Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Someone mentioned SE2 in the rebate thread, and that reminded me that the AI had some good tactics back then that seem to be missing now. Specifically, the AI used to defend warp points (the neutral AI's were especially good at this). I remember warping into a new system and finding dozens of dreadnoughts waiting to rip my little ships to shreds... whatever happened to that tactic? The AI almost never defends warppoints anymore, except occasionally with mines (and not always very many of those).

Or do the TDM races do a better job of this?

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

I've seen the AI use both mines and satellites on warp points, with some TDM races using close to 100 of each.

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

I too have seen TDM races really whop mines and sats on warp points, but what they dont do is station fleets over them or build bases on them like players do.

Is there anyway this could be changed?

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Yeah, I remember that too.

Mines are effective early game but just a nuisance later on. I'd really like to see the AI's do a better jobe of warphole defense as well.

Then again, the reason I play against humans so oftern is that really good AI's are hard to come by.

T-

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Mines can become effective again if you raise the numbers high enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(360 in my current games. 200 for satellites.)

(And AIs like the Pyrochettes do build up some very nasty minefields...)

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Ugh. Their annoying enough.

Good point though.

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Yeah, I wish the AI acted like it did in SE2. With the WP defense it had back then. Not only did they sit like ALOT of dreads on the WPs but they also built like ALOT more starbases. You would seriously have to have a fleet of 100 ships or more to punch your way through. And that figure is only if there were like 80 total ships on the WP. If they had 150 (I've seen it done) on the WP you'd have to have close to 200 ships be able to win. It was great, and it'd be awesome if someone could make it like that in SEIV.

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Unfortunately, in SE4 there is no way to teach the Ai to defend warp points with fleets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Yeah, not with modding. But Aaron could teach them. The AI is supposed to use some percentage of its fleets for defense. These fleets could guard warp points between 'secure' systems and contested systems or try to cut of enemy reinforcements to contested systems. This would be a step towards a better strategic behavoir of the AI.

Rollo

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Makes you wonder if Aaron specifically chose not to set the AI up to defend warp points in SE4. Maybe it was an issue of balancing planetary defense and warp point defense.

I'd also like to see the AI build bases in "uninhabited" systems, i.e. build bases in asteroid field systems, nebulas, etc. As long as it knew enough not to build in a black hole system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But the AI has never been good at that, not even in SE2 or SE3 (at least not that I recall).

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

Am I the only one that sees guarding warp points a little silly? I can understand in the early game, but what good is a fleet of 20 starbases sitting on a warp point when another one opens somewhere else? I'd much rather park those starbases over my planets. Sure, it's riskier because enough suicide ships can rush the planet and blow it up, but at least they help to some extent.

That, and the maintenance cost for starbases seems awfully high, even with the 50% reduction. Each battlestation practically requires a tiny planet just to provide the maintenance.

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did that once, traded with the neutrals so I could get it fast. It worked remarkably well. Half a dozen battlestations and starbases. Some fighter platforms, null space cannons, massive mount ripper beams. Really kept the Pyrochette at bay for a good long time. Built myself a nice little empire.

Nice, quiet, safe little womb -- rhymes with tomb. The Pyrochette lost fleet after fleet at my choke points -- while they sliced up the rest of the galaxy. They may have been the first TDM modpack race to use Stellar manipulation, cause there were NO PLANETS that weren't theirs -- just asteroids. When everyone else was dead, they broke my defences.

Coulda made that a shorter post -- walling yourself in is ultimately self defeating against the AI. And probably just plain dumb vs humans.

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

"Am I the only one that sees guarding warp points a little silly? I can understand in the early game, but what good is a fleet of 20 starbases sitting on a warp point when another one opens somewhere else? I'd much rather park those starbases over my planets."

System shield. Guarding WPs lets you concentrate your forces, where protecting each planet individually invites defeat in detail.

Phoenix-D

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

I think it depends on the situation. If you can heavily defend one critcal warp point that will effectively block access to several systems, then it is much more efficent obviously to defend the warp point.

On the other hand if you have a system with as many warp points as planets it makes more sense to defend the planets. Especially considering usually one of the planets is much more valuable than the others.

Regardless I think bases are generally a poor choice for warp point defense. It just takes too much micromanagment to get them there, and then they cannot be moved with the ebb and flow of your borders. Those 6 or 8 starbases are great, but when that system is four jumps away from the nearest contested system, they aren't much use. And they are too easily bypassed by stellar manipulation.

It's trite I know, but in the end, the best defense is always a good offense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

I actually sent an e-mail to Aaron about this, and here's his answer:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

I'd forgotten about the ability to just leave a sector immediately after a combat, if said combat was a draw. I think in SE2, if you lost the combat (or combat was a draw), you didn't finish warping into the system. Maybe if that feature was added back in, warp point defense would make more sense.

I'd also like to say that warp point defense shouldn't come at the expense of planetary defense; but without "defense in depth" an empire is pretty vulnerable. I generally use a fleet to defend warppoints between "my" territory and the enemy territory. I'll also put up minefields and/or satellite emplacements.

Of course, in single player games I also frequently get to a point where I don't want (or need) more systems, so I put serious defenses on the entry warppoints, make sure I have system shields everywhere possible (and defend warppoints at vulnerable locations, i.e., entries from nebula systems where I can't build a system shield), and then send out the attack fleets to cleanse the rest of the galaxy.

As for putting bases in uninhabited systems, I generally do that so I can see if someone's moving through; and, perhaps more importantly, to have a remote shipyard I can use to replenish defenses, perform retrofits, etc. They're also good as fighter or drone launching platforms.

And while the best defense is a good offense, that doesn't mean a good offense can completely replace your defense. How often do you see a hockey team leave their goal undefended? Sure, it happens occasionally, but it's a pretty big risk. I also remember from my days of playing soccer that using your defenders to play offense is a bad long-term strategy; because eventually the other team will get the ball, and you'll wish those defenders had stayed back where they could stop the blitz...

I'll leave discussions of the Maginot Line, invasions of Russia, and other World-War type topics to my European brethren...

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

"I'd forgotten about the ability to just leave a sector immediately after a combat, if said combat was a draw."

Warp point defenses in my experience tend to be short, bloody, and only end in a draw because one side has been bLasted to no weapons..

Phoenix-D

Re: Space Empires 2 and warp point defense
 

My favorite is luring an enemy into a WP he has been lead to believe is weakly defended but really has 2000 mines (that will catch anyone! off gaurd) a couple 100 sats and 20-30 WPD (warp point defense) class ships that are low movement and have lots of shields (few regens) and lots of weps that do high damage close up, computer killers and boarding parties can't hurt either, drone carriers and fighter are bomb too.

I really want drones with move to orders so i can really recreate teh WP assaults of "the shiva option" im gonna go cry now