Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Assigning and creating battle strategies is a very confusing area for us newbies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

I think a large part of the problems lies at MM’s doorstep in that they are not clear on just how the buttons operate.

In the Strategies section of Empire Status (F4), there is a confusing array of button states... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

So, can someone help me with the following…

1) a unhighlighted button is the default state & the description describes the default state...yes/no?
2) a highlighted button with no change in description is the opposite of the default state...yes/no?
3) a highlighted button with a change in description is what...the opposite of what is described?

Confused to say the least... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Oh and a unlighlighted button which will change its description is not the default state...?

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

In the left column, the lighted dot is the strategy which you are currently looking at the entries for; anything you change will only affect this strategy.

On the Firing tab, Do not use type priorties = unlit; Use type before targeting = lit (this is like a light switch that has On and Off written on it; whichever message is showing is active); under Don't fire on, types that are lit will be ignored when choosing targets.

On the Launching tab, the lit entry is how many fighters your carriers and planets will try to launch in one group.

On the Formation tab, the lit types will break formation, and the unlit types won't.

Many of the default settings on Strategies are Really Bad Ideas; changing them is one of the first things I do when I assign a strategy to a design.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Okay http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Under the Damage tab we have a button called "Damage target until all weapons gone"

Which is the on/off state?

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Same thing.

Phoenix-D

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Never looked at the edit strategy window, but now that I did, I have one thought: NEEDS CANCEL BUTTON!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

I asked...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To which Phoenix-D responded...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To which I ask "Same thing what?"

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

as the previous post. Little dot = on, no dot = off

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

I think this area needs to be explored more... Or are we all holding back our strategies here... I am holding mine back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Yes, I can understand and appreciate wanting to keep a strategy or strategies secret. A lot of effort, testing, trial and error went into learning it. And to divulge it may mean that the next game may be more difficult to win.

That being said, I think there is a difference between
a) How the strategy menu actually works and
b) The particular strategy a player employs.

Under a), for example, we have choices under the "Tageting Priority Order" of the Firing tab, but how does the computer implement our choices?

It does not seem to be in order of possibility like the Primary/Secondary Choices under the Movement Tab.

What algorithym does the computer use? Do the four choices we make have equal weight or does the computer assign values to our choices like:
First choice 40%
Second choice 30%
Third choice 20%
Fourth choice 10%

Any comments?

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

"Damage until all weapons gone" needs more explanation: I forgot about that in my Last post. When that is lit, the percentages above it are ignored; your ship won't change targets until all the current target's weapons are destroyed. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm pretty sure those are "tie-breakers":

The ship will pick a ship that matches the first priority; if there's more than one potential target that matches, it picks the one that also fits the second priority, and so on down the list. If more than one target matches all four choices, I think it's random.

It's hard to make specific suggestions for what strategy settings to use, because it will vary depending on your ship designs, your opponents' ship designs, and your preferred playing style.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

capnq says says in regards to Targeting Priority Order
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I can see the computer operating that way. It would be nice of MM to "inform us" so we newbies can make some intelligent decisions about our battle strategies.

So what is the difference between "largest" and "strongest" ... tonnage and weapons? If tonnage, is it total tonnage (ship + components) or ship tonnage (the shell of the ship).

Also, if I wanted my fleet to avoid attacking a planet, should I avoid largest and strongest?

And how does "Do Not Use Type Priorities" fit into all this? I have put planets on the bottom of the list, and the missile fleet still seems to prefer it over all other targets using
-Has weapons.
-Fastest
-Strongest
-Nearest

Like, it still keeps pounding away at the planet even though it's weapons are destroyed and other "preferred targets" like carriers, colonists, transports are available.

LOL...lots of questions...but I know I am not alone in this...

MM should step in here and give us some guidance on this.

[ August 19, 2002, 22:03: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One of the best moves I ever made was to go into DefaultStrategies.txt and change the whole works to the way I wanted it. Now any changes I make are mere refinements to a system I like. A big time saver. Oddly enough, the only thing you can't change (except in-game) is the damage percentages-- no entries in the text file.

Kim

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Grandpakim has this to say:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What a great idea! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But we newbies have a problem. We may know what we want, but we do not know how to get there! Even worse, we do not know if what we want is even possible to achieve. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Until we have some understanding how the "Strategies" menu works, we can only flounder around... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

I think SE4 loses a lot of players who give up in frustration... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif and then move on to other games where they are given enough information to make intelligent decisions (which makes them feel better) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Okay guys….here’s the way I see it.

We have a Strategies menu that is not simple because of its many permutations and combinations.

That is difficult enough. But it is also difficult to test, because I understand the “Simulator” of the Designs tab (F3) leaves much to be desired.

So we can stumble around with me thinking the world is the top half of the shell of a living tortoise (India belief), you guys thinking the world is flat and a few knowledgable people thinking it is round.

So I suggest we do something about it.

So here are my thoughts for you to slash, bash, agree with or do with as you wish.

1) We need to get Malfador Machinations attention:

I propose to get it by starting a new thread entitled

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The first message of the thread would say something like this…

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So when MM gets this petition from 50 or 100 people then they will have to at least take notice.

It will also serve to clarify whether there is actually a need for the information before we go much further.

2) We decide who is to “chair” the presentation. My own personal choice is Fyron, but being a newbie, there could be a better person. We would, of course, require the agreement of the individual of our choice. By “chair”, I mean "hearing our requests" and putting them into some sort of organized format. Just asking for information, may not be enough…only we know what we need to know.

3) The “chairperson” will then approach MM with the petition and his presentation for information.

If you guys want, I can get the ball rolling by creating the petition.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you have "Do not use type priorities" set (unlit), the priority list is utterly ignored; it doesn't matter how you arrange the list if you haven't turned on "Use type before targeting" (lit).

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

If you have a ship carrying both fighter pods and direct fire weapons - how do you set the strats to entice the ship to launch fighters first?

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Hmmmmmmmm...

Guess no one wants to get the anwers from the horse's mouth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Wonder where that phrase came from...a horse cannot talk?

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

capnq replies to the question I put...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I think I got the button thing now. I was kinda confused as to the way MM puts the question/statement.

For example:
-No system to avoid
-Don't Fire on types
-Do not use type priorities

These are all negative states.

A simpler way would be: (for me anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

-Systems avoided
-Fire on types
-Use type priorities

Then the opposite of positive state is negative

Guess 3 university degrees (2 of them post-graduate) with some emphasise on math is no guarantee of not being a doh-doh.

But I would still like to get behind the workings of the menu and discover how the computer makes its decisions.

Like no one was able to answer the other questions I put...

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

OK. Here's a scenario...

I got control of a light cruiser through Espionage/Crew Insurrection.

The cruiser is on the home planet sector with one other light cruiser and a planet with missiles. Other types of ships are there as well, but they are weaponless.

The light cruiser has techology I would like to have. So I need to get it to one of my planets to analyse it's contents.

However on the next turn, it gets pLastered in strategic play by the other cruiser and the planets missiles as it goes onto the attack by approaching these targets.

I don't know what the strategy of the captured cruiser is...the Designs menu (F3) will not show the cruiser and since it is not shown, I cannot change it.

But, I figure maybe I can overlay a fleet strategy over the light cruiser strategy of the ship I captured.

So the fleet strategy (call it Run-away) for this one ship fleet which I am thinking of employing is:

Break formation for "Ships" (unlit) - means it will not break formation and revert to its own strategy but still follow the fleet instructions. Correct Y/N?

Now how do I
a) avoid the planet like the plague?
b) engage the other cruiser on the best possible terms which is on course to attack the cruiser I captured? This is a fight I cannot avoid. So, I need a strategy.

To deal with a) I use the "Don't fire on these ships to highlight "planet" under the Firing tab

With (b), both ships have the same design. So as I see it, the ship which fire first and which happens to be the closest to the other is most likely to win.

But I still need to get away from the planet (because of it's missiles)

So, in the Movement tab, I am thinking of using
-Primary - Don't Get Hurt (which basically means run away)
-Secondary - Point Blank

I understand when the primary stategy is impossible, the secondary strategy comes into play.

So when my captured cruiser runs out of room, it engages the light cruiser away from the planet.

Back to the Firing tab, I set the Targeting Priority Order to
-Has weapons
-Nearest
-Fastest
-Strongest

Does this make sense... It does to me... Yet somehow I feel it will not work...because my understanding of what the settings mean are different from the computers.

I haven't tried this yet. So do I try again and again until I get the combination of settings which will cause my captured ship (and any future ships captured on a home planet) to behave in the way I want.

So much easier to have a concrete idea of what the settings mean and what they do.

[ August 21, 2002, 20:11: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

A poor User Interface design choice is to use check boxes that change their label based on the state of the check box. Also another poor design choice is (as you pointed out) having the default state being a negative.

Proper design would use a radio button to switch between two different descriptions (labels) or one label describing a positive state and default it to on or off.

These design decisions are due to the fact that this is that it is a 1-man show. Having the programmer make, review, and fix UI design decisions only puts one set of biased eyes on the issue. Having the Users of SEIV checking the UI flaws is not the best situation either...

Edit: and just so I am not too negative, I am absof*****glutely addicted to SEIV so any UI flaws are only cracks in the icing on a very tasty cake!

[ August 21, 2002, 21:54: Message edited by: Hank ]

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Hank states:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Finally someone who understands what I am complaining about! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am addicted too. I am not trashing the game. If I had a choice between this game with all its warts, and no SE4, there is no choice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Well...here's the results of the scenario

On the first combat turn the captured cruiser runs away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On all the following turns, it attacks the planet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Changing the Secondary Movement Strategy in the "Movement" tab to any other selection results in the same thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Do you guys actually like doing all this multiple testing? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm... how did I get involved in this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Secondary should be set to don't get hurt as well.

That way you will retreat...

Also make sure you set your planet value to 0% on the damage screen. This way it will avoid the planet.

And did you know if you do not put any weapons on a ship and set it to ram... it will ram.

This way you will reteat and the missle ship will come to you

IF you wish to engage the missle ship set your primary to maxium range and your secondary to do not get hurt... try it out and see what happens.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Hi Fyron:

In your quote, you did leave out a detail...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As I said, you were my own personal choice. What wasn't said was that I personally found your communications to be particularly concise, cogent, and informative.

So I/we were not planning to railroad you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It appears the situation is moot...as no one is taking up the gauntlet with me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

I wasn't expecting to be railroaded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most of the answers are either "It depends" or "No-one knows for sure". <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I personally don't enjoy testing things just for the sake of testing them. I just play the game, try my best guesses, and if they don't work, try something different. After owning SE IV for over a year and a half, I can't really remember how and when I learned most of the things that I do know.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

capnq has this to say:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And tesco samoa had this to say earlier in the thread:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am beginning to feel there are at least 2 approaches to using the battle strategy menu:

1) The easy going player who learns as he goes, who eventually gets most things right with time (but not all?), and may or may not know how he got there.

2) The more determined player who really wants to understand the nuances of the strategies menu, so much so that he is willing to spend a lot of time testing the various options in order to apply the correct selection to whatever scenario he is confronted with.

All things being equal, I would think the second type of player would win more battles and more games.

In both cases, but probably more so in the second, the knowledge is so hard won that there is an understandable reluctance to share it.

And maybe the reluctance even extends so far as to not being interested in having MM explain how the strategies menu works because then the playing field would be levelled and the advantages gained through 1) experience and 2) effort (testing) would be negated.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Hmmmmmmmm….

Here’s something for us to think about.

If most of us do not understand how the strategies menu works and the one’s that do are being quiet about it, then we cannot expect any significant improvement in how the AI conducts itself in a battle.

Basically, we do not even know what to ask for in order to improve the strategies menu because it is so little understood.

It is only when the “something” is no longer a secret but becomes universally known and understood that giant strides are made in advancing our knowledge and the application of that knowledge.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

check out THIS thread for a couple of gems... thay you may already know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Tesco samoa had this to say about the scenario I presented

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">=========================
Just for the record...I tend to be in the first Category (easygoing) which I mentioned earlier in the thread and move on.

So on the second attempt at Espionage/Crew Insurrection I was able to get another light cruiser in empty space.
=========================
But I did make a copy of the game, so am able to report on the results of amending the strategy.

I didn't mention in the previous thread that I did try setting both the primary and secondary to "Don't Get Hurt". Sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif The results were the same.

What I suspect is happening is this...the computer for some reasons decides that the fleet movement orders are impossible to carry out and reverts to the light cruisers movement orders.

About setting the planet value to 0% is not possible in my Version of the game (stock SE4 Gold, 1.78). The minimum allowed is 10%.

But I did try 10%...no change.

I am not sure what ramming has to do with this situation as both light cruisers have Anti-proton beams II. Apologies again...should have made it clear they were not missile ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

To make it easier on me and others who play a simultaneous game, is there a way to simplify matters? Right now, in order to test a simultaneous game, I need to:
1) Load the files into the savegame folder
2) Set up the Run-away strategy again (not just amend it).

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

i don't know then...

I usually attack planets with troops and if I have no troops I blockade it...

And If I want to gas it then I gas it...

The battle tatics is an area that is the least understood area of the game.... I think most players have about 5 tatics that they understand and stick with it.

Point blank against talismans.
Don't get hurt to blockade
Max weapons for Missles
Capture planets for troop transports
max or optimize range against none talismans...

I hate gassing planets by mistake as well...

I do have a few variations of the above tatics... But they do not stray too far...

Also I have my ships break formation on everything... There is a really old thread explaining why i do that... Sorry do not remember what it is called...

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mr. Ed can talk.

I say go ahead and send MM your message. It never hurts to ask.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey...the first positive response http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

About the scenario I presented...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is the above true?

And why?

Is the reason, "I have a weapon, so I should attack?"

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

tesco samoa says:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmmmmmmmm

Wouldn't it be nice to know the workings of the strategies menu so as to allow a more flexible response? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

It would indeed...

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Just discovered the "New Poll" button!

So, I have decided to take a poll on who is interested/disinterested in having MM give us information on the Strategies Menu. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What we do next will depend upon the results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Hi guys:

Have a question about the placement of the poll...

As a newbie, for the first 2 weeks or so, I more or less limited myself to what was showing on my screen. There was so much stuff to digest that I just did not wander much...

The position of the poll is fast approaching the place where newbies (if they are like me) will not find it.

Now, we can put inane Messages in it to put it up to the top of the list where new arrivals are more likely to find it.

A better way would be to have it positioned at the top among some of the other Messages there.

So how do I go about doing it? Is there someone, I need to contact? If so, who? And how?

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

You need to bump the thread periodically. It _could_ be made sticky (stuck at the top) by a moderator, but that isn't a very good idea. The number of sticky threads needs to be kept at a minimum.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Actually, I've already e-mailed a moderator for this very purpose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

BTW - if you just want to change the strategy for a particular ship, you can click on the "strategy" button (looks like a chess pawn). Avoids having to create a one-ship fleet and worry about ship orders vs. fleet orders...

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sigh.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I must be doing something wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Captured another ship, selected it, but the strategy button does not light up.

We're talking about the pawn in the upper right hand corner, right?

The only time the "pawn" lights up for me is when I select a fleet. It's never lit up when I've selected a single ship.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

The "chess pawn" (hotkey H) is for setting fleet formations and strategies; it won't be active if you've selected an individual ship.

You can make a fleet with only one ship in it, though.

I'm frankly baffled as to why tbontob is getting the results he's reporting; AFAIK, his technique ought to work.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Yeah, sorry all - I got confused; I thought I'd changed strategies for single ships using the pawn button, but I just re-checked and the pawn button only works for fleets. Kinda silly, really; you SHOULD be able to set strategies on an individual ship basis. Not that you'd do it often (who wants to remember that some ships of a particular design have a different strategy?), but still it'd be quite convenient. Especially since we've seen that fleet strategy doesn't always take priority over ship strategy. Of course, many people have noticed that the chosen strategy doesn't always take precedence - sometimes a ship/fleet will just decide to do something they're not supposed to do at all...

I'm stumped on this one as well. The "don't get hurt" orders should have sent your ship to a corner, regardless of armament... unless... did the ship have PDC on it? Or just APB? If it had PDC, once the planet (or the ship) launched missiles, your ship might (MIGHT! - I could be wrong on this one, but someone else mentioned that fighters launched by a planet had a similar effect) have moved in range of the missiles so the PDC could fire, and by the time those missiles were destroyed, more missiles were launched, and moving in range of those made the planet a target for APB... and eventually you're in battle, regardless of "Don't Get Hurt" orders.

Another idea - try making "fastest" the highest targeting priority; the enemy ship should usually be faster than the planet...

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Near the beginning of this thread, Grandpakim says:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Anybody know where the damage percentages are kept?

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

Empire Options &gt; Strategies &gt; Damage

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but the issue is in what file are the damage percentiles placed (if at all). Like the raw data for the default strategies are found in "DefaultStrategies.txt" but this file does not address damage percentages at all.

Re: Understanding battle strategies...newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since they're displayed in a spinner, the defaults are probably hardcoded. I'm not sure where the game stores changes you make during play.