very big stations at important stars, very few planets, warp point travel, Mazziani Strike carriers with riderships full of space marines (Commander Edmund Porey aboard the carrier Africa)....

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

Sounds like you need to write a new game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tales of Known Space
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is a way. It would be kind of a mess though. We have talked about it for other things before, but it could be applied to this concept.

You could modify all the comps/vehicles/faciliites/units in the game, so that they don't require and Rads to build, only Mins and orgs. Then you mod the space yard faciliites so that they only build with mins and orgs, but you give the Puppetteers a racial tech space yard that can build with all three. Then the pupetteer hull tech can be designed by anyone, so it would be posible to upgrade and stuff by anyone, but it can only be built by someone with a pupetteer space yard. Only problem would be if somone captures a pupetteer planet.

An alternative to that that would be a LOT easier to mod would be make the Pupeteer hull be a really obscene amount of one resource and give the pupeteers a space yard that builds with a lot of that resource. Then the other races could build a puppeteer hull, but it would take a REALLY long time. This would eliminate the need to change all the other ships/comps/facs. Problem with this would be maintenace on the ship. You could give the hull a big maint reduction to bring it back into line with regular ships I suppose though. But it would be a little wacked out. After the maint reduction the maint on your special ship will be all one resourse which is a little odd.

Geoschmo