Mount Mod for v1.78
 

I posted my Mount mod I used during beta testing. If you try it - I am interested in feedback !

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000002

Whats in this Mod:

Mount Modification for Base game. No technology changes. However technology will have to be researched to discover the new mounts.

Ships become much tougher in this mod. I compensated by incorporating miniturization into all of the advanced weapon mounts. To look at the mod look at the CompEnhancement.txt file. This file can be found in:

Space Empires IV\MountMod-AJC\Data\CompEnhancement.txt

Note:
Shield Generator mounts come in two types, the first level will only require you to research level 3 shields before the 1st generation shield mounts come into play for bases, 400+ KT ships and 200+ KT weapon platforms.

Some components will require research before new mounts are available. I.E. Shields level 3 and level 6, Armor level 6, Point defense 5

The following base technologies are required to activate most of the mounts :

-Advanced Military Science a Minimum level 4; up to level 6
-Physics 4
-Computers 6
-Applied Research 3

List of New Mounts:
2 types of Shield mounts, Armor mount, Improved Weapon mounts, Improved Weapons and Point Defense (using mounts), Seeker Mount, Miniturization of Components.

[ August 15, 2002, 07:48: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

I'm still new to this game, so I have to ask this. If i wanted to incorporate your mod into another one, how would I do it? Let's say I want to use your mod with the TDM mod. how do I combine them?

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Download his zip file, unzip, then copy CompEnhancement.txt from MountMod-AJC\Data\ folder to TDM-modpack\Data. It might be a good idea to back up original CompEnhancement.txt
Now, when you start with TDM, you can use these new mounts.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Thanks a lot. i'll try that when I get home tonight.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

I would suggest making a copy of TDM and just renaming it slightly. Then put the mount mod , CompEnhancements.txt into the TDM mods Data folder. that way you dont affect your original TDM mod in any way.

If you use it , please let me know how it goes I am very interested!

thanks

[ August 16, 2002, 03:57: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Sounds interesting...didn't know that mounts could be researched! Do the mounts work with Standard/TDM AI or require new AI files?

zen

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

AJC, how does your mount mod work with the mount addtions that are in the extras of the gold cd. Are they compatible with each other? just wondering

just some ideas mac

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

If the base games AI researches the required tech-then they will use my mounts without any changes to the AI. One of the things I have noticed is that some AI dont research physics 4. This will stop them from getting the best mounts possible. I will need to make a change to compensate, by dropping Physics to level 3. However All races will at least get 1st generation Shield generator mounts.

My mount mod is based on the base game. I did not create the mod with the extras in mind. Most of those I dont use. What I posted was what I created during beta testing of patch2, to test the new features.

In my mod there are actually two copies of the mount mod.

One that will not disrupt se4 games already in progress **IF you are Not using another mount mod**. If you are already using another mount mod - the only way you could use my mounts was if you cut and pasted my mounts onto the end of the CompEnhancement.txt in the mod your using so that the order of the existing mounts is not disrupted.

The second copy in my Mod is the copy that is better organized, the final copy designed for starting new games.

[ August 17, 2002, 07:17: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

MountMod-AJC v2 for SE4 Version 1.78 has been slightly modified

History-

V2
1. Changed Research of Physics 4 to Physics 3 to allow ALL stock AIs to use all the new Mounts in the mod.

see
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000002

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

anybody tried this mount mod- any feedback- ideas?

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

I have tried Your mount mod, Its good but,some mounts take a while to get.To make it better i would like more mount types/variety if you could. Right now im enjoying Denull mount mod.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

..thanks for the feedback !!

I thought about the length of time and have considered shortening the research flow time for mount tech.

I was concerned that the mounts could overwhelm the game balance early on so I made them tough to research.

What kind of additional mounts are you thinking of - more of a range of mounts and power levels as you increase in tech?

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

MountMod-AJC v3.1 for SE4 Version 1.78

As requested I have spread out the technology requirements so that some of the new mounts are easier to get. I also made modifications to some of the mounts -see below

General Mod Information:

MountMod-AJC.zip-
Is for new games started in Version 1.78.

Whats in this Mod:

Each mount type has unique tech requirements. The technology requirements for the new mounts are spread throughout the tech tree. Here is a breakdown of the tech levels that are required to activate the various stages of the new mounts.

TECH & TECH LEVELS
-Advanced Military Science -2,3,4,5,6
-Physics -2,3
-Computers -2,3,4,5
-Applied Research -2,3
-Propulsion -6
-Stellar Harnessing -5
-Shields -3,6
-Armor -6
-Point Defense -5


List of New Mounts:
2 x Shield mounts, Armor mount, improved weapon mounts, Point Def Mount,
Engine/Solar Sail Mounts, seeker mount, miniturization of
components, improved basic weapons (using mounts).

HISTORY--
v3.1
1. Drone engines now use engine mounts.

v3--
1. Increased new mounts damage by an additional 25%
2. reduced costs of new mounts
3. reduced supply usage of new mounts
4. Reduce research requirements for new mounts across the board.
5. Spread out the technology research requirements for the new mounts. Different mounts will now appear earlier in the game
6. Added Engine Mount, Solar Sail Mount
7. Eliminated the mod for games already in progress. (will add it back in if asked)

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000002

[ August 21, 2002, 05:16: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Wow, AJC, you've done lots of work for this mount mod! Looks interesting.

Do the missile mounts you added actually take effect in practice, or do they give false reports of damage changes that don't really occur in practice, as in earlier Versions of the game? (i.e., in previous SE4 Versions, the Damage Percent and Range Modifier mount values gave misleading appearances of working, but in fact the damage was not multiplied, and the range only determined the max firing range, and not the max travel range - that is, you could only change the LAUNCHER stats, not the seeker, with mounts. Is this working now?)

This looks like it will add some interesting twists to gameplay, although it seems like there will be some pretty sudden jumps in ability when the required techs are accumulated for some of the mounts.

PvK

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

No - I thought they were, I missed that.. ugh , as u thought ,the damage doesnt register as the heightened damage. Time to rethink this mount and send my save game to Aaron. It gives an increase in range only for now... Grrr..

[ August 23, 2002, 07:53: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

MountMod-AJC v4 for SE4 Version 1.78
updated 8/23/2002
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000002

HISTORY--

v4
1. Completely Revised seeker mount - realized they were not doing increased damage. Seeker mount is now a Pod that mounts seekers to the hull using less space.

2. Added Computer mounts. (Multiple Computer virus weapons on a ship with multiple Allegiance Subverters is one of the most unbalancing ship designs in the game. These mounts add 3 levels of hardened components to protect a computer with).

General Mod Information:
MountMod-AJC.zip-
Is for new games started in Version 1.78.

Whats in this Mod:

Mount Modification for Base game. No technology changes. However technology will have to be researched to discover the new mounts.

Ships become much tougher in this mod. I compensated by incorporating miniturization into all of the advanced weapon mounts and increasing the damage dealt. To look at the mod look at the CompEnhancement.txt file. This file can be found in:

Space Empires IV\MountMod-AJC\Data\CompEnhancement.txt

Note:
Shield Generator mounts come in two types, the first level will only require you to research level 3 shields before the 1st generation shield mounts come into play for bases, 400+ KT ships and 200+ KT weapon platforms.

Each mount type has unique tech requirements. The technology requirements for the new mounts are spread throughout the tech tree. Here is a breakdown of the tech levels that are required to activate the various stages of the new mounts.

TECH & TECH LEVELS
-Advanced Military Science -1,2,3,4,5,6
-Physics -2,3
-Computers -2,3,4,5,6
-Applied Research -2,3
-Propulsion -6
-Stellar Harnessing -5
-Shields -3,6
-Armor -6
-Point Defense -5

List of New Mounts:
2 x Shield mounts, Armor mount, improved weapon mounts, Point Def Mount,
Engine/Solar Sail Mounts, seeker mount, Hardened Computers, miniturization of
components, improved basic weapons (using mounts).

[ August 23, 2002, 07:55: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

anyone try this and have any feedback - ideas for improvements ? Things you hate, like?

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

I would give it a try, but every time I find the time to try it, I find a new Version on the forums! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I'll try to get around to it sometime this week.

I don't think even Proportions came out with new Versions this fast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

The Last changes were related to feedback on how difficult it was to reach the new mounts through research and I thought that might be an issue anyway - so I had been working on it quietly when the comment was made.

The other change was an problem with increasing seeker damage using mounts. One that escaped my notice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Hopefully Aaron will fix the problems with increasing damage through mounts for seeking weapons.

I also added those computer mounts to try and balance the Allegiance Subverters and Computer Virus weapons. You can make a pretty nasty ship exclusively using those two weapon systems, and they can rule the battle field.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!!

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

As it stands now, the level 3 Computer Virus is pointless in vanilla SEIV. It does 60 damage, and the largest MC is 40kt--20 wasted damage units. The level 1 Virus is worthless unless the enemy ships are using the highest-level MCs, which are also the smallest. Because of the way special damage types work, CV1 will not destroy anything larger. Of course, this does not take into account mounted weapons or modded MCs.

I look forward to trying your mod! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Hmm. My own experience with large amounts of Computer Virus/Allegiance Subverters weapons on ships have been quite different. Its been one of the most dominating designs I have fielded in hotseat games. I havent tried it in PBW yet...

It seems so unbalancing that I think the computer virus should be affected by shields.

Try making ships exclusively using Allegiance Subverters and Computer Virus weapons with decent multiplex. Add a few normal ships for fire power and then unleash a fleet of them.

Add religous tech and the religous talisman which enables you to always hit your target, it makes your fleet unstoppable. There is just no defense against the computer virus /Allegiance subverter combination.

thats why I created the computer mount.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Now this'll seem off the wall, but could you make computer viruses a ram only weapon? Or at least a missile? It seems to me that physical contact of some sort with the enemy computer core should be required... otherwise the enemy would just employ radio silence, and *poof* no programming can hack in (thus the love of intra-nets throughout corporate america). This short range/physical contact requirement will at least buy the poor victim some time to bLast you as you close the distance.

Now I know that some would argue that the weapon could be doing physical damage to the computer core, but if this were true (i.e. Electromagnetic Pulse Bombs, etc) then surely shields and even armor would help protect the core.

Lastly, if these weapons are really imbalancing, you could incorporate an anti-computer virus type of armor (I think SJ has some in P&N, though I've never been hacked in a game, so I've never gone researching for it)

Edit: missed your Last post. You could also reduce the probability to hit for the weapon, say -35%. This would repressent the difficulty of over-riding the computer core defenses. Doesn't help with the religious talisman effect, but hey, G_d Hackrs RooL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hope that's of some help,

[ August 28, 2002, 04:46: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

"Add religous tech and the religous talisman which enables you to always hit your target, it makes your fleet unstoppable."

3000 racial points.. I could do a lot with 3000 racial points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

(sure, steal a ship. I have 5 others right behind him)

Phoenix-D

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

One criticism is I think many of the mounts are quite powerful and have the effect of suddenly multiplying the strength of a whole range of units. Also, they tend to be achieved suddenly and with the accomplishment of other levels that also give things. I know it was a lot of work to create all of these levels, and one strength is that by using only existing tech levels, the AI will automatically use these. So, assuming it is a design decision to not add new tech areas or tech levels to provide the mounts, I would suggest that the power of the more strictly positive mounts be reduced, and more disadvantages tied in with them (for example, greatly increased cost, or tradeoffs between performance and damage resistance, or other values). That is, make the mounts be more about choices with consequences and tradeoffs, instead of just making them plain better. I know there are already quite a few tradeoffs, but I think the net gain is often very strong, so I think it would be more balanced and interesting if the net improvement was less, or at least if the very strong mounts involved very steep prices.

PvK

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would disagree on this. Use fighters, drones and fast ships with missiles and a maximum weapons range strategy. Your enemy with computer virus/allegiance subverter ships will have a hard time.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

See THIS THREAD for the "How to beat the Talisman" discussion...

[ August 28, 2002, 10:25: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

IMO-Fighters are a joke. The game has fighters as an afterthought. Its really about Big ships. I haven’t run into a situation yet against fighters that was threatening, unless I didn’t have enough defensive ships/units to defend with when attacked.

Drones are somewhat threatening, but easy to deal with.

As for Computer Virus/ Allegiance Subverter combination- I am not saying make a fleet with nothing but those weapons, that would be a recipe for losing.

A fleet has a better chance to survive with some variability in the tasks the ships perform.

However - From my own experience, 10-15 of these ships in a large fleet can devastate the opponent. I have seen it. In my Last Hseat game - I had a fleet of 55 ships that all moved 7 in combat. There was about 10 CompV/AllegianceSub ships in the fleet. Allot of the Opponents ships were taken over in the first 3 turns. Those that were not, got walloped by the rest of the normal ships in my fleet.

PVK-
so are you thinking that the mounts should be far less in the damage? Maybe keep them the same as the unmodded mounts but give size reduction advantages and other improvements beyond damage ?

One of the problems I ran into with making the mounts more expensive was that the AI cannot afford to build the ships.

When I started the mounts were allot more expensive and I found that the AI ceased to produce ships at the level needed to be competitive..

tech levels - I spread them out upon request - however it sounds like I went too far. Looks like making them difficult to research was the way to go in the first place. That way they don’t interfere with the early techs and overwhelm lower techs too early. I should have left them as I originally planned and made them become available as you move into the higher techs on the tree. Sounds like I should revert them back.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wasn't specifically thinking of reducing the damage, but of making the mounts less of a net positive thing. It seemed like there were several mounts which in one way or another were a major multiplier to ability, without a major multiplier to cost or size or any other disadvantage, and were along a standard research path. It seemed like this would mean going to a certain point in the typical research path would suddenly provide a major ability multiplier. Since it's already on a typical research path, this would encourage players even more to go up the usual path, and doesn't involve much choice or trade-off, except of course which mount abilities to try to get to first. In some cases it seemed like the costs of the mounts were very low compared to their abilities.

Of course, the unmodded SE4 mounts are like that too (advantage outstripping disadvantage), which is one of the major reasons why small warships become nearly obsolete in unmodded SE4.

And, the AI should only use mounts which are worth the cost. If you want the AI to use a mount, then it should provide an advantage. But it doesn't have to be without cost. Being worth the cost is one thing, but having almost no cost is another.

PvK

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Can you take one of the mounts in the mod and provide an example of what your thinking?

As far as I know there is no way to control what mounts the AI uses, unless the mounts are created for very specific weapons. any insight into this ?

In the mod I tried to avoid specific mounts to make the mounts list more user friendly. This is because It drove me nuts looking at the huge list of mounts in the mount mod being used in the Adamant 003 game on PBW.

Out of curiosity - did you actually get a chance to run a game using the mount mod or just looked at the mounts and what they do?

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

I haven't had time to try playing a game with these mounts yet. I just read through the file.

I know what you mean about wanting to limit the number of mounts that appear on the pick list. That's another reason in favor of addind new tech areas just for mounts, so players only see mounts that they asked for through research. That, also, is one way to control which mounts the AI uses (if you mod the AI's) : if mounts have specific tech area requirements that don't overlap with other research paths, then you can have the AI research file specify which mounts they will research, and therefore, which mounts they will use. Of course, this means moddng the AI files, which may be beyond the scope of what you want to do in a mount mod.

The other way to control which mods the AI uses is to order them in the component enhancement file. The AI always choses the valid mount that appears lowest in that file. That can be used to give the AI default preferences, and as you know, by adding "ordinary" mounts below ones the AI shouldn't use, you can keep the AI from using mounts that are best for human designs only. (You do this with your "Normal Component" mount).

In reviewing your mounts again, I'm noticing that actually they seem more balanced than I remember thinking they were on my first reading of them.

However, here's a specific example of the sort of thing I meant:

Long Name := Pulsed Gatling Mount
Short Name := Pgat Mount
Description := 20% of cost of normal, 10% size, 20% damage, +20% to hit. 50kt min. Used to imitate a 'gatling' effect.
Code := PGat
Cost Percent := 20
Tonnage Percent := 10
Tonnage Structure Percent := 10
Damage Percent := 20
Supply Percent := 10
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 20
Vehicle Size Minimum := 50
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship/Base/Satellite/Weapon Platform
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Smaller Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 3

In this case, Smaller Weapons is a fairly cheap tech that I (at least - can't speak for others) usually reasearch relatively early on. In this case, when I hit level 3, I would notice that with this mount I can suddenly cram twice as much firepower in the same space, halve my supply use per damage, and get a +20 to-hit mod, on all weapons.

In this case, I'd suggest adding an research-expensive tech area for Gatling Mounts to cover this and the earlier Gatling mounts you've put under Smaller Weapons. I'd also give them a range mod of -1 or -2, and change the supply mod of this one from 10 to 40-100 (gatling weapons, to follow the real-Earth analogy, consume [and waste] massive quantities of ammo).

PvK

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

"In reviewing your mounts again, I'm noticing that actually they seem more balanced than I remember thinking they were on my first reading of them.

However, here's a specific example of the sort of thing I meant:

Long Name := Pulsed Gatling Mount
Short Name := Pgat Mount
Description := 20% of cost of normal, 10% size, 20% damage, +20% to hit. 50kt min. Used to imitate a 'gatling' effect.
Code := PGat
Cost Percent := 20
Tonnage Percent := 10
Tonnage Structure Percent := 10
Damage Percent := 20
Supply Percent := 10
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 20
Vehicle Size Minimum := 50
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship/Base/Satellite/Weapon Platform
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Smaller Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 3

In this case, Smaller Weapons is a fairly cheap tech that I (at least - can't speak for others) usually reasearch relatively early on. In this case, when I hit level 3, I would notice that with this mount I can suddenly cram twice as much firepower in the same space, halve my supply use per damage, and get a +20 to-hit mod, on all weapons.

In this case, I'd suggest adding an research-expensive tech area for Gatling Mounts to cover this and the earlier Gatling mounts you've put under Smaller Weapons. I'd also give them a range mod of -1 or -2, and change the supply mod of this one from 10 to 40-100 (gatling weapons, to follow the real-Earth analogy, consume [and waste] massive quantities of ammo)."

Actually PvK that is a mount from my mod (Deathstalker's Mount Mod) not AJC's Mount Mod. But your concerns are noted and welcomed. I am still balancing some of the mounts and I agree with your 'massive ammo used' and the range restrictions. Will probally add them with the next Version. I have not added 'New' technologies mainly for the reason that I wanted my Mount Mod to be added to any basic se4 game, its mainly there to provide many new options without having to massively rescript the tech area and AI's that have to use the new tech.

AJC, good to see that I have some 'competition' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I rather like some of your mounts (esp the computer mount, nicely done btw).

Rather curious as to what you think of my Mount Mod. Any suggestions?? (comments/critisims)?

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

thank you very much! I guess am a rogue modder, I usually just stick mods out there and never hear anything about them.

I prefer to think of modding , as no so much a competition but as a collaborative effort to improve the base game and add to the fun.

One of these days a vote should be held to determine the top features of the most used mods. Then the best of each mod should be absorbed into a single custom mod.

If you like any of those mounts you should incorporate them into yours!

I have actually been playing with the DeathStalker mount mod in a PBW game. Since I am not very familiar the mounts I have struggled a bit trying to determine which ones are the best to use , and which mounts can be used on what.

This is mainly because the list of mounts is so long and I havent actually studied DS Mount Mod in detail.

Since you say your working on balance, you should be pleased with the new abilities on mounts. It will allow you to do alot of cool things with the mod as you are working with it.

Things I felt important to consider with the mounts.

1. watching the cost increase to components when placed on a mount. Keep an eye on the economic impact to the AIs build rate. Making them too costly really slows the AI down.

2. Making sure that the mounts are not so easy to get that they would be overwhelming the early techs usually gained in the early stages of the game.

(This drove the decision to make it difficult to get the mounts. It can only be done through prolonged research efforts. To get the specialized mounts early would require extreme efforts in research, which would impact a players empires expansion rate in the game. )

3. Find a way to counter the Computer virus/ Allegiance Subverter combination. Computer mounts.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's not forget about emmisive armor.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

I dont have a pulse gattling mount in my mount mod -that's DeathStalkers mount ..

None of the mounts in my Mount mod decrease damage when applied to weapons.

[ September 02, 2002, 19:58: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm finally to the point in my game where I finally acquired all of the research so I can get all of the necessary requirements. I like what you have done. This was the first time I've played the MountMod, so I can't compare this Version to an earlier Version. But it does make it more interesting when you're building a ship. Great job.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Sorry AJC - as you saw, I got your mount mod confused with Deathstalker's.

I guess some of what I said applies to yours, too, however. Looking over your mount mod again, I think it would be interesting and fun to play with, though my concerns/suggestions would mainly be:

1) The effects are pretty sudden in some cases. For instance, I'd prefer to have miniaturization come in a series of levels instead of suddenly being able to half-size components. Of course, it might get to be a hassle to have too many, since they all go in the "mounts" list. Maybe at least add a 75% miniaturization mount available before the 50% one.

2) Some of the mounts are just clearly better than not using them, so there is no choice involved. Advanced shields and advanced weapons in particular allow great improvements to performance per kT AND cost less than full-size components, so there doesn't seem to be a choice involved in whether to use them.

3) The tech level requirements don't really fit my imagination of what they represent. I don't get why computers, military science, and applied research would result in sudden multipliers to the abilities of certain components.

An example:

Long Name := Advanced Shield Generator Mount
Short Name := Adv Shield Mount
Description := Increases shield strength by 300%. Reduces size of shield generator by 25%. Requires ship or base size of at least 150Kt.
Code := Gx
Cost Percent := 200
Tonnage Percent := 75
Tonnage Structure Percent := 100
Damage Percent := 0
Shield Percent := 300
Supply Percent := 0
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 150
Comp Family Requirement := 11
Weapon Type Requirement := None
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Number of Tech Req := 5
Tech Area Req 1 := Shields
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Tech Area Req 2 := Physics
Tech Level Req 2 := 3
Tech Area Req 3 := Advanced Military Science
Tech Level Req 3 := 5
Tech Area Req 4 := Applied Research
Tech Level Req 4 := 3
Tech Area Req 5 := Computers
Tech Level Req 5 := 4

This is a steep 400+% increase in performance per kT, and it also cuts 1/3 off the cost per shield point, at the same time. So there is almost never a reason to not use this mount, so there is no tradeoff to decide about. My suggestion would be to make it actually cost more per shield point to use a mount like this, because of the massive shield/kT advantage - so you could get much stronger shields, or have more room to make a more powerful single ship with other components, but it would cost more. As it is, the main choice offered is when to try to get all the required research to achieve the mount - then always use it.

PvK

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Hmm, All the mounts after the 1st shield mount incorporate miniturization. All of them. In fact if you look closely you will see that. Each advanced mount space usage is based on the capabilities of the previous standard (Base Game's) mount sizes. Damage is increased with the idea that the advanced weapons mount in my mod increases the damage 25% to the base weapons and reducing their size 50% to simulate miniturization.

So to simulate Advanced weapons being incorporated into the other advanced mounts - I increased the damage by 50% over the standard base games mounts and reduced the size requirements for each level of mount.

So a Advanced Large mount is 50% smaller than the Large mount. Does 50% more damage than the Large mount and uses 1/2 the supplies of the large mount, cost 50% more than the large mount and also has slightly increased range.

Long Name := Large Ship Mount
Short Name := Large Mount
Description := Larger sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Requires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := L
Cost Percent := 150
Tonnage Percent := 150
Tonnage Structure Percent := 200
Damage Percent := 200
Supply Percent := 200
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 400
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship

Long Name := Advanced Large Ship Mount
Short Name := Adv Large Mount
Description := Advanced weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Increases the range of the weapon by 1. Requires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := Lx
Cost Percent := 200
Tonnage Percent := 100
Tonnage Structure Percent := 200
Damage Percent := 250
Supply Percent := 100
Range Modifier := 1
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 400
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship
Number of Tech Req := 4
Tech Area Req 1 := Physics
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Military Science
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Tech Area Req 3 := Applied Research
Tech Level Req 3 := 3
Tech Area Req 4 := Computers
Tech Level Req 4 := 3

Long Name := Heavy Ship Mount
Short Name := Heavy Mount
Description := Heavy sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 3 times. Requires a vehicle size of at least 800kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := H
Cost Percent := 200
Tonnage Percent := 200
Tonnage Structure Percent := 300
Damage Percent := 300
Supply Percent := 300
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 800
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship

Long Name := Advanced Heavy Ship Mount
Short Name := Adv Heavy Mount
Description := Advanced weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 3 times. Increases the range of the weapon by 1. Requires a vehicle size of at least 800kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := Hx
Cost Percent := 250
Tonnage Percent := 150
Tonnage Structure Percent := 300
Damage Percent := 350
Supply Percent := 150
Range Modifier := 1
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 800
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship
Number of Tech Req := 4
Tech Area Req 1 := Physics
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Military Science
Tech Level Req 2 := 5
Tech Area Req 3 := Applied Research
Tech Level Req 3 := 3
Tech Area Req 4 := Computers
Tech Level Req 4 := 4

The cost thing I have already explained - you can cripple the AI if you make things too pricey. Standard warships are cranked out in 4-6 turns. With the mounts in this mod and with the current prices- that increased to 10 - 15 turns depending. So you have a more expensive components with more powerful capabilities but The trade off is cost and longer build time vs. more power.

Tech-
Computerized components has alot to do with miniturization. The more advanced computing becomes the smaller the targeting system, components, electronics etc.. can be. The idea being that advanced computerization all allows for more advanced electronics and allows for more compact designs.

Understanding of Physics has alot to do with miniturization, capabilities, and power. An example of a real world issue -the problem with the Air Borne Laser on the 747, too big, special mounting and materials to withstand the tempatures, limited shots due to resupply issues.

Applied research represents the next level of scientific research and development to achieve miniturization and design ships with these types of mounts.

Advanced Military Science - kind fo self explanatory, however I think it is an under used tech branch that seemed perfect for mount technology.

After playing a game for 114 turns using these mounts, I havent found any massive technological leaps in the game. I will continue to test with this concern in mind.

I will be interested to see how you feel after using the mod. If you get the chance.

[ September 03, 2002, 22:00: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Regarding the 'trade off' issue of using the mount vs. not using the mount, this sort of jumped out of the Last message:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps the mounts could incorporate a slower reload time... the smaller the mount, the harder it would be to cool it (and so a longer time to cool) resulting in a poor reload rate?!

In this way, the weapons still become say 400% better, but with a reload time of 2, they are actually (on average) 200% better. This might solve a few of the quandries posed.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Ya, it would be nice to be able to mod reload time in a mount, too. Although since some weapons components have different reload times, the degree of effect would be different depending on the base reload time.

AJC, I see. Your idea is that components should all get smaller and more powerful as technology in general advances, and in general players are expected to almost always use mounts once they achieve them, and to all try to develop these mounts. So, that makes sense now that I get the design intent. (I was looking at them from the perspective of a mod trying to add more choices and balanced tradeoffs, which is a different design intent.)

PvK

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

yes !- thats exactly right - I didnt see much point in trying to reproduce DeathStalkers mount, he has everything I could ever think of plus the kitchen sink in his! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I wanted something that gave improvements to existing components without modding a whole series of new components. I wanted to preserve the base game.

DS took care of multiple choices in the manner your thinking. The only issue I have is some of the mounts are not really worth using, and the biggest for me was that the AI wont use all of them. In the mount window the list is overwhelming. Too many choices , and I usually love many choices.

I was also interested in controlling what gets miniturized . Some of the components that I cannot rationally see being miniturized ; a bridge, crew qtrs, cargo bays, vehicle and unit launchers , ship yards, repair bays and colony modules. Some of the stellar manipulation components I did miniturize - however I felt that components that destroys planets , create planets/stars, create /destroy storms , create or destroy nebulas or any component that destroys star systems in any fashion should not be miniturized for game balance.

[ September 04, 2002, 20:18: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps these components would not get smaller due to miniaturization, but cryogenic freezing and suspended animation should decrease their masses. These could be mounts that you get when you research biology (which is horribly lacking in my opinion).

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not sure how would this reduce their mass? a million people takes up the same amount of space frozen or not.

I guess you dont have to feed them when they are frozen, however I always assumed this is what a colony module was all about anyway,
because the numbers of population being transported in the base game is beyond ridiculous and to actually transport that many people you would HAVE to put them into a cryogenic sleep or build a massive generation ship.

One of the things I didnt like in the DS mount mod was that a destroyer could become a colony ship because the colony module is miniturized.

In my mind Colonyships should be the biggest things flying in space...carrying whole populations , construction equipment and their native ecosystems on board.

[ September 04, 2002, 20:54: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Well, there are definitely numerous ways of looking at the problem of people transport in the SEIV world. With no cryogenics described verbatum I thought there would be some wiggle room to make things interesting. The mount wouldn't bring the component mass/volume to 25% or zero or anything drastic, because as you said:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So the colony start up equipment would still need to be pressent, including (potentially) a whole dome structure for planets with the wrong atmosphere. The mount would simply 'trim down' the tonnage. For example the ecosystems could also be on ice; the nutrient recycling systems, air scrubbers, all other things need to support actively metabolizing life forms could be significantly reduced if not eliminated. As a result you could perhaps reduce the tonnage by 10 to 20%. This is a subtle change, but that could be 4 to 8 extra engines, or perhaps more supply pods for improved range.

Likewise the crew quarters, if the crew is usually hybernating, then the life support requirements would be far more high output/short term mechanisms rather than long term/low output machines. So the mass could probably drop on both the crew quarters and life support system by perhaps 10 - 20%. But maybe the cost of these structures would increase a bit due to the specialized viving/reviving systems.

Anyway, just some thoughts, use 'em if they're helpful to you.

cheers
jimbob

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

interesting thoughts - Maybe reducing it enough to allow for additional resupply on a colony ship hull would work
I will have to ponder that thought for a few... and experiment....see what I can come up with...

Another possibility is a mount that doesnt neccessarily reduce size - but reduces the cost of the colony module.

[ September 05, 2002, 19:40: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

You might want to check out the Proportions mod; population in that has to be moved 1M at a time.

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

Right on both points (capnQ and AJC). Perhaps the kT size could stay the same, but it can carry more people (I guess this could be far more significant in the Proportions mod)

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

well I added a colony mount -
its on the PBW or you can get it in the mod forum. (see original link in this thread).

I added the colony mount to the end of the mount list - so it wont mess up any games in progress.

The Ai uses all the mounts. This mod does not affect the base games tech tree and does not add any components to the base game.

v5
1. Fixed description of computer mounts to remove old antivirus description.
2. Added colony module. (Idea is that nanobots allow colonies to leave with less equipment and supplies which reduces the size and cost of the colony module).

[ September 09, 2002, 00:05: Message edited by: AJC ]

Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
 

v5.1

I just uploaded a slightly adjusted mod - the intro screen adjusted to indicate that the mod is loading from the correct folder.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000002