Early weaonry?
 

Just wonder what everyone thought was the best weapon to go for early in the game. You seem to have a pleathora (sp?) of choices..

DUC's - Fast and cheap
Missiles - more expensive
Energy Stream
Energy Pulse - These seem to similar... I think one is better than the other so why the heck would you get the other?
Torpedos?

Thanks,

Ken

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Energy Stream (anti proton beams or APBs) and Energy Pulse (meson bLasters or MBs) are NOT the same. Meson BLasters are smaller, don't drop in damage at range, have shorter range. They also have fewer tech levels, so even though they start off more expensive to research in the long run they are cheaper.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Eventually APBs will outstrip Meson BLastrs.

However, for a low-aggression race (say a Religious race which plans on relying on the Talisman to produce hits), the Meson BLaster makes much, much more sense.

Why?

Volume of fire. MEsons and APBs, at maximum range, get about the same damage per kT at early tech levels (possibly favoring the APB by a narrow margin). However, in 60kT of space, you canmount EITEHR two APB's ... or three Meson BLasters.

This is a key issue; if you have a low chance to hit, every extra time you can at least TRY, increases your overall odds of scoring SOME damage. SOME damage in small packets is better than NO damage in large packets, right?

And that 60kT comparison isn't made idly, either. That's about the weaponry space for a Frigate or perhaps armored Destroyer -- or a small sattelite. Those are the sorts of ships EARLY game fighting will center around, n'est-ce pas?

Re: Early weaonry?
 

I agree, APB's will eventually outstrip MB's (maybe a moot point as most people research physics to get phased energy weaponry pretty quickly).

My tactic is to research combat support and sensors pretty early on. This way, I can use DUC V's or MB's to dangerous effect due to the bonus to hit. DUC's are cheap to research so a couple of these on a frigate (supported by a couple of PDC's if you are fighting a missile heavy race or armour is fighting another close assault-type race) is going to be a hard combination to beat

The big driver for early weapon choice is configuring your ships to take on whatever is facing you. I generally start with missiles and against a human player or some of the TDM races (the Pyrochette or the Colonials come to mind), this will not work for long as they come at you with missiles and DUC's/APB's respectively and stacks of PDC's. You cant really hurt each other that much.

So, for example, against the pyrochette I will retrofit my ships to DUC armed close assault ships with stacks of PDC's. Against the Colonials, I will reconfigure with combat sensors, APB's and heavy armour. Against a human, it really depends

[ August 20, 2002, 09:06: Message edited by: Growltigga ]

Re: Early weaonry?
 

GT, that's why you get 35% racial combat bonuses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Most good players don't get PPBs immediately. They do what you just described (minus the MBs).

Re: Early weaonry?
 

I dont play with any racial combat bonuses. I prefer being the 'common denominator' against which everybody else is benchmarked

And Fyron, I am not a good player so tend to charge ahead for PPB's

PS Fyron, go to bed

[ August 20, 2002, 09:12: Message edited by: Growltigga ]

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Javaslinger,
As for torpedos,
I belive they have a bonus to hit but are not as strong.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Gryphin - good to see you boyo, I have now discovered the love of torpedoes, there is nothing quite as satisfying as blowing the buggeration out of your opponents with quantum torpedoes..

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Torpedoes have a tohit bonus???? I didn't know that; I thought it was only that way in some mods!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Torps don't have a bonus in vanilla SEIV, at least v1.67.

Depending on game setup MBs and PPBs can be a tossup for what to research. With high (or even medium) tech cost, shields are so expensive to research that phased shields will likely be very long in coming. Of course, most players will counter PPBs with stacks of Armor III, which has better protection/kt than anything below Shields lvl 8 (against phased weapons). (This tactic is dangerous when Crystalline races are in the area.)

60kt of MBs do slightly more damage at max range compared to PPBs (105/100), while using 40% less in supplies. This can extend the range of a fleet greatly. Of course, PPBs have higher damage at close range (105/120), but then the opponent could pack on Ripper Beams, which do 150 damage out to range 3. Races with Ripper Beams are also likely to have an advantage in speed, because of the Propulsion tech req for High-Energy Discharge Weapons.

[dissertation] For that matter, races electing to research PPBs will likely have a research deficit in other areas. Those points could be put into Astrophysics and Stellar Harnessing for Solar Sails, or Propulsion, to get an edge in speed; they could be sunk into shields, to get Phased Shields; Armor gets a +30% to defense pretty cheaply; Combat Support gets you ECM; Combat Sensors makes you hit more often than the PPBs; etc., ad nauseum.

PPBs are powerful, but not exactly uber-weapons. They have counters, which have come out more quickly since the advent of the PPB as the PBW weapon-du-jour. Playstyles evolve, and next we'll see the Graviton Hellbore as the ultimate weapon. (Okay, maybe not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Top-end APBs definitely are the weapon to go for; but by the time you can afford to get APB XIII (where range outstrips MB VI) or IX (where damage finally catches up to MB VI), you're probably in the late mid-game, or the end-game (or you're so far behind in other areas that you're near your own end-game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). APBs also are 50% larger than MBs, so you need to get APB XI or XII to get close to the same dmg/kt at the same range.
[/dissertation]

I hope I didn't kick off another uber-weapon debate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Question: what use is a graviton hellbore?

Re: Early weaonry?
 

GT: to bore the h**l outta gravity, what else?

Java: try different things, find some method/tactic/setup(s) that seem to fit your style. I still haven't found that special setup...yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ August 20, 2002, 15:01: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Range 8 (at max tech, obviously). Of course, the damage is really attenuated at that distance, but if you put it on a weapon platform (or even a base), with mounts that provide even more range and/or combat bonuses, it's pretty effective.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Due to less punch per shot, MB are less effective than APB or PPB against ships with lots of crystalline armor and/or emissive armor.
Large mounts attenuates it, but one can always use custom mounts.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

I like DUC V early in the game. However, I will use CSMs or organic Parasites if my opponent does not have adequate point defenses on his ships. DUCs V will server you quite well until you get PPBs or Null Space weapons. Null Space are costly in Min & Rad, so they will build slower, but a must if you face Organic and Crystalline armor. Might be more important if players use the improved Emissive armor more. If you opponent uses Shields, PPBs are the good replacement for DUCs. A couple of the Organic weapons have a nice Damage/KT ratio as well. I have never cared much for the Graviton Hellbore weapon because at long range they do so poorly, but max level at 225K research, might make this a good weapon against emissive armor, if you can close to Point Blank: 145 Damage - 30 Emissive is nice compared to PPB (60 - 30). Quantum Torps look nice against emissive. Late in the game, you will want WMGs against emissive armor. I really like the improvement of Emissive armor as Dam/KT is not as import as Dam/Hit is now a consideration to be balanced against it.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Graviton Hellbores have no use. They do about half the damage of APBs, and have the same range.

Emmisive Armor is easily countered by mounts. A large mount PPB V does 120-100 dmg. That can breach Emmissive Armor in a single shot.

As such, Torpedoes, like Graviton Hellbores, are pretty useless.

The key to APBs is that you don't research them in the early-mid game. Use DUCs, then PPBs, then APBs + Shield Depleters (not Disruptors). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Early weaonry?
 

"For that matter, races electing to research PPBs will likely have a research deficit in other areas. Those points could be put into Astrophysics and Stellar Harnessing for Solar Sails, or Propulsion, to get an edge in speed; they could be sunk into shields, to get Phased Shields; Armor gets a +30% to defense pretty cheaply; Combat Support gets you ECM; Combat Sensors makes you hit more often than the PPBs; etc., ad nauseum."

PPBs cost the same amount to research, total, as Meson BLasters.

Phoenix-D

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really don't get the graviton hellbore. By the time you research physics 3, and gravitational weapons, you should have a better weapon.

Maybe if graviton hellbores skipped shields and armor, but we have null space for that. Maybe quad damage to armor? What I'm trying to do is apply some technobabble to this weapon -- it's focused gravitions, it should do damage to anything that has mass, maybe armor has more density and is affected more? Meh, I'm just being stupid here. Maybe if graviton hellbore was earlier on the research tree, or a racial tech, or I dunno if you found it as a ruin tech when everyone else had APB4, you'd be pretty bad ***, but ...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't scoff at the disruptor out of hand, if the opponent has shield regenerators or crystaline armor, you may want to take out shield generators as well as drain the shields, or theyll be back up again the next combat round

Re: Early weaonry?
 

I have found that missiles often have a devastating effect on the AI very early in the game. A common AI ship design is the DUC I escort/frigate...which is completely ineffective when faced with missile fire in tactical combat...and can be very deadly in strategic as well if you have been careful of your combat strategy. Even against other missile races they hold their own - especially if you research Point defense early, which many AI races do not.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

My experience has been the same.

Put missiles on Maximum Weapons Range (Primary) and Don't Get Hurt (Secondary) and watch the carnage begin in strategic combat.

The only drawback is going through a warp point and finding the enemy next to you or facing a vastly superior fleet (then they run out of space before they can shoot off enough missiles to destroy them).

[ August 20, 2002, 20:49: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oops. I stand corrected. I was thinking PPB was 10000/lvl.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bhaa, several TDM AI with medium/high bonus, Colonials for example, are missile-impregnable after turn 20.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shield regenerators are not very useful in the normal game. 1 LM Shield Depelter V (300 dmg, 30 KT) will drop the shields regenerated by 12 Shield Regenerator Vs (300 shield points, 240 KT). That is no reason to use Shield Disruptors. As for Crystalline Armor, the Shield Depleter knocks out the shields that the previous APB hit raised up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif By the time you have APB XIIs, CA isn't much of a threat, esp. with large and heavy -mounted APBs.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

I disagree wholeheartly. You praise LM depletor that can drain 300 shield points but dismiss out of hand a weapon that for twice size can kill once and for all 3 generators - up to 1100 shield points ! And when you fight CA ships, how do you design ships for startegic combat ? Every APB is preceded by shield depletor ? That's very ineffective use of weaponry in all the most important earlier rounds of battle when shields are still high and you will waste several APB.

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bhaa, several TDM AI with medium/high bonus, Colonials for example, are missile-impregnable after turn 20.[/QB][/quote]

Too right and this means you need to revert to using DUCs/APBs and armoured ships against them. It means you are going to take casualities going toe to toe with them.

It is a pity that more of the TDM AI are more adaptable. The Pyrochette are buggers to a missile using race as they also use missiles and pack in PDCs. DUCS and PDCs work nicely against them and I wish they would react to being whomped this way by going the same route, ie replacing CSM's with APBs/DUCs whatever

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When Master Belizarius made Pyrochette AI, he wanted them to be different from other races, to make game more interesting. Thus Pyrochette' thematic weapononry are Temporal weapons. Unfortunately, low level TDB are very weak and Pyrochette has to use CSM for rather long time. But eventually they will have some dangerous ships with TDB, shield accelerators and tachion cannons.

[ August 21, 2002, 11:33: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Oh joy, thanks for telling me that Oleg. It does cheer me up massivley to realise that the Pyrochette, who are buggers enough anyhow, are going to get even more nasty later on in the game.

Thankfully, I havn't yet survived very long enough in a TDM game to worry about that

Re: Early weaonry?
 

Can somebody explain to me precisely what emissive armour does now (in 1.78). The note in the patch Version history was incredibly vague.

Mark

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And fires every 3 rounds. Depleters fire every round, and have longer range. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif A LM Disrupter V only does that at point-blank range. It is also much more expensive than Delpeters. 2 LM Depleter Vs can knock out 1800 shields (300 each, for 3 rounds) at up to range 6 in the same time that a LM Disrupter V can knock out 1125 shield points (3 Phased Shield Generator Vs, 40 hit points each) at only point blank range. At range 4, it does nothing at all. It can only do 30 damage to shield generators at that point, and, unless it has been changed, partial "special" damage is ignored. This is over the course of a battle, not just the first round.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To be honest, I have never fought a competent opponent that used Crystalline Tech. If I did, I would probably just put 2 or 3 Depleters on my ship in the front, knocking out all shields. Then, the APBs would be more than enough to destroy the CA, unless you used 14 CAs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Since this is purely theoretical, it might be better to go ahead and use those Disrupters against Crystalline opponents. At this point, I really don't know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And fires every 3 rounds. Depleters fire every round, and have longer range. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif A LM Disrupter V only does that at point-blank range. It is also much more expensive than Delpeters. 2 LM Depleter Vs can knock out 1800 shields (300 each, for 3 rounds) at up to range 6 in the same time that a LM Disrupter V can knock out 1125 shield points (3 Phased Shield Generator Vs, 40 hit points each) at only point blank range. At range 4, it does nothing at all. It can only do 30 damage to shield generators at that point, and, unless it has been changed, partial "special" damage is ignored. This is over the course of a battle, not just the first round.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But, once the shots fire ... the disruptor wins, because it does ALL 1125 shield-loss, AND some internal-hull damage, in one fell swoop. It would take two turns for the Depleters to match that.

The range is an issue, however, if you're closing to point-blank anyway (for whatever reason) ...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To be honest, I have never fought a competent opponent that used Crystalline Tech. If I did, I would probably just put 2 or 3 Depleters on my ship in the front, knocking out all shields. Then, the APBs would be more than enough to destroy the CA, unless you used 14 CAs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Since this is purely theoretical, it might be better to go ahead and use those Disrupters against Crystalline opponents. At this point, I really don't know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not all shields on a crystalline-armored target. All shields the target ship starts the round with. IF the generators are still live, however, then every shot has some of it's energy siphoned back into shields, to resist the next shot. Disruptors, however, remove the shields entirely -- and thus, also remove the Crystalline Armor's special ability entirely.

If they need to fire more than once in a combat, you're either outnumbered, or otherwise doomed already. The Disruptors could have a 30-round recycle rate; the idea is, only their first shot matters. After that, there shouldn't be shield generators LEFT on the enemy ship.

Note, in games like P&N, wiht the HEavy Shield components (200kT, generates 3000 shields, regenerates 100 per round), one depleter would need 15 turns to drop that shield, and there'd still be 100 shields regenerated each round after that.

One disruptor doing 40 damage would need 5 shots, and there'd be -no- regenerating shields. Same time in total, yes (15 rounds), but: 5 disruptors would then do in one round, what would take TEN depletors a single round to do. So which costs more, 10 depletors, or 5 disruptors?

Range issues aside, ofc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Early weaonry?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Against a single target, maybe. But, battles are often fought with lots of ships on each side. In that case, the Depleters, able to fire at 3x as many ships, win out.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like max range better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm... please reread what I posted on this.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As I said before, disruptors can only fire on 1/3 the number of ships as depleters can. This is a very crucial crutch in large fleet battles.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We were not discussing mods, you know. Those tend to completely change the balance of things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm... 5 disruptors cost a lot more than 10 depletors.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is one of the most important points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif