Defeating the Talisman
 

In our current game we just saw the unthinkable, one race had 80 dreadnaughts (all phased V) and 4 fully loaded carriers of fighters against 32 dreadnaughts (all phased V) with talisman and the talisman race won and still had 21 ships left.

This caused the non-religious player to quit in a huff by surrendering to the race that was winning (not the race that kicked his butt) and exclaim, "It's impossible to beat the talisman! It's completely overpowered!"

So, I ask you minions of SE, how do you beat the Religious players and the dreaded Talisman? Prove our player wrong and that it can be done!

- Takr

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

I smashed two homeworlds of a Talisman equiped player recently. One was guarded by a single DN and attacked by around 8 Meson V BattleCruisers, the other was guarded by three DNs and assulted by a 37-ship fleet of BCs, two carriers, and assorted missile-carrying LCs. The Talisman DNs were armed with APB X to XII, defended with decent ECM, armor III, stealth armor, scattering armor.

I lost a total of three ships to that fighting. Key advantages here: he was using armor, I had shields. *Phased* shields, so even if he had PPBs I would have been ahead. I had good sensors, so I hit him enough.

It can be done; but going up against a Talisman equipped fleet WITHOUT good sensors and good fleet experience is going to be ridicilously painful; you need to be able to hit him reliably. Nothing else matters. Skip the ECM, leave the scattering and stealth and home. If all else fails and you can't seem to hit enough, build ramming ships and missile ships. They never miss, and can withstand enough damage on the way in to give the missile ships a break. Stay out of his range, and remember that if you can get through the PDC fire, seekers won't miss.

If you need a direct-fire weapon, consider the Wave Motion Gun. +30% to hit.

You also have 1500 racial points, and 40kt over him. *Use it*.

Phoenix-D

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Here's another thread on this subject.
The unbeatable combination

I haven't had my morning coffee yet, so I will grumpily point out that your friend won't learn one damn thing more from that game now that he's withdrawn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Well said Grandpa Kim, well said.

Undertakr, tell your friend that numerical advantage is no guarantee of sucess in SEIV. I have been in this community a long time and have played a lot of games. I have seen lopsided battle results such as you describe and worse where neither player had the Tailsman.

To beat the player using the Tailsman, you find his weakness and exploit it. Every player has a weakness. And if he doesn't have a weakness he would beat you anyway without the tailsman.

Tailsman has been very in vouge lately in PBW games. Partly becasue there has been all this talk about it being unbeatable. As more people use it, more people will learn ways to deal with it, and there are ways to deal with it. And as players using Tailsman start getting ganged up on and knocked out of games early and often, they will stop using the Tailsman.

The Deeply Relgious advanced Racial trait will soon become a great big target hanging around the neck of any player who chooses to use it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Although I've never had a big battle against the talisman 80 vs 32 and losing sounds like something else may have contributed too. Like maybe the level of armour, shields, sensors etc. Could 32 talisman DN's beat 80 idendtical non talisman DN's with the highest possible combat sensors?

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Possibly David G, I'd have to run some tests, if the non-trailsman player was using optimal range or something like that for a strategy. One of the biggest keys to beating a tailsman player in a battle is to change your ships strategy to point blank. This helps overcome the advantage of the Tailsman never missing because your ships will almost never miss at point blank assumning they have decent Combat sensors and or experience. This will allow roughly equal weapons tech and greater numbers to overcome the Tailsman equiped race. But you are going to take a beating. You have be prepared for that going in.

Geoschmo

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Rats! Geo beat me to it!

I will add, with optimum strategies (ie lots at point blank) and max fleet and ship training, the Talisman equipped fleet is dead. IF the Talisman fleet has max fleet and ship training too, you could lose. The big fleet will be missing a lot of shots against the additional 40% defense modifier. As well, with 80 ships you run into traffic problems-- not all those ships will be able to get in close, at least not right away.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Basically the key to fleet warfare is hitting the other guy more than he hits you. The Tailsman is admitadly the ultimate SEIV tool to that effect. However, that does not mean the player using it is unbeatable, because there are other ways to beat someone in SEIV than to simply line up fleet to fleet and pound away at each other.

Beating the tailsman player takes unconventional warfare. It takes diplomacy, intelligence, research, production. It takes creativity, and ruthlessness. It may take pulling every trick out of your bag, and it may take coming up with a few new ones you've never heard of.

But as Grandpa Kim put it so well, one sure way to guarantee you won't beat the tailsman is by quitting.

Some of my favorite games have been after I reached the point of having no possibility of victory. Becasue that's when I am free to experiment and improvise. When the cause is loast anyway is a perfect time to take bold risks and wild plans. If they fail it makes no diffeerence. If they succeed, even in a small measure, you have learned something that can be used in a future game.

Heh, sorry to get preachy, maybe this post should go in the philosophy thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

With 80 DN, avoid most traffic issues by making half of them into missile ships. 40 DN can throw a ton of missiles. PDC will not be able to stop fire concentrated on 8 ships at one edge of his group. Use the other 40 as beam ships, focusing on closer ranged weapons. He must close to beam range of your missile ships or he will die. Your beam ships are there to get in his way. Shield regen comp. and rotating your front line of beam ships will keep him from sitting out of range of your ships and picking them off. Not to mention your missile ships will be steadily killing him off.

Beam ships: try PPB (even though he has phased, they still deal better damage with slightly less range). Ripper beam is good in close. Yeah, its only range 3, but you can make him get that close. On top of that, using shield depleters can help if he is too strongly shielded. Say one per ship. Also, consider Ionic disperser to kill engines. Keep your fleet moving and as you kill engines off. Leave those crippled ships to be picked off with missile fire later, possibly even in a different battle (not like they're going anywhere in the system with no engines).

If you have to fight in strategic mode, it gets more annoying. But it is certainly doable.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

While people may say that in the end game the missile ship is dead i totally disagree, a mix organic/standard missile baseship can be produced in 3 turns, as opposed to 1 year or more for a conventional baseship. each can throw about 20 missiles every other turn and another 8 every three turns. if you line up 10 or 15 of these no PDC will stop you, and if someone does build enough PDC to stop that you should just switch back to other designs.

Don't bother with fighters when fighting the Talisman, they will die fast as any ECM/to hit modifiers are wasted.

Drones in gold may be a useful strategy. When playing a talisman you can't out mass 2 or 3:1 with raw KT and firepower then try to pick your battles and draw him out, (then lay mines behind him while you head straight for his home worlds). Try fitting destroyers with plauge bombs and a little armor then sending one at EACH of his planets (lvl 5 will kill ppl real fast). how about luring him into a system of yours and then blow the star? also, get allies against him! BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, AND I HOPE Undertakr tells his friend this, DONT'T QUIT, that is weak and you don't learn anything (i know its been said before but im get so pissed at ppl like that, it ruins the game to a degree as well)

---
keep fighting and if all else fails take religious too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

In the hands of an expert the talisman can be devestating. But there are many tactics and ship designs that can overcome the Talisman. Build Fighter escorts for the missiles. Classic Guerillia warfare Strike where the enemy is weak retreat where the enemy is strong. And most of all if the Talisman Empire is trying to fight 2-4 other empires all at once I seriously doubt the Talisman can save him.
A well prepared warp defense point can also take the stuffing out of a Talisman fleet. Since both fleets start at point blank range. And I must point out that Combined arms( I have yet to try it) would probably win the day Missile Boats, Fighters, Drones, Beam Barges, And good ole dreadnoughts can probably go head to head with a Talisman fleet. At least that is what my Navel stratgist tell me.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, on your honor.... NOBODY tell Askan about the talisman! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

I once was in a game against a Talisman player and found a pretty good way of dealing with him. As Geo said, I was able to take some extra risks because our first few battles were decicive in his favor so I wasn't risking much. More like a fighting retreat...

The key in my experiance was that he was using Null Space, Mesons, and some Plasma Torps. I used APB 12's. I designed my ships to maximize their chances to hit and gave them the Max Range/Don't Get Hurt stratagy. I then made some LC and BC's that were just Engine Killers, heavily shielded and as fast as possible. I gave them Point Blank/Don't Get Hurt stratagey. They would fly in, knock out enough engines before either getting turned to scrap or getting away. Then my BB's and DN's would sit out of range of all but his missles and pound on them. I included 2 PDC on each of my bigger ships which were enough at range to eliminate nearly all the missles. And those that did get through didn't penetrate my shields.

Worked great but only because he relied on shorter ranged weapons. BTW, if my engine killers didn't do their job, or weren't present, I either got a beating or we statemated.

So not the best tactic but it kept me from lossing too fast http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Just remember the talismon means he is putting beam weapons on his ship, and typically a fair number of them. Any fleet with a single method of attack is vulnerable to an enemy specifically defending against it.

Think to yourself: How do I kill a ship that is exactly the same speed as me, has a range of only eight, and will kick my butt if I get into that range.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, dunno. Might as well quit.

Rollo

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Close to point blank and kick his butt too</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Avoid his ships and hit his planets instead</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Get a possy and string him up

Basically everything we've been saying in this thread.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

You all been to http://home.earthlink.net/~petemmer/ ? its pretty good but needs some updating, im just wondering if they guy who started it is still around cause this should be in a new spot called "countering the racials." also what about not gettting any racial and goign like +30 or more in offense and defense and normal bonus' like that? just a thought.

O and as to combined arms: <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think unless you had tactical on you wouldn't get nearly as nice results with a few ships, once you start dealing with 20+ ship fleets then you would get pretty nice results IIRC. hummm im just rambling

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Missle ships are pretty worthless against the talisman, once I see that's how you're going I just make extra PDC's and the talisman hits your missles 100% of the time (and missles usually do weak damage and have delays of more than 2 turns.)

If you go with beam weapons, you have to get close enough to me to where I hit you 100% of the time every single turn (Phased) and even if you have phased shields, I will get through them or I'll use Null Space and definately get through them.

Fighters are the same as missles, you better have a boat load (few hundred) to do any good against a talismaned fleet of dreads. I've had my fleet of 20 talisman dreads take out 60 fighters without blinking. I've taken our 40 dreads and lost 2 ships with my fleet of 23. Talisman thumps and thumps hard.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Why not stick a Worm Hole Beam on every ship? Spread those Talisman ships all over the battle field, and take them out one by one.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Undertakr, the Talisman is effective but it isn't everything. Particularlly since you are giving your opponent 110kt over you, if he's smart. 50kt Talisman + 30 Stealth + 30 Scattering + 10 ECM -10 sensors.

See, he can't dodge you anyway.. so he doesn't NEED those extra things. Just sensors. You on the other hand do need them, to dodge his shots.

PDCs are hyper-accurate even without the talisman. so that part is irrelevent..

Or your opponent can just take a page from military history and hit you when HE is ready, not when you are. It's an advantage, not a holy grail (pun not intended)

Phoenix-D

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Problem is, in a game with 12 players, someone can't remove all their stuff from their ships to just take on a Talismaned fleet. They have to have all the extras to go fight the other races as well. (Or do some retrofitting I suppose.)

Bottom line is, if you don't get your fleet to 20% experience, you don't hit enough to worry a Talismaned fleet at all. 2 of us with Religion have destroyed 9 of the people in our game with a total of 4 fleets. About 90 ships. We have destroyed well over 300 ships and lost about 30 of our own, so the Talisman is quite effective, at least it was in the game we're about to finish up.

The only thing that did quite a bit of damage is the Tacyon Cannon for the Temporals, that hurt me pretty well and the Time Distortion Bursts rocked me too.

- takr

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

So Undertakr, what exactly is the point of all this? You have pointed out nothing new to anyone. The tailsman is tough, but it's not unbeatable. It's only as good as the player using it. A skilled player will do well using just about any combination, and an unskilled player is going to lose even if they use the Tailsman.

It is impossible for anyone to come up with one strategy that will beat the tailsman player under every circumstances. But the same could be said about any other possible empire setup. I could come out here and say, "Organic race is the ultimate racial trait" and give my resaons why. You and everyone else could give me suggestions for beating someone using organic race, and I could then give you my plans for dealing with your stragegies. All of it is purely theoretical and doesn't prove anything. Any more than the fact that you and your fellow religious player were able to beat 9 other players.

I had a PBW game a while back where I was non-racial tech player. I had just various characteristic bonuses. I allied with another player that was organic I think and we cleared the game of everyone else, including religious players. What does that prove? Just that we did a better job in that particular game. Nothing more, nothing less.

Geoschmo

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Well I think that it will be a more interesting game trying to beat the talisman than playing with one every game...

And in one game I am getting hammered...... by a nasty combo of talisman and propulsion expert...

That is a nasty combo... Ships are too quick... and the player is a good player... But I am learning and a lesson out of a beating is far better to experience than walking away.

Right Geo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep yep! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We may not get trhough this one for sure, btu I have defintly learned a lot about how to deal with them in the future. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure they can -- they just have to convince "everyone else" to play along, while the Talisman-wielders get smished. Sort of a "kill you Last" agreement.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Depends. A few lucky whacks with ship capture ... and you're in trouble, 'cause some of HIS ships are talisman ships now ...

Also sucks to run into a Religious/Psychic combination; if they can get going ... YOUR shipbuilding efforts merely build HIS fleet. Heh.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Well this is very disappointing. Can't you stop learning your lessons, and just carry on doing the things you were doing before? It'd be much easier for me.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

I am sure it was. But I am through learning leassons and am in the mood to teach a few now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Too funny...

In other games that I have joined which are full tech... I have designed a race I think that will hurt the Religious player... Now to test it out.

Mark I did not know you were a member here. Good to see you. Sorry about the insult of you being a good player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But hey you are beating Andres, Geo and myself very easy.....

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

That's cause you guys suck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif j/k

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That 110Kt difference is true for ships. But... Have you looked at what the Talisman can do for a stack of units?

100 SATS in a stack is a lot of Kt, for Large SATS thats 12,000 Kt of space, for Medium SATS thats 10,000 Kt of space, and I'll ignore the Small SATS as they can't use the large weapon mount.

With 12,000 Kt of space I can easily add a 50Kt Tailisman and bonus the whole stack. I can even add few more for backup. I have more than enough room for ECM and ECM armor. In fact the toughest SATS should be destroyed Last, so my Talisman SAT could have best shields and armor points.

Oh yea, that large SAT mount adds x4 range and x2 power. That extra range is cool for using cheap ripper beams, only X weapons, and the pyshic subVersion weapon.

BUT THATS NOT ALL!!!
Don't you hate missing with the Weapon Platform large mounts. These mounts have incredible range and can deal some real pain. Just one Talisman can help a whole stack of platforms. You can put it in a small platform and save the space on the big ones for big guns.

The funny numbers...
The best combat sensor can add only +60 to hit and there is no training or racial bonus effect on units. The larger weapon platform mounts do get a bonus to Hit, but not enough.
The ship the unit is targeting may have +130 ECM (+60 ECM, +30 ECM armor, +20 ship training, +20 fleet training)and +30 racial defense (+10 bezerker, +20 attack) + DISTANCE Modifier. A mid game ships total ECM + Distance could easily be figured at +90 to +200.
Since units are generally more fragile than ships the results are damning. The ships can also have +130 to hit bonuses, (+60 combat sensor, +40 training, and +30 racial)which is better than any units ECM.
A SAT unit stack can have +90 ECM. ECM is generally wasted on weapon platforms because of a planets high hit-me bonus. I don't remember exactly what the best fighter ECM + Size Bonus is, but it is not enough.

With a Talisman in the SAT or Weapon platform a ships ECM and distance is meaningless. These units can still be usefull in the later game.

[ September 05, 2002, 00:16: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

I think we just have to go into those caves and get them out, although I did see a news special about how they were going to use soundwaves to make them surrender...oh, you said TALISMAN! Sorry!

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Not to belabor the point but I now know someone that has made the comment that as an Economic Powerhouse combined with the talisman he would be undefeatable in any game where he is allowed to get to Economic Powerhouse stage(about a million metals coming in per turn). It appears that the only defense against a Talisman player is to kill him early in the game. The talisman is way too strong. It need to be modified to miss about 10-20% of the time. Or be made very expensive to build/maintain.
Gozra

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

Sure, we can beat those Taliban....

http://www.gotlaughs.com/funpages/bin2.swf

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

This was a very interesting thread!

Wardad, I particularly enjoyed your number-crunching analysis. Very enlightening, indeed!

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

I'm just about wrapping up my first victory with my partner in a team game on PBW after a long and challenging 9 months.

I won't go into detail on what specific factors were involved, because really, winning encompasses much more than fleets and battle strategies. See the "When to Attack" thread...

The biggest and baddest player for most of the game was a very good Talisman player. His empire was getting huge. The honest key to victory was planning and pulling off a coordinated surprise attack just before he was in position to do it to me.

I attacked his economic base and raided his planets, bypassing his defensive fleets. He opened warp points on my front lines, which I used against him to launch deep (expendable)strikes behind his lines. While he reacted with damage control, I consolidated my fleets at the front to the best of my ability, even though my ships were far inferior.

I played an Organic race, and pumped out as many Base ships packed with Organic armor (and just a few weapons) as possible. I set their strategies to short/point blank. They acted as fodder. I also configured a few strats to allow some Organic ships to "dance" in and out of combat, taking advantage of the armor buildup each round. But what I lacked was a punch. I got it by building long range strike ships; and my partner helped me out with some of his ships, which were better on the attack.

Best of all, I attacked him with his own ships by insurrecting them slowly and surely... and adding them to my defensive fleets.

Intel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Gotta love it. I don't believe anyone mentioned it, but massive Intel superiority is devastating. Truly a key. Broke all his treaties, stole his ships, and robbed resources.

After consistant pressure for many turns, his economy was in shambles and his planets were rioting, halting production. To win, you must be ruthless and relentless, pressing the advantage, and never letting up. It was all down hill from there.

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

I believe Stone Mill just showed us very convincingly that there is nothing "unbeatable" in SE IV.
I hate to say it again, but for those who complain that the religious talisman is too powerful: you can mod that yourself!! Increase the size (and may be the cost) to any level you feel appropriate. If the religious talisman takes up 500kT of space, just to give an extreme example, it won't be too powerful anymore.

[ October 26, 2002, 08:13: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: Defeating the Talisman
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Q,

your point is only valid if people want to play against the computer. If I believe the Talisman is massively overpowered (which I'm not sure I do...), it's no good me creating my "Talisman costs three times as much" mod if nobody else agrees with me about both problem and solution. Game-balance fixes are really going to have to be implemented by Malfador. Mods created for game balance are just not going to attract players.

Mark