Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

What about the Neural Net - it takes up a lot of space on a ship.

Here's another question in that area: how valuable are the computer tech enhancements? Especially ship-wise.

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

The value of the neural net is questionable, but training is definitely required.

By doing both ship and fleet training to the max, your ships get +40% to both attack and defense. That is equivalent to two extra tech levels in Sensors and ECM, and can easily make the difference between crushing blows and invulnerability.

If you normally get some ships with +50% legendary status, then the neural net may be worthwhile, especially on the dreadnoughts and baseships.
Place one of the legendaries in each fleet, and all the new recruits get +30% to attack and defense, beyond the training.

With those kinds of stats, enemy fleets will be nothing more than trivial annoyances.

Re: computer tech.
Master computers are OK in most cases, but nearly required against psychic races. Against Allegiance subverters, the only things you can do are:
- use master computers and hope they miss with the computer virus weapons
- use swarms of small ships, so they can't capture them all at once.

Against other races, the MCs will save small amounts of space, freeing up room for an extra shield generator or small weapon.
You main benefit from the computer tech area will be in resource bonuses.

[ July 31, 2002, 20:01: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

(EDIT: Dammit, SJ beat me to the answer) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

We had a whole thread devoted to ship/training facilities; the general consensus was that using them in a single-player vs. AI game is almost like cheating, since the AI doesn't use them. So the answer to your question is yes, the training facilities are useful; a ship with 20% experience gets a +20 modifier to attack and a +20 to defense (which means 20% greater chance of hitting the other guy, and a 20% greater chance that the enemy will MISS). If you use both types of training facility, and send out a fully-trained fleet with fully-trained ships, the ship and fleet experience combine to create 40% bonuses for attack and defense. Considering that it's VERY difficult to increase fleet experience without the training facility, this is a MAJOR bonus.

I tend to ignore the Neural Net, partly because it's so big and partly because it would really need to be on every ship to offer an advantage. Although I guess it would be a nice trick to train a single ship (in a one-ship fleet, of course) while building lots of other ships, each with a Neural Net. Then, when you fleet the new ships with the trained ship, you have the effect of a fully trained fleet without having to keep all those ships over the training facilities.

Not certain what you mean by the computer tech enhancements for ships; if you mean Master Computers, they add a fair amount of expense to smaller ships, but since they replace the Bridge/CQ/LS components, you can save a lot of space, particularly on the larger ships; and on the largest ships (Baseship, Battle Station, Starbase) you can actually SAVE money, as the Master Computer is cheaper than a Bridge + 4 CQ + 4 LS components. The Master Computer is also immune to the Psychic weapon Allegiance Converter; this is supposed to be balanced by the Master Computer being vulnerable to the Computer Virus weapon, but the AI's don't use computer viruses (nor do they use the Master Computers).

If, by computer tech enhancements, you mean the robotoid factories, computer complexes, and databank complexes, they are also quite useful, if used properly. Since they give up to a 30% production bonus, as long as you have 4 or more of a particular facility affected by the bonus (for instance, 4 mineral miner facilities on a planet, plus a Robotoid Factory), the bonus will generate more than a single facility could. Also note that facilities affecting a single planet do not "stack", so a Robotoid Factory plus a Mineral Scanner will only provide bonus from one of those two facilities (whichever bonus is higher). System bonuses DO stack with planetary bonuses, but again you can only have one facility providing a particular bonus per system.

I hope that's clear enough - I kinda started rambling near the end. But I'm sure many others will also post answers here...

[ July 31, 2002, 20:16: Message edited by: DirectorTsaarx ]

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

Others have already pointed out that training is very useful.

I think the cleverest use for the Neural Combat Net would be to get a ship to 'Legendary' status and then convert it to some sort of support ship (Supply? Repair?) without weapons that does not actually fight. This makes it far less likely to be lost in combat. Then give it and all the fighting ships the Neural Combat Net. When the fleet goes into combat, this 'support' ship will run away into the corner but still contribute it's +50 percent experience to all the ships that actually fight. Unless your enemy is using missiles or has the Talisman this is going to be a crippling situation because you will be able to replace any losses, with full training, as fast as you can build. Your opponent cannot possibly keep up both in quantity and quality unless he also has the NCN.

[ July 31, 2002, 21:14: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

Wait a second--mineral scanners and robotoid factories don't stack? If so, what's the point of researching the scanners since you can already get a 30 percent bonus with the robotoid factory III--and get to it much earlier than you can the scanner, IIRC.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

retrofitting is always a good use for NCN ships. better if you can plan longer in advance.

you can keep two designs of your warships, build them with the NCN and then retrofit the device out in favor of more armor/weapons/shields once they have been trained up to 50%.

and since its comparatively easy for point defense ships to gain experience, you can use one of them to train all your other ships, without having to have some fleet actually prove its self in battle.

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's the problem: there is no point to them. Esp. since the Robotoid Factories affect all 3 resources, unlike the Scanners, that only affect 1. If the Scanners add more than the Robotoid Factories, say, 5-10% more, then they could be useful.

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

This is why I have modded the resource extraction tech fields. It also makes no sense for a single facility to improve all three resources on a planet. Completely different technologies have to be involved for each. So I've ditched the resource extraction modifiers in the three resource extraction tech fields and replaced them with of single-resource 'enrichers' -- and removed the Value Improvement Plant, leaving only Climate Control and Atmosphere Converters in the Planet Utilization field.

[ July 31, 2002, 21:45: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

The hard part with getting your ships to legendary status is few enemies Last long enough to actually "train" your fleets properly, battles being the incredibly one-sided affairs they are. Yes fighter heavy races tend to offer more chances for training, but fighter heavy races go poof even faster.

Geoschmo

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

Thanks troops! I guess I should have looked harder in the Archives for the thread. But this thread is concise and to the point.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's the problem: there is no point to them. Esp. since the Robotoid Factories affect all 3 resources, unlike the Scanners, that only affect 1. If the Scanners add more than the Robotoid Factories, say, 5-10% more, then they could be useful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OOPS, aren't the scanners cheaper and quicker to build?, but require more research.

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Questionable? Damn, man. Build up some ships (with neural nets) to park and train, during peacetime. When war happens (as it inevitablywill), don't send them ALL off in a group to the front.

Build new ships. Assigne 2 or 3 of the hgihly-trained ships as "Task Force Command Ships" into the same fleet (ideally, you trained the peacetime fleet in Groups of 2 or three, each in their own fleet).

Now, while you might expand your fleet to five or ten times normal size, your ships ALL still benefit from being highly-trained (thanks to the "leader" ships), AND, you have a stable fo trained FLEETS to put them into.

Assuming you wanted to go order-of-magnitude higher in fleet strength ... and wanted, oh, 200 ships ... then for peacetime, train 20 ships, in ten fleets of 2 ships each. When you build / unmothball the other 180 ships, they ALL benefit as if they'd been sitting there trainign up to 20%.

Once one set of "leaders" is trained, ofc, if yo're still at peace ... mothball 'em and start a new set of trainees.

If you're ever fortunate enough to get to 40% ship with someone, and they have a neural net ... you get to 40% ship with EVERY ship in teh same fleet.

IMO the benefit of the neural net is GREAT, if you can only expect to train SOME of your ships.

If you can expect to fully train them ALL, of course (psychic race relyign SOLELY on their system-wide training facilities), then it's a waste of space, ofc.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or +50%, -without- training at all. If you go to a peacetime footing after a war, it might pay to break up those veteran fleets (w/o deletign the fleet ITSELF ofc) and spread them around as a core group of veterans LEADING NEW RECRUITS. 8)

Even in the midst of a war, if you have a ship hit 40% or 50% ship experience, consider pullign it BACK fromt eh fighting, to merge into a large fleet of raw recruits. If you can, then they can skip ALL their training, and (so long as the actual legendary ship survives) gain teh FULL benefit of that legendary ship's experience. 8)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">- try and stay completely out of the range of their subverters in the first place.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or freeing up space for another PDC or two -- maybe three, on the REALLY big ships, and on full Starbases ofc.

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">VERY creative. Especially if you make that single, +50% ship a SUPPLY boat (lots and lots of solar panels, or just the one quantum reactor), and if you have room add repair modules. 8) Makes it useful in and of itself for the design, AND, as a "C3I" command-center.

Hmm.

That puts me in mind of a component to add; is there a component ability that can add to the hit/miss chances of ALL ships in the same fleet, the way the Neural Net does ... but using a -specific- bonus%, rather than based on experience?

If so, a "Flag Bridge" or "War Room" or the like might be a nice idea ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

I think that the 'Combat Modifier - System' ability works on a component. So you could have a single ship or base with both a 'Combat Intelligence Center' and the NCN act as a super-command center.

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You get the 40% experience bonus on every ship in the same fleet that has a neural net - an important point to remember. The neural net doesn't "push" experience to other ships, it "pulls" experience from other ships.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As I mentioned below, on the REALLY big ships (baseships, base stations, starbases) it's cheaper to use the MC than the Bridge/CQ/LS combo. For Dreadnoughts, Heavy Carriers and Large Transports, the MC adds a cost of 500 minerals (plus a few orgs and rads, but those are usually in a HUGE surplus for the standard game).

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

Baron... For the value improvement. I always stacked them and built 5 per planet...( on large and huge planets )

Is your modification greater than 3% ???

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

Well, it's always possible to stack them. It's good that they do stack, too. But I don't generally bother. If you need more resources that badly and don't have other options then you've probably already lost the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And no, I've not increased the enrichment rate. I think 3 percent annual is plenty.

Re: Are fleet/ship training facilities all that useful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I tend to stack them up too -- in order to get to the higher resource%'s faster, then strip them out and replace with something else I might need. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But I do tend to stick with stacking no more than ~3 of them (thus, not quite 1 full % per turn, with the level 3 facility, that way), and often less (say, if I've a climate enhancer built -- until the conditions hit optimal, that's one less "space" for a value booster http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Ringworlds or the like, though ... those I might rack up -lots- of them, 5 or even 10. Why not, after all? 8) Not like I'd be hurting for ROOM to build other stuff on huge places like those ... ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif