Specific vs common sensors ?
 

This is a question for the pros... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

This is what I am given to understand:

-Some ships must have a specific sensor installed in order to benefit from it. I believe combat sensors and multiplex tracking would fall into this Category.

-But apparently some sensors do not need to be installed on all ships as the ships without it can benefit from the ships in the fleet that do have it. In most cases, it would be needless to install this component on every ship.

Here is a list (complete, I hope) of the various sensors available as components.

Combat Sensors
ECM
Gravitic Sensors
Hyper Optics
Long Range Scanners
Multiplex Tracking
Neural Combat Net
Psychic Receptors
Scanner Jammer
Tachyon Sensors
Temporal Sensors

Can anyone tell me which is which?
I'm really in the dark on this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Neural Combat net is NOT a sensor. It 'transmits' combat experience between all of your ships in a given combat event that have the component, making them all fight at the highest level available.

Multiplex tracking is NOT a sensor. It allows your ship to fire on more than one target per combat round. That's all. But yes, it must be on each ship, and undamaged, to work.

Sensors related to CLOAKING are 'system wide' instead of per ship. Combat Sensors and ECM are per individual ship only. Long Range Sensors are a 'special case' because you have to have a particular ship in range to use them, but the information is obviously 'global' once you get it by clicking on the target enemy ship. The Scanner Jammer prevents the Long Range Scanner from working.

Look at the cloaking device. There are five cloak level abilities:
1) EM Passive
2) EM Active
3) Gravitic
4) Psychic
5) Temporal

So, the five sensor types that counter-act these are the 'system level' sensors:

1) Hyper Optics
2) Tachyon Sensors
3) Gravitic Sensors
4) Psychic Receptors
5) Temporal Sensors

[ August 15, 2002, 02:54: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

But with cloaking and tachyon-type scanners, any type of scanner will defeat any type of cloak (of appropriate cloak level, of course).

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

I agree with you that the Neural Combat Net is really not a sensor. I only included it along with Multiplex tracking because SE4 Gold puts them in the sensor Category in its description of the various components.

I appreciate your comments on the system wide capabilities of the cloaking sensors and the counteracting “’system level’ sensors’”.

But unfortunately, it does not completely answer my question.

So, let me put the question another way.

Let’s say I was foolish enough, to build a battleship with all the “sensors” in it. And then build a cruiser with just weapons. In essence, the cruiser is ‘naked”. And further, let’s assume the sensors I have installed on the battleship are all of a higher level that the sensors of the opposing fleet. Now, to what extent does the cruiser benefit from the sensors I equipped the battleship with:

Combat Sensors – no
ECM
Gravitic Sensors
Hyper Optics
Long Range Scanners - yes
Multiplex Tracking - no
Neural Combat Net - yes
Psychic Receptors
Scanner Jammer
Tachyon Sensors
Temporal Sensors

I have answered a few from what I think you have said, but the others are still open for clarification…

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Combat Sensors – no
ECM - no
Multiplex Tracking - no
Neural Combat Net - yes, if they both have it
Scanner Jammer - no
Long Range Scanners - doesnt apply in combat; yes out of combat

These are all exactly the same in the un-modded game:
Psychic Receptors - doesnt apply in combat; yes out of combat
Tachyon Sensors - doesnt apply in combat; yes out of combat
Temporal Sensors - doesnt apply in combat; yes out of combat
Gravitic Sensors - doesnt apply in combat; yes out of combat
Hyper Optics - doesnt apply in combat; yes out of combat

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Much appreciated Fyron

So, my next question will assume the sensors are either needed or helpful. For example, you wouldn’t install combat sensors if your ship only had missiles for weaponry.

If one wanted to build an efficient fleet, would it would look something like this?
-Each ship would have
---1) a combat sensors for certain weapons (ie direct fire)
---2) multiplex tracking (if it has one or more weapons)
---3) the neural combat net.
---4) the scanner jammer.
-At least one of the ships in the fleet would have
---1) the long range scanner
---2) one of the sensors (psychic, tachyon, temporal, gravitic, hyper-optics) to
-------a) penetrate the cloak of the opposing fleet and/or
-------b) cloak our fleet

Would this be a fair assessment?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Oops

The phrase
---2) multiplex tracking (if it has one or more weapons)

should be

---2) multiplex tracking (if the ship in the fleet has two or more weapons)

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Hit the Edit Post button. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Each ship would have
---1) a combat sensors for certain weapons (ie direct fire)
Point Defense Cannons can be affected by combat sensors. If the enemy uses fighters, it is a good idea to put CS on any ship with PDCs.

---2) multiplex tracking (if it has one or more weapons)
Useless if the ship only has 1 weapon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Generally, these aren't that useful unless the ship uses weapons that need to target different ships (Allegience Subverters, Ionic Disrupters), or it has a lot of weapons (probably at least 5).

---3) the neural combat net.
This is only useful if you have one or more ships with much more than 20 experience. You can train your ships up to 20. If all of your ships are at 20, and none are higher, these have no effect. You need at least 1 ship with high experience to get any benefit. Otherwise, the 30 KT are wasted.

---4) the scanner jammer.
Generally, it doesn't matter if the enemy can see what is on your ship. Cargo-carrying ships can make good use of these though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Consider using Scattering Armor. It's defense bonus stacks with ECM, and it provides scanner jamming.

-At least one of the ships in the fleet would have
---1) the long range scanner

---2) one of the sensors (psychic, tachyon, temporal, gravitic, hyper-optics) to
-------a) penetrate the cloak of the opposing fleet and/or
Correct.

-------b) cloak our fleet
No. You need either Stealth Armor or a Cloaking Device on each ship to cloak the fleet. Scanners only defeat enemy cloaks, not cloak your own ships.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

And ECM - that was mentioned earlier. Each ship that you want to make hard to hit should have an ECM.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Mucho Gracias Fyron

I was using “efficient” in the sense that each ship in the fleet
-a) must have (i.e. no choice) the offensive/defensive capability for which the sensor was designed for and
-b) there would be minimum redundancy in order to achieve the maximum offensive/defensive capability possible with the least expenditure.

In a real game, there is no “ must have ” requirement but trade-offs since what is most advantageous would depend upon the purpose for which the ships were designed, and ultimately, the circumstances in which they find themselves.

Basically, I wanted to determine what was theoretically possible before getting into the practicalities. Your answers were very apropos. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now for the practicalities….
=1) you say

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand SE4 does not use “cheats” to help the AI. If so, then it could not know the composition of a ship unless it has a effective long range scanner and without it, wouldn’t know the difference between a cruiser with weapons and a supply ship with a cruiser body (no weapons or just a pop gun). So, isn’t it of assistance to the enemy AI to determine whether a ship is a threat or not. And doesn’t our AI (in strategic mode) use it, if only to determine its priorities based on our selection of “have weapons/doesn’t have weapons” or “strongest/weakest”

I can see where the AI would find it useful for cargo ships…they would automatically flee to one of the corners. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

2) You also say

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes like scattering armor to defeat long range scanners and stealth armor to defeat level 1 active/passive scanners

Could you list the various devices which are available to cloak a ship and to defeat the probes of enemy ships?

On a totally unrelated topic, you say:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is this in reference to my correction. If so, I can't find it...where is it?

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Dogscoff say:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quite right...forgot about ECM

When this is all said and done, I am thinking of putting this all together in one easy to read list.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Re:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Found it under the "Edit" button http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When you are in combat, you can see the components and cargo of a ship no matter what. In these cases, "long range" scanners are redundant, and Scanner Jammers are defeated.
In fact, cloaked ships in the same sector as a combat will also be detected. (If no combat occurs, the cloaked ships can slip past unnoticed)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes like scattering armor to defeat long range scanners and stealth armor to defeat level 1 active/passive scanners

Could you list the various devices which are available to cloak a ship and to defeat the probes of enemy ships?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He did.
Stealth armor.... or "Cloaking Device". That's it in the unmodded game.
Storms can add cloaking, but they aren't a device.

[ August 15, 2002, 16:40: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Suicide Junkie says:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmmm...then long range scanners and scanner jammers only have a use prior to combat? Like whether to flee or attempt to engage in combat?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By detected, I assume you mean their components and cargo are shown.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are right...I didn't realize the "cloaking device" was a real component and thought Fyron was using it in a generic way to refer to a class of cloaking devices.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Once you have encountered a ship design in combat once, you can always see it's design later. So, scanner jammers on non-cargo ships are only useful for brand-new, top secret designs. Once you use the ships, the enemy will always be able to know their designs. After the enemy has seen your ships in combat, the only thing that the scanner jammer can do is prevent them from seeing if your ships are damaged or not and what cargo (if any) they carry.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cloaked ships are hidden on the strategic map outside of combat (unless the enemy has an appropriate level tachyon-type scanner, of course). Once in combat, the cloaking device does nothing for the ship. Stealth Armor still provides the +5, 10 or 15 to hit penalty, but the cloaking aspect doesn't function during combat.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Fyron says:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fascinating! I was going to post the results of my discussion with you guys but that is going to have to wait until digest this and reformat my presentation.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

So if I understand the import of Fyrons recent post...

Only one Long Range Scanner is necessary per system to scan ships in a system.

A Scanner Jammer is necessary on each ship if one wants to prevent an opponent from discovering its components. Once battle takes place, the components of the design is known to that race. I assume the scanner jammer still serves its purpose for other races...it would be illogical for them to know the design too since they have not encountered it.

Your point of masking the damage could be an important point as well. Does the AI remember the damage it inflicted in a battle? And is it a factor in it deciding whether to resume the conflict?

I can see where a player may want to do a minor upgrade in order to present a new ship design to the Long Range Scanner.

[ August 15, 2002, 20:39: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just remember, at level 1 the scanner range is only 1 square. At level 2, 3 squares. If you want to spy on a certain ship, you may have trouble getting close to it -- esp. on simultaneous. The level 3 scanner reaches 5 squares. So I don't know if having it in the corner square of the solar system would let you scan the diagonal opposite square. You won't often miss a ship on level 3, but it could happen if someone was trying real hard.

Edit: Just made that a little clearer by changing one word http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ August 15, 2002, 21:31: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Arcon says:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Something else I didn't know! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

tbontob, (and all who helped)
May I suggest that your awesome summary of this info be added to the FAQ for Newbies thread?

Perhaps start a section called "SENSORS, SCANNERS, STEALTH and CLOAKING"

Any info contributed there is a great help indeed.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Here it is!

What I have tried to do is put this information in a form that newbies can readily understand, while trying to impart the nuances of the sensors without being overly verbose or complicated about it. So, I haven’t gone into what level beats the level of an opposing sensor. I understand that is a topic in itself which I may wish to tackle if I can successfully present this one.

================================================
SENSORS

Categories of sensors

1) Intel Components impart information to the player (human or AI), but does not confer any particular benefit to the ship or to the sister ships of the fleet – 1 per fleet
- Long Range Scanners III– provides information to the player on ships within 5 sectors of the fleet.

2) Ship Specific Components confer benefits only upon the ship in which they are installed. – 1 per ship
- Scanner Jammer –
- --- Prevents opponent from discovering the components of a design never in battle
- --- Prevents opponent from discovering a ships damage
- Combat Sensors – gives an attack bonus (increased accuracy)
- ECM – gives a defense bonus (decreases accuracy of opponents weapons)
- Mutiplex Tracking – enables ship to fire on more than one target
- Neural Combat Net – obtains the experience of the ship which has the greatest experience of all the ships which have the NCNet installed on their ships
- Cloaking Device – prevents scanning by Hyper-Optics and Tachyon/Gravitic/Psychic/Temporal sensors

3) Fleet Global Components confer benefits not only upon the installed ship but with sister ships of the fleet. – 1 per fleet
- Hyper Optics – detects hidden ships with EM passive scans
- Tachyon Sensor – detects hidden ships with EM active scans
- Gravitic Sensor – detects hidden ships by difference in gravity
- Psychic Receptor – detects hidden ships – Psychic race
- Temporal Sensor – detects hidden ships – Temporal race

================================================== =====
With respect to 3) Fleet Global Components, they all seem to serve a similar purpose. Does anyone of the components have an advantage over the others?

[ August 15, 2002, 21:55: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

"With respect to 3) Fleet Global Components, they all seem to serve a similar purpose. Does anyone of the components have an adavantage over the others?"

Other than being cheaper to research and/or cheaper in minerals/orgs/rads, no. Not in the standard game.

Phoenix-D

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Another Component for Category 3 is:
Quantum Reactor: Infinite supplies, which are shared amongst the fleet.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Suicide Junkie says:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I could expand the topic to include other categories than just sensors...

Anybody know of other components which can be shared with ships of a different design?

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Hey guys!

I haven't received any critiques on my presentation! Is it that good, that nothing more can be said about it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Or is it so bad, nobody wants to touch it with a ten foot pole? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Have some ideas about adding some explanatory notes. But before I do that, I'd like to know if it more or less accomplishes my objective - giving the newbie a basic knowledge on selecting the sensors that are available to him for installation in his ships and specifically which sensors are shared.

So some feedback (negative or positive) would be appreciated.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Like the following could be improved...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">to

3) Fleet Global Components confer benefits not only upon the installed ship but with sister ships of the fleet. – 1 per fleet (select 1 of the 5, the 5 components basically do the same thing)

[ August 16, 2002, 10:58: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

tbontob,

Sorry for not checking in sooner (that damn job thing keeps getting in the way). It think your summary looks like a darn good start. Great work. I am digesting some suggestions for you, but I'll have to check in a bit later.

I do believe that you should limit the information to just sensors, for the sake of simplifying things.

Perhaps the quantum reactor info will fit better under a different section, such as:
I. DESIGNS AND COMPONENTS
a. SHIP COMPONENTS
b. FLEET COMPONENTS
1) Quantom Reactor

Just brainstorming...

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Hi Stone Mill

Thanx for the feedback.

What you have said mirrors my own sentiments.

So I thought I'd just hang in there to see if there were other components were were shared in addition to the quantum reactor.

When I started this thread, I felt there were more shareable components than what we were able to come up with. I wonder if there is a general feeling of a let down in the realization that there are so few.

So I think I'll just hang for a while to see if there are any suggestions for improvements.

Hmmm...I am thinking of an addendum about which level of sensor beats the level of another sensor.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not certain that Last part is accurate. I thought the NCN ships match the highest experience in the fleet, whether the most experienced ship has NCN or not. I could easily be mistaken about this, though.

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

Imperator Fyron had this to say early in the thread...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I assumed (maybe wrongly?) that you have a group of ships in the fleet each with the NCN and the individual ships in that group attain the same level of the ship with the best experience in the group.

Comments anyone?

[ August 18, 2002, 06:08: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Specific vs common sensors ?
 

That is correct