The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Let's define some terms first insofar as they may apply to the tournament:

1) Illegal - an action or non-action that contravenes the rules of the game.
2) Unethical - an action or non-action which is not illegal (i.e. there is no specific rule against it), but it is something which is generally frowned upon.

I went to the game site and found little to guide a players conduct.

For example: Communication...what is permitted?
a) Only Messages which are allowed through the game interface.
b) Any kind including e-mail, telephone, face to face etc.

a) above would seem to be the fairest but there is the question of discovering the infraction (very difficult), and enforcement.

So b) would seem to be the applicable standard to be applied...that is any and all kind of communication is permitted.

I have a whole bunch of additional questions, but want to take this step by step...in case I take a wrong turning along the way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Typically for games I ask that there be no specfifc game information (loactions, plans, etc.) sharing prior to making contact in the game. The exception to this might be a team game with predefined teams.

After contact I almost never have problem with email or any other sort of out of game communication. Unless it is some type of special role play game.

The nature of this tournament is quite different than the typical game however. I am inclined to allow email communication even prior to in game contact for these games. Some players may want to cooperate for several rounds in a row in an effort to assist each other late into the tournament. This will be difficult to do if out of game communication prior to in game contact is restricted.

Geoschmo

EDIT: Sorry if I did not definativly answer your question. I will do so beofre the start of the first round so there is no doubt about where everybody stands. If anyone cares to make their opinion known one way or the other please do so.

[ August 23, 2002, 18:25: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Geo once posted a fairly long set of guidelines to consider when setting up a PBW game, but darned if I can coax the thread out of the search engine.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunately, the damage may [edit "have"] already been done.

For example...alliances. They may have already formed. Simple ones, like 1) We will not attack each other in this game or 2) when we meet, we immediately enter into a treaty to share resources & research etc. and trade our discoveries. 3) Or worse, you research this area and I'll research another and then immediately give the other our discovery.

And some players may not even have to verbalize the alliance they intend to use...there is just a "understanding" to continue with the type of alliance they used in the past...

[ August 23, 2002, 18:38: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Exacltly. And that's the kind of thing I want to encourage in this tournament. Normally I try to discourage it, but I think it will add a lot to the cutthroat nature of this format.

So I guess I will go ahead and say there is no problem with doing these sorts of things in this game. However no one should assume since I am allowing it and encouraging it here that I support it for all games. You should always defer to the game owner on those sorts of things. And you should ask before you make any of these kinds of pre-arangments in a game.

But for this tournament, it's ok.

Geoschmo

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

So, it would appear to this newbie (i.e. me) that the person's odds to win increase with the size of the alliance he enters into.

The one who either goes it alone or enters one with [edit] only a few members is likely to be a prime target.

[ August 23, 2002, 19:02: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Possibly. But a wise player will not advertise his alliances. So you will not really know who has alliances and who doesn't.

In fact a group that has an known alliance could be come targets themselves of the other players as a whole, rather than allow the alliance to pick off all the single players one at a time they will possibly band together and try to break them up.

Plus, an alliance may not nessecarily help you. Cause the single player facing an alliance doesn't have to beat everybody, only one person. Or they can survive by beating no one and just surviving long enough that some other poor sap on the other side of the quadrant gets it first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT: Not to mention, you could make an alliance before the game, and when the game starts you aren't anywhere near your allies in the galaxy. That would be an uncomfortable position to be in, especially if your alliance is well known to everyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

[ August 23, 2002, 19:19: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes...

But the alliance which numbers approach 10 members (50%), has nothing to lose and everything to gain to encourage the few "holdouts" to join. Better to join a 10 member group than a 4 or 6.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My point exactly, the single players know they have to join an alliance. So the choice is the larger one. And you end up with an imbalance of alliances with the the smaller one having the greater probability of losing one of its members in combat.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree...try fighting off a simultaneous attack by 2 or more empires alone... The larger alliance has more empires and all things being equal, can afford to throw more empires into the conflict.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True and that is the risk you take. However, if your alliance is smaller, then the probability escalates that you will find yourself alone and with the consequence of becoming a prime target. Better then to ally yourself with the larger alliance.

What I am trying to say is the "lone" member is likely to be a sure loser. Therefore, if he wants to stay in the game, he needs to join an alliance. If he picks the wrong one (ie a small one), the odds are greater that he will end up dead than if he had selected the larger one.

So, this may well end up to be a battle of alliances. And when an alliance does beats all the competition, it will then have to breakup and new alliances will have to be formed...and the process starts over again.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Also, the larger alliance has greater resources through trade and sharing technology. Eventually its technology will seriously outstrip the smaller alliance

As I see it, the best chance a small alliance has in beating a larger one is to attack early and hard.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

I have no doubt it will be a battle of who can do the best job of making alliances and playing them off of one another. That's the whole point of the format. It's what I inteded to begin with. I am not sure if you are saying this is a bad thing or what?

If you think that by being in a 10 player alliance you are guaranteeing yourself success, by all means go for it. There will be others that will feel more comfortable with a small alliance of skilled players. Or no pregame alliance at all, prefering to form alliances with those that are close to them in the game and threfore more able to help them effectively. There are different ways to look at the problem. The only way to know for sure is to play. And even then what works in one game will not neccesarily work in another.

Geoschmo

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

that would be the point of this tourney....

Role the dice and go... or turtle...

One or the other... not both... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And alliances have a way of shifting depending on the current situation....

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

I can see arguments from both sides. While I think I would *prefer* a situation where everyone took each game as a separate entiry, I think it;s almost impossible for that to be the case. Grudges will be borne. Friendships will be made. But in the end there can be only one, right :-) Think about the large alliance. Sooner or later that's gotta start breaking down. Who's gonna turn on who? Maybe your friends aren't so friendly after all. Plenty of room for intrigue and rumour spreading. Looking at the list in the S2 tournamnet I have played with probably more than 1/2 the players already. Some I have had strong alliances with in other games. Some I have fought against. I think clearly you will struggle if you try to go it alone in every game, but I think there are many routes to being the eventual champion. Looking forward to this.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually I am not making any judgements as to whether it is a good/bad thing. I am just saying that the lone player is a sure loser and the members in a smaller alliance has a greater probability of losing.

Let's say you have an alliance with 10 members, an alliance with 7 members and 3 loners.

The two alliances will "tend" to look at the loners for a victory. Having fewer resources, research points and ultimately ships and technology, their weakness will invite attack.

Now we have two alliances. Having fewer resources, research points and ultimately ships and technology, the weaker alliance will "invite" an attack on one of its members(because it is weaker").

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I am not saying a 10 member alliance guarantees success...just that it has a greater probability of success than a loner or a smaller alliance.

And those who want to win (this is about winning the game isn't it?), will tend to ally themselves with the larger alliance.

And yes, people have personal preferences...the question is whether their personal preferences will increase or decrease their chances of winning the prize.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

tbontob,
OT: Philosophy
While I understand "about winning".
To me, it is about having fun.
/OT

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Oh, but Gryphin, what is more fun than winning? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Yes, Tbon, your analysis is probably correct for the most part. Of course there are always the loners who will want to go it alone, and will gain pride form being able to, or at least attempting to. But likely they will not survive.

Something else to remember is it is possible you could "hide", stay isolated to a couple systems in an out of the way corner and hope no one notices you. If someone finds you, bluffing is often useful. "Why yes, I have an alliance, he's right over there. No I'm afraid I can't let you go that way, that system is restricted by order of the emporer." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It might not work, but it would be fun to try. And it only has to work long enough for one of the alliances to pick off some other loner, or a weak member of another alliance. Or for that matter to get an alliance to turn on one of it's own. That's always fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Hmmmmm bluffing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Have no experience in that...just played the computer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Shouldn't have said that...maybe the "alliance" will not want me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Geo,
Funny you should ask. I was preparing my Philosophy thread as you were asking.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I strenuously object.

Kim

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Object again.

Kim

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

But I have already joined and will play it through to the end no matter what the house rules-- and Geo, do not let my position influence your decision.
Unlike too many others, I have made a commitment and will never quit because things are not going my way.

Sincerely
Kim

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Grandpakim,

I can totally understand your position. I just feel that this tournament is different enough that the rules should be slightly different.

I don't know how many of you are fans of the "Survivor" Television series. I am slightly ashamed to asy I am thouroughly addicted to it. And that dynamic of constantly shifting alegiances is what I was trying to capture with teh first Survivor tourney. I didn't feel like I captured it quite right, but I think this one comes a bit closer.

Personally I won't bother trying to make any pre arranged alliances. But mostly because I just don't thenk they are practical. It makes more sense to find a few players close to you in the quadrant and band together in my opinion.

But the fact is with 35+ players in the tournament it would be nearly impossible to get a set of rules that everybody likes 100%. So then my objective becomes what is practical, and what can be enforced. I don't want to have to mediate a bunch of disputes, or try to decide whether or not someone was emailing before they met in the game. So I take the easy way out and allow it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

There are already a couple good players I know of that I wish would join but aren't because they don't like the format. That's ok. I will miss having them, but that's their decision.

I would not hold it against you if you chose not to play. But if you choose to play I think you will find that those pre-arranged alliances aren't as good as the people think they are going to be. One thing that was proven time and time again in Survivor 1 was that your alliance is only as good as the weakest player in it.

Geoschmo

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

I think I'm starting to get used to the idea. Like you, I don't think I will make any pre-arranged alliances and I'm beginning to think they may not be that useful anyway. In all the games I've played, supporting your allies is always logistically difficult and often interferes with your own plans. The best alliance is with a neighbor and you will only find that in-game. From there you can find a victim-- and the early games will be lucky to Last to turn 30!

I will not withdraw; my conscience would crucify me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Besides I will have to learn an entirely new philosophy to win (or even do well) in this tournament. And, at my age, that's a good thing. I will be there, loving every minute! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Kim

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

I don't think that large alliances will work very well in this tournament. If the first empire that you meet attacks immediately you won't even get in contact with your allies.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which is why I said,

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But allow a large alliance to establish itself.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I expect this game to be quick and bloody...any comments?

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

[quote]Originally posted by tbontob:

Quote:

I expect this game to be quick and bloody...any comments?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hope so. That's what I was going for when I set it up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

With 35+ players, 20+ rounds, if each game isn't quick and bloody we are going to be very old before the tournament is over.

Geoschmo

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

[quote]Originally posted by geoschmo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by tbontob:

Quote:

I expect this game to be quick and bloody...any comments?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hope so. That's what I was going for when I set it up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

With 35+ players, 20+ rounds, if each game isn't quick and bloody we are going to be very old before the tournament is over.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And, if the attack fails, a situation is created where there are two potential "victims" as both will (in all likelihood) have been weakened in the battle. The attackee, however strong he/she may have been in the beginning may end up losing the game.

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now you are getting it. See why I like this format so much? Truely anything can happen. And over the course of the tournament alomost anything will at one time or another. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

IT's all about the game within the game....

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now you are getting it. See why I like this format so much? Truely anything can happen. And over the course of the tournament alomost anything will at one time or another. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I always "had" it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Just commenting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif And I still stand by my opinions about alliances. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Nothing has really changed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: The tournament and a question of ethics - newbie question
 

Regardless of the size of the alliance, as Geo mentioned:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">