An idea to balance out tech
 

I just read a thread where Baron Munchausen said something about sphereworlds to the effect that "if you can build them you have already won"
I think this is true of many techs and it would probably be fun to play a game with several players of similar tech level. My idea would be to make it so that after you research a tech the other races would have a certain chance to aquire it. Not right away of course but say after a year of having a tech information about it would leak out and the other races may randomly aquire it. Sort of like the 'tech breakthroughs' in MOO2. OF course this would probably require a major code change.

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

yeah. Imperialism had a great system where after one player researched a technology, other players had the option of buying it. I think it was exclusive for a short period, then it became available on the open market.

essentially technologies represented industrial developments, and you were recruiting merchants and tradesmen and industry barons and such whom could develop those technologies within your nation.

doing something similar in se4 would definitly require a hard code change, unless you played a moderated game or a game with a good code of honor where players made technologies available to each other shortly after researching them.

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

Another 4X space game I played -- Galactic Civilizations had something like this. Basically, when you invested intelligence points, you learned something about other civilizations culture, and once you knew everything about their culture, you would occasionally acquire some of their best technology.

Simply put, Gal Civ was not as carefully balanced as SE4, and this is just one example.

OTOH, the SE4 intelligence project Technological Espionage is really too expensive. I've wiped an AI off the map at times before the project could even finish. It often fails if you know what you're looking for, and if you don't specify, you end up acquireing Physics I or something. If you Crew Insurrect a top of the line ship, you can analyze it for all of it's advanced tech. (I know you might not make it to the shipyard, but still)

This would seem to suggest that Tech Espionage is ... hmm ... is overbalanced a fair term? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ August 11, 2002, 14:01: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

Hmm I wonder if you could mod this idea by making Intell really easy to get. Make it much more effective and remove all projects but the tech Espionage?

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That might be a worthwhile mod to make. It could be fun to play on an occasionally leveling field. Then winning would be based on tactics rather than who researched what first. I dunno though, that sounds similar to high tech start, which doesn't guarantee a fun game.

Anyway, some of the current intelligence projects really seem uninteresting to me. Late in the game, cargo destruction really doesn't make much of a dent in the massed weapon platforms, for instance.

And what's with poisoning the population? Maybe this seems horrific to a human player -- but does it really dent production? Ditto for destroying one facility or damageing conditions or planet value.

Some people want more complicated intelligence, then a wise person pointed out -- if you want that, take out the ships and planets and call the game Intelligence Wars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

"And what's with poisoning the population? Maybe this seems horrific to a human player -- but does it really dent production? Ditto for destroying one facility or damageing conditions or planet value."

Yes, it does. It also makes planets easier to invade/kill off. Knocking out one facility can be critical if that facility is, say, a Robotroid Factory. Conditions doesn't do a whole lot, but the hurt from planet value drops should be obvious- less of that resource can be produced there.

Phoenix-D

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

And of course the loss of population will have a more profound effect in mods like Proportions.

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

Trust me, the pop-killing intel project can really screw over colony worlds. It kills a few 100 million at a time (IIRC). This can be used, in conjunction with cargo bombs, to prevent those colonies from ever having any population.

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

Yup I think sadly intel is useless in SE4. Well it can be fun for a bit early on but it seems that it quickly becomes useless as races get defenses which seem impossible to breach. I would like to have any intell project have at least a certain minimum chance of succeding. Intell defense should just reduce the percentage chance of a project succeding. Getting back to my idea is it acutually possible to mod the game so that you could run an Espionage project and have a gauraneted chance of success? I'm thinking if you could remove counter intel and basically all the projects except Tech Espionage. But will this mean the tech espionage would always work or can you set the percentage chance that it will work. ie say 10 or 20% chance of sucess?

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

PS yes when Pop killing tech reduces a planet to 0 that is nasty!

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Complicated isn't quite the right word. It's not that people want a more 'complicated' system with more micromanagement. It's that they want a better one. Subtle might be a better word. More sophisticated. Better adapted to the game world.

Your observations above are perfect examples of the crude level of interface between intel and the rest of the game. Would a saboteur of even average intelligence use the exact same sort of explosives or other destructive device against all of stored Satellites, Troop mechs, and Weapon Platforms? Shouldn't mines go up together in one big BOOM when sabotaged? Instead only as many get destroyed as the initial damage can account for, just like with troops. If the nature of the attack is to 'interfere with maintenance' rather than plant a bomb, then it ought to have some way of affecting large numbers of units even when the damage total of the units increases in the late game. But it doesn't. It's the same old trick from day one till the end of the game.

The other intel attacks suffer from the same trouble. Poisoning the population is the same attack regardless of the size of the colony. Shouldn't it be possible for the population to recognize that something is wrong after a certain amount of time and find the source of the trouble? In that case, only a certain proportion of the population should be poisoned, not a fixed number. A certain number of people would eat the poisoned food, for example, and then the civil government would put the clues together and find the source. Larger colonies would have more people eating on whatever regular schedule your race eats on, so it would be possible to do more damage at once, while smaller colonies would have fewer people eating on the schedule and the same amount of time to find the source (assuming the same level of 'cleverness' in hiding it) would result in fewer people being poisoned.

This is the problem with the intel system. It's not 'lack of complication' but lack of sophistication that annoys people. Our wonderful 'edumacation' system doesn't do a very good job of teaching us the subtle shades of word meaning these days... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is another aspect of the 'sophistication' problem. Attacks are calculated on a fairly simple 'point total vs. point total' basis. There is no factoring in the type of culture/society/government you have defending, nor the ability of agents from the attacker to figure out the culture and move around in it. Also, you can start intel attacks instantly once contact is established. Ridiculous. It should take months or years to establish an intelligence network in a newly contacted empire before any major projects can begin. The amount of time you have invested in building a foundation intel network is completely over-looked in the SE IV system. There should be a special 'Build Intel Network' project that you have to use on each and every target empire in order to even have the ability to stage intel projects within them.

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

MOO2 had a better intelligence system in my opinion. But I still think that the best intel/counterintel system to date was found in SW:Rebellion. You had to pick the planet you wanted to affect, and then that planet's own defenses would have to respond to the attack. But as the attacker, you had to know what planets were colonized by your opponent (recon required) and it was a really good idea to know what intel defenses were on that planet before you attacked with your team(s), oh, and then there was the actual team and the possibility of sending a decoy team too! It was a very well thought out system, imo.

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

Intel sabotage can be useful, if you use espionage to pick and choose your targets. The biggest problem, as I see it is the simplistic nature of the system. Ships/fleets can do most of the same jobs more easily and with more precision. At the same time, the simplicity prevents intel from being used effectively in specialty situations ships can't accomplish.

RE: the high cost of Tech Espionage, I believe it's to make it more likely to succeed (more points=harder to block).

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

Baron if I understand you post you are saying an intell project will either fail or succeed based soley on the number of defensive points? So if a race has 0 defense the projects will always succeed and this cannot be modded?

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

Depending on the intel project there may be a 'base' chance for it to succeed or fail, like Puppet Political parties, for example. But as far as intel defenses go, yes, it's simply a matter of spending more points to win the contest. Higher level counter-intel helps a little bit by multiplying your points. That's it.

Re: An idea to balance out tech
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It could be called [racename]embasssy or [racename]intel control centre or something, and you have to build one for each player that you want to infiltrate. It could also generate intel points. This facility would be hard for MM to add into the game (I expect) but would solve the "infiltration" question and mean that certain planets become significant targets for certain empires...

Anyway, things which I think ought to modify intel op success probabilities:

*Distance of target from your territory or (in the case of ships) from any colonised planet.

*Whether you have any population in your empire from the target species. (You could recruit and/or brainwash them to infiltrate the enemy=-)

*Whether any of your population is on the target planet/ ship.

*The happiness rating of target planets (ie discontented citizens helping enemy agents.)

*The experience rating of the target ship. (more experienced = more loyal/ more able to prevent sabotage.)

Just patching these few things in as percentage modifiers would greatly increase the (perceived) randomness and complexity of intel. I imagine it would be relatively simple for MM to implement. Also, these changes would attach added importance to things like population happiness, enemy population distribution & crew training, which can only be a good thing. You'd find yourself running one project (ie induce rioting) to increase the chances of another project working...

Also, when a planet is captured by PPP, any native troops on that planet should get the chance to retake it. This is important, IMHO.

[ August 13, 2002, 13:17: Message edited by: dogscoff ]