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PBW Needs you!
So you like Play By Web do you? You want to keep it running? Well, we would too, but we need your help.
Here are some numbers. The internet connection needed to keep the server running costs 90 bucks a month, every month. I haven't tried to figure out what it costs in power usage, that's probably insignificant, and I don't mind paying that myself. And there are hardware costs. The hardware we have now was donated by the Admiral, and and partly paid for by all of you when the server crashed Last time. But we have no emergency fund. If we were to have another hardware failure at this point we'd be down for a few weeks or whatever while we raised enough money to get it fixed. Let's talk about what we can't do. We can't charge subscription fees. First of all, we don't want to. But even if we did want to it wouldn't work. A few of you would quite happily pay a monthly fee to play. But more of you could not, or would not. And that would greatly reduce the number of players avaialble for games. This would penalize those paying to play as much as those not paying and would kill PBW. We can do ads. And we might in the near future. But the fact is the internet advertising market has all but dried up in the Last couple years. You might start seeing some banner ads, but you won't see popups, I can promise you that. And whatever we do, it won't pay all the bills of PBW. We can add some "premium" features to PBW that will be on a pay for system. But we haven't quite figured out what those would be yet. If you have any ideas on extras you would pay for, we'd be happy to hear them. For several months now we've given you the ability to donate to PBW Online via Paypal. A lot of people have done so very generously. Several people have donated more than once. Lot's of people have given 10 or 20 dollars or more. A couple people even donated 100 dollars! This is great, and a big help. But a few people making big donations isn't really fair, and it doesn't cover the expenses of a service like PBW. Many of you have expressed concerns or an inability to use the Paypal system to donate, so we've decided to give you another way to help. We now have an address that you can use to send donations to by mail. PBW P.O. Box 31549 Dayton OH, 45437-1549 How much should you send? Any amount you want and think is fair for the use of the PBW service is allright with us. Currently we have about 300 people that log onto the server everyday, and about 500 that check it every week. Some of you aren't counted in that because you take advantage of the email features and only occasionally visit the site. If 300 people would stick a quarter in an envelope and drop it in the mail every month it would almost completely cover the monthly cost of running the server. So for the cost of a quarter and a 37 cent stamp, 62 cents a month, you'd be doing your share to support PBW. That's less that Sally Struthers asks for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If 300 people would send a dollar a month we could cover the costs of the server and we'd have big chunk leftover to do upgrades and repairs when needed. If 300 people a month would send twenty dollars a month I could quit my job and take care of the PBW server full time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Heh, but seriously. If you want to mail a donation larger than 5 dollars, I'd feel better about it if you sent a check or a money order. Large bills in the mail have a tendancy to disappear. No offense to any of you fine postal employees out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Also, if you want to make a donation via mail and have it qualify for the contest we are running right now, it has to be to me by the deadline at the end of the month And please put a note in there with the donation with your name and email address so I can contact you. So there you have it. You no longer have any excuse not to do your part to help keep PBW running. So, have you sent your quarter in yet? PBW Admin Team http://seiv.pbw.cc |
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Kewl, fair enuf. Paypal and I do NOT get along but a check to that address will be just fine for me. BTW who would I make the check out to? Me no send cash via mail...
[ September 07, 2002, 16:54: Message edited by: pathfinder ] |
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are you talking about an american quarter?
if so, you can count me out. Nobody up here has that kind of fortune http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Frankly, I think that Shrapnel should pitch in $90.00 a month to support the PBW site. It does more for their game than anything else.
However, I have supported PBW in the past and I will probably do so again. |
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How does that deals with donation from europe ?
Most of the time these system ask for horrendous fees to converse euros to dollars. I know for sure that a check is out of question. It would mean a fee of around 20$ to convert it from euros to dollars. |
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Shrapnel is supporting PBW by supplying the prizes for the "Win Free Stuff" contest.
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If you need to write a check, you can make it out to George Perley.
My bank has told me they would let me deposit bank checks from overseas banks at the going currency exchange rate, no fee. They just sit on the money for a couple weeks while they wait for it to clear is all. But that's no problem. Geoschmo |
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ok, I'll try a check.
Keep us (poor backward) europeans updated if an "unusual" banking fee appears.... |
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Mark |
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I'd be interested to know just how many quarters you recieve now, Geo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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I'm not a capitalist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif but why not a pricing system? I think you may charge a MINIMUM price for game to hold the whole thing. I repeat, MINIMUM. The question is hold on with PBW and NOT to enrich geoschmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .
Are you sure PBW would sink if a payment system is used? I think it's more a question what would that money be for. Just a capitalist opinion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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When I tried to propose the idea of selling the UM2, people were dead set against me and condemned me and more.
Despite the fact the cash would go to fund SE.org's expansion and development and keep it running. |
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Hadrian, this is different; not only are they *not* requiring payment, not only are they defering contiuing operating costs instead of payment for work invested, UM2 is a *mod*, and PBW isn't. PBW doesn't have the specter of taking advantage of someone else's work that *any* mod sold will have.
Phoenix-D |
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And it's a rock solid guarantee that payment system would not work. The fact is SEIV is a niche game. It's easy to forget sometimes because it is so addicting to those of us that play it that we can't imagine why anyone would want to play anything else. And the group of people that play Online against other humans is an even smaller sub niche of that. If we were to take the number of regular Users and divide that by the cost to run it and start charging that amount a month as a subscription fee, yes many people would pay. But "many" is not enough. We'd have to have 100% participation. Anything less than 100% and we wouldn't make budget. And the next months costs would be the same, but the user base would be smaller, so we'd have to charge everybody more, and they would get less for it because of fewer people to play against. So naturally more people would drop out the next month, and the cycle would spiral down. In a very few months we would be gone. Pay for play is simply not a realistic business model for a game with a user base this small. Geoschmo |
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Stats show that in the Last month there were 481 Users on PBW. Multiply that times 12 months and you get 5,772 Users per year. If each of those Users paid a fee of $5.00 per year (an extremely small amount), then PBW would have an annual budget of $28,860 per year. As an IT pro (Network Admin), I can tell you that this should be a sufficient dollar figure to support this system. Obviously, the problem is that you don't see this scale of contribution. I say THAT is the sad thing. I have before, and will again, send money to PBW because it is THE WAY TO PLAY. If everyone else who played on PBW felt the same as me, this thread, and this conversation, would not be occuring.
[ September 09, 2002, 03:40: Message edited by: Gandalph ] |
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28K would cover it and then some. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
However, your numbers there aren't quite right. 481 Users Last onth doesn't translate into 5000 Users a year, because those 481 Users will still be here next month. We have been pretty steady at about 300 Users daily and 500 Users weekly for almost a year now. Geoschmo |
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The point is still the same, if all Users contibuted a small amount, PBW would be covered.
[ September 09, 2002, 04:27: Message edited by: Gandalph ] |
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The idea of micropayments comes to mind. I use an Online service (www.istockphoto.com) to get free-use images for my marketing/graphic projects. I basically pay them an upfront amount (say $10 U.S.) which is then applied to my account. Whenever I download a picture, $.25 U.S. is deducted from my account.
This works nicely, it is not painful, and I believe that the money is put to good use in supporting the service and creators of the images. To brainstorm for just a moment before I go back to working -- If Joe Gameplayer establishes an account at PBW, and knows that to play one game will cost him say ten cents per turn for his first game and say 2.5 cents per turn for every game after the first, it would be a low-pain way to bring in a revenue stream. Now...would that stream be enough? I do not know. But it may help. This model is based not on the number of players, but on the number of turns played. If the cost structure where a graduated system where the more you play the less it costs per turn, then there is an incentive to play more. I am just thinking out loud, while I add some cash to my paypal account and see about getting it over to PBW. Just a thought. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Cheers! Trajan |
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Run a poll, and see how many people would actually refuse to pay. There would be some ppl who say "no I wouldn't pay" hoping to discourage you from introducing fees, and there would equally be some who would say "yes I'd pay" and then not bother to sign up. These would probably balance each other out, but even if you lost 25% of your players then you'd still have 300 odd Subscribers. Call it 300.
300 Users x $5 per year subscription = $1500 dollars. That wouldn't be too bad would it? And that's assuming that loads of players refuse to cough up. To be honest I can't imagine any existing PBW player begrudging you $5 per YEAR. I know some of us are better off than others, but if you can afford to buy the game in the first place you can afford 40cents per month. $5 per year. Per YEAR. I mean come on... I don't know about prices anywhere else but round here I could go down the pub and spend US$5 on one drink and not think about it too much. I mean if you met Geo in a pub wouldn't you buy him a pint? I would. Besides, existing players are too far hooked to give up now. Recruiting new players might be harder, but they could be given 6 months' free play time to get them addicted. Sure, they could just sign on again with a different username, but then they'd lose all the reputation they had built up under their first name - especially if a ranking system was introduced. Anyway, I'm in favour of annual fees. In the meantime, I'm going to get a donation together... |
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Another idea: Get Shrapnel to add a few dollars to the price of the game and pass the extra cash straight onto PBW. Ppl buying the game would be subsidising the pirates but hell, that happens anyway.
Perhaps for SEV this could be integrated into the overall game marketting strategy: -Sell the SEV CDs and manuals at cost+shipping, and have the game as a free download. Encourage ppl to distribute the copy the game for their friends. Maybe restrict the number of AI players possible in a game whilst allowing loads and loads of humans, but otherwise have the freely distributable Version fully functional. -Now hard-code the game so that the only way to play Online multiplayer is via a specific PBW server. Maybe take hotseat out, but I'd say leave it in. -Then you simply charge for each PBW login & password, either a one-off payment or a recurring fee. Obviously for this to work Shrapnel and PBW would have to be somehow integrated into one-another, business wise. In other words, the one-player game would become effectively freeware with the money coming from access to the multiplayer functions. Maybe some hacker could get in and alter the game to allow multiplayer without the PBW servers or somehow fool the game into connecting to an illegitimate server, but it sure wouldn't be easy. Piracy would therefore be redundant, since you want everyone to have a copy of the software, and all you'd have to police would be access to the game servers. Just an idea. Two, actually. [ September 09, 2002, 16:33: Message edited by: dogscoff ] |
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I am scrambling to put together another donation for PBW (and I am not even using the service!!) and hoping Geo doesn't embezzle this one |
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< rant > It never ceases to amaze me how readily people suggest how other people should spend their money.
The total PBW user base is only a fraction of Shrapnel's sales of SE IV. Shrapnel has NO OBLIGATION to support PBW. It's nice that they do, but there's no reason that they HAVE to. < /rant > [ September 09, 2002, 19:47: Message edited by: capnq ] |
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We actually considered integrating some of PBW into SE:IV Gold, but at the time we did not have the cash to support an extra server like this.
I think keeping PBW independent is a great thing and adds to the strength of the community. I know all of you have have played on the service have enjoyed many hours of fun, and to me that warrants supporting the server cost. In fact I contributed awhile back myself. |
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I think the best plan yet is the small dollar ammount per year. perhaps premium service would be restricted to paying Users. for instance, you can play the stock game for free, but you have to pay to play with mods. or you have to pay to play with GOLD, or with patches http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif or you have to pay to play on the ladder, or in sponsored tourneys. PBW could host events, that are pay events. make some tourney games, with turn limits so they will end within 2 or 3 months, charge a buck a seat, kick 50% back to the winner. have a higher stakes game at $5 a seat. combine this with the existing donation method, so that the people who want to give more than $5 a year for premium service and mods, still can. when i measure the ammount of time i have been entertained by this game, and by the community, and the PBW service, and the quality of that entertainment compared to other games or other forms of amusement that i have paid for, and then compare the costs. even considering the copies of the game that i have bought for myself, and the copies that i have bought for others, and what i have given to PBW, im still coming out on top. hell, having played this game for about 3 years now, im practically STEALING all the entertainment its given me. |
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I am not terribly keen on the idea of charging extra to use mods. It's hard enough as it is to get people to sign up for mod games.
What we are considering as a long term solution is to charge a yearly fee, along the lines of the 5 dollars you and others have suggested. The fee would not be mandatory to play however. We would start selling a limited amount of ad space on the website (Not popups. Yeech!) and by paying the 5 dollar yearly fee you would not have to see the ads. Of course this would be "grandfathered" so that anybody that has already made a donation would be paid up already. For those of you that made large donations you would be paid up for several years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif What do you all think about this? Geoschmo |
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Also, the "profit" could be used to hold more contests http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , improve the server (lesser downs), but more money in the emergency coffers, improve the site, send some cheese or fruit baskets for those who contribute more than 50 dollars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif and other expenditures. Monthly fees would generate too much revenue, and most of it will go to geo's grubby hands http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , and a yearly fee would generate not much to do this, although it would barely keep PBW alive, IMHO, and leave coffers bare in dire times. So what I propose is bi-annualy, or quarter-annually (forget the Proper words for both) fees of about 3-5 American dollars, which should generate enough to not just keep it flying, but rather to keep it flying and attach another couple of rolls royce engines on it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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If 300 people paid the 5 dollars a year that would totally cover the expenses plus leave enough to replace the motherboard or another critical part in the event of a failure.
If we go with the ads as well that will make up for anyone that doesn't contribute their five bucks. And they w1oiuld not be seen by those that do. We of course would still accept larger donations if anyone feels so motivated, and those can be used for upgrades or additional sevices that seem like they might be a good idea. Geoschmo |
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i like geo's plan. pay to be ad free. i still think you should run pay for play tourneys, in the theme of "charity balls"
the only mod game i have had trouble getting people to show for, was my devnull game (which unfortuneatly underwent massive problems with turns not running properly, and me dropping the ball, and the game getting scrubbed) which was my only non-themed game since the PBW Beta test. i always figured it was hard recruiting because i didnt bother to think up a theme or plot for it. I thought the P&N games were popular, people always show up in spades for Junkyard Wars, and I saw a handfull of new Devnull games running, the Last time i looked. are people really having a hard time getting Subscribers for Mod games? |
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There were a few Puke. I think you have such a good reputation for running good games that you haven't seen the problem though.
Pay tournaments with cash prizes would be something I would be interested in. But I would be worried that we might be opening ourselves up for legal issues with something like that. I'll try to find out some more info about that. As far as the PBW admins making any moey off the site. I don't think any of us would complain if the thing actually made some cash. Everyone who has ever made a website has dreamed of someday getting enough traffic to be able to put a little jack back in their pockets from it. I don't talk about it much because frankly it's never looked like it was feasible with PBW. It's always been a labor intensive thing. We all spend a lot of time administering it. But we do it for the love of the game. The donations have always pretty much covered the expenses, and not much else more. And that is fine if that's all it ever does. If the combination of 5 dollar yearly fees and advertising brings in enough that we can say it turned a profit, fine. But it'll only really be a profit in name. It's not going to by a new Miata or anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But what would make me feel kind of wierd is if we turned a profit because a handful of very loyal (and addicted) players sent us large amounts of money. I think it's better if everybody pay a little bit. Geoschmo |
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You should probably go with the ads anyway, whether people pay or not. Regular banner ads (as long as they're silent, unlike some I've seen!) don't bother me in the least, and if you get a little extra money on a per impression basis, then why not? At the very least, it might act like another $5 per year donor.
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if you set up PBW as a non-profit entity, you can start writing off your expenses and getting a tax break. also, you could look at the tourneys as a fund-rasing "raffle" where people chip in, and have a chance at a prize. heck, if you set up as a non-profit, not only can the PBW crew write off all their technology-related expenses, but donors can write off any money they send you. Tax deductable video games, baby, oh yea. |
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i also think someone should create an "official PBW shipset" for Geo and the Admiral (whatever happened to the Admiral?) and LL and crew. then you could put a little ship icon of the appropriate size, next to each persons name when they are listed on a game, or when they appear on the PBW forum. the ship type would show what level of donor they were, and oneupmanship would ensue.
or you could just use a stock shipset. |
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My 2 cents:
1) I am going to use my wife's Paypal account to donate to PBW. I should be ashamed of myself, but she makes so much on E-bay selling excess junk that a little of that money ought to go to support my internet sites. 2) We are at the mercy of Geoschmo and the PBW admins. I appreciate them eliciting our opinions, but the real future for the PBW site is up to them. I don't even have a problem with them getting filthy rich off me for 2 reasons: this is America, and it just ain't gonna happen, the playership is so small. 3) Feeding PBW off of contributions is simple and probably sufficient if they are happy as starving artists. The boys do a good job and I respect them for adding to a great game. But for the 800 or so Users, where will we be when Geoschmo gets tired of carrying the responsibility and costs of running the server? Back to solo games against a decidely less than optimal AI? PBEM also sucks in comparison to the automated PBW service. 4) If PBW administrators want to be paid for their work (not unreasonable) and the Users want a reliable PBW service, Users should be expected to pay a fee. It's up to the PBW admin's to determine what the market will bear. 5) I would encourage PBW administrators to approach MM about supporting the PBW site even further. SEIV is MM's most successful game. But why is PBW participation so low? The PBW system is so easy to use and if there are thousands of SEIV owners out there, there should be thousands of PBW Users. I suspect this is a marketing issue. Properly marketed, PBW and MM should both be able to fuel further sales for each other's services. For example, I was introduced to this Intel Forum by the PBW site. This has raised my awareness of other game titles. I just might purchase Space Horse to play with my 12 year old. I don't propose MM fully funding PBW, just enhancing the relationship. This does not always mean cash, but cash is helpful. Both parties stand to benefit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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I donated my pizza and beer money. If they want to have a small party with it, thats cool with me.
If enough people give they could have a really good party. Just a little payment in kind for the hours they put in making our lives a little better. |
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In order to improve our organizational effectiveness and accelerate new games to market, it is crucial that we leverage our global web resources to enable better marketing methodologies, maximize reuse, optimize resource utilization and customer leads, strengthen our centers of excellence and optimize intellectual property (IP) creation. The alignment of the regional PBW resources under the regional general management team will ensure consistent career enrichment within the regions.
I am pleased to announce the addition of Scott Adams to the PBW management team. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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im wearing steel toed boots with your name on them, if i find out who you are.
(edit: rudness removed) this community exists in a microchosim. the rest of the internet is made up with muther-sporkers like you. if people want the level of inteligence and maturity found within all the Users (except for me) on this forum, and if they want the level of gameplay found on PBW to continue, they will contribute. you mooching naysayers can kiss my fuzzy butt. no free lunch, beatnick. [ September 11, 2002, 00:35: Message edited by: Puke ] |
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PBW is one of the few sites that I actively send cash too. I will continue to do so for as long as I am able. Keep up the good work Guys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Hmm seems the gist of this thread has gone from 'payement will kill PBW' to 'let's put in a payment scheme'. So which is it? Hopefully PBW can survive on donations. If Geo could knock on every ones door and ask them for 5 bucks he'd probably get it. But asking them to type in a Visa number to a website or write a cheque some people will balk. Heck some players may not have Visa cards or a checking account. Now it there were some way to convince people to donate.....
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if people dont have a credit card or a checking acount, 1) they are living in some sort of whacked walden-pond-esque denial of the modern world, and 2) how are they connecting to the internet? whisteling into the phone? hell, you will have a serious project paying for a phone line, most places, without either a checkbook or pLastic.
i dont think that the gist of the thread has become pay for PBW. i think the general concensus is to go with the 'pay to not see ads on PBW' plan, and possibly run occasional fund-raisers. |
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It's fiscally unfeasible for us to accept check via web (EFTs) because of the high processing costs. HOWEVER: Paypal *does* accept EFTs, not just credit card payments. Problem solved. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Eric/LL |
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I'm fairly new to PBW gaming, however, since I've been playing I really enjoy it. Where else can you play against other human players other then in Hot Seat. PBW is worth whatever it takes to keep it up and running.
The question becomes do we (the members) want to keep it or take the chance of it going down the tubes because of funding. That I believe is the bottom line. Everything today cost something, someone has to pay the bills, PBW is gracious to let us play for free, however, it still costs money to run. Therefore, I'm not against paying for use, the problem is for those who really can't afford it,(yes there are some), so this needs to be taken into consideration as well. It wouldn't be fair to lose players because they couldn't afford a payment. In addition, as PBW grows, cost goes up to maintain. Just my 2 cents worth Mac |
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DavidG, Puke is right on with his Last post, I just want to reiterate that PBW will remain free to play. We may however go with some ads to generate a little extra revenue and take the load off those that can't donate. If you are one that hates seeing banner ads on webpages you visit however you will be given an option to turn them off for you by making a small donation, like 5 bucks a year. This way those that can and wish to donate can still do so, either by paypal or by check. And those that can't contribute directly can still help PBW raise money by looking at a few banners while you navigate the website. Actually you don't have to look at them, you can ignore them like you probably do banners on every other website. But by viewing the page the banner is on in a small way you will be doing your part to help PBW pay it's expenses. (I should really run of some kind of political office. I make banners sound like a good thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )
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...bump...
I think it needed it! [ September 23, 2002, 05:52: Message edited by: Gandalph ] |
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