Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

I've come to believe the PPB's are too powerful. I tend to look at weapons in terms of the damage per turn per KT of the component. PPB's are WAY ahead of the other weapons.

There is something to be said for one massive attack in one turn (ala massive Wave Motion Guns), but if your targets sheilds/armor can handle the damage it isn't a limiting factor.

I don't think PPB's should be removed by any means. But I think the premier weapon in the game should be more expensive to research.

Why not make PPB's available at Physics three and Cloaking devices at Physics two? That way you might actually get some use out of cloaking devices as well. Sensors are so cheap I find that in general people have level three spy satellites up before Cloaking technology is available.

Comments?

T-

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

no
and cloaking at level 2 no...

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This topic has been done to death before but, no I don't think so. It seems a little harsh when you first encounter it but it's pretty well balanced by the amount of research it takes. Yes if you know what you're doing you can make a beeline for it and it doesn't SEEM to cost much research -- but if you anticipate someone going for it, you put more effort into armor instead of shields.

[ September 12, 2002, 21:14: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

"I tend to look at weapons in terms of the damage per turn per KT of the component. PPB's are WAY ahead of the other weapons."

No, they aren't. Several weapons, including the APB, beat them out. Most effective for the relatively low research cost though (and even that can be a bit deceving).

"but if you anticipate someone going for it, you put more effort into armor instead of shields."

Opponent of mine in a PBW game did that. The results weren't pretty. Armor is nowhere near as effective as level III+ shields. Lot cheaper to research though, especially phased shields (side note: why is it that phased shields are so expensive to research even though they ONLY counter the PPB? Shields V is fine for most any other weapon)

Phoenix-D

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To some extent, MM has tried to implement a counter for many tactics. I just figure, that if every weapon had a counter that was easy to research (i.e. right off the first branch of the tech tree) then the game would be dull. Once you learned the tech tree (my method) or viewed it (everyone else's method) you could have a counter ready ASAP.

At some point the game would degrade into who could generate resources and research points faster. Which is to say who found the most large planets closer -- the winner is almost purely random luck with a touch of tactics, like Monopoly (TM) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Picture it, you happily colonize away. Your little light cruisers with Shields III and DUC 5 scouting for opprotunities -- suddenly you meet the TDM modpak Rage -- can you hold out long enough to reach phased shields? Can you save your people?

I think that's more fun than "Oh they use that weapon. Yawn. Oh well, I'll make sure I use that other component next time."

Now for Suicide Junkie's P&N, you have them alternating -- but phased shields are always weaker than normal, nice touch SJ.

[ September 12, 2002, 21:56: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

Again, if you look at it in terms of research invested, APB XII's do slightly higher average damage but take longer to research and are countered by low level shields that PPB's ignore.

The thought about lowering the cost of phased sheilds is a good one and would be another way of dealing with the issue. Maybe have planetary and system sheilds be X+ levels.

Almost every game I've been in players go straight for these weapons. The ones who don't do so as soon as their fleets get destroyed. That's usually an indicator that there is a balancing issue.

Tesco, do you want to let us in on your reasoning or are you just representing the my favorite weapon vote?

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

I guess it depends on which end of the PPB you are on.

Hmm,
Sissors, Rock, Paper, PPB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've stopped using them and the null space cannon against the A.I., it's just too easy. Well maybe against TDM modpak races if they have me on the ropes.

Thing is, if I can hold out long enough. Battleships, some armor, some shields, ECM III etc, fast engines, Anti Proton Beams, maybe one WMG -- I usually come out ahead of the Polaron or null space or WMG only Dreadnoughts. They lose more than I do. Hmm... is good planning and tactics an exploit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ September 12, 2002, 22:02: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you factor in their shield-skipping ability as extra damage, then, yes, they do. (and if your opponent isn't using shields, then he sets himself up for misery in many other ways (ship capture, engine destroyers)).
PPBs dominate the game from fairly early on until pretty late in the game. Are they necessary to win? Nope. But it's a lot easier to win with 'em than without 'em

-Spoon

[ September 12, 2002, 22:19: Message edited by: spoon ]

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

"Again, if you look at it in terms of research invested, APB XII's do slightly higher average damage but take longer to research and are countered by low level shields that PPB's ignore."

"I tend to look at weapons in terms of the damage per turn per KT of the component. PPB's are WAY ahead of the other weapons."

One or the other Tezzezar. Don't use one when I'm responding to an argument based on the other! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

APBs also have longer range. WMGs have a 30% to-hit bonus, and can run away between shots. Meson BLasters take about as much research as PPBs but don't drop off, so they do better damage/kt at max range. Ripper beams do much more damage at close range. Null-space cannons don't care what defenses you have, but are expensive to use (not to research, they cost less than APB).

PPBs are a bit imbalanced, but only because phased shields cost so much to research.

Phoenix-D

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

Shield Depleter and APB XII armed ships can slaughter PPB armed ships quite easily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

PPB beams are almost useless against Phased Shields...

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

"PPB beams are almost useless against Phased Shields..."

I wouldn't say that. They only loose 5 points of damage at close range to APBs, and cost a lot less to research.

Phoenix-D

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

But they cost like 4 or 5 times as much to build and maintain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1.5 times as much, actually. Build time only slightly affected, since most of the cost is in rads. And APBs only cost seven times as much to research...

APB XII -- 400 min/ 120 rad - 1,630,000 research
PPB V -- 500 min/ 300 rad - 240,000 research

[ September 13, 2002, 00:32: Message edited by: spoon ]

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

Heh, this again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

IMO:
Phased weapons should be slightly weaker than the nearest comparable standard weapon.
Phased shields should be available early, with only a bit more research than normal shields.
Phased shields should also be slightly weaker than standard shields.

Then, phased weapons become a support weapon instead of a main gun:
By carrying a few phased weapons, you may force the enemy to use the weaker phased shield generators, and take advantage by bLasting away with your more powerful normal damage weapons.
You may not even need to have any phased weapons in your assault fleet, but if your opponent believes you do, he will have some decisions to make. Psychological warfare anybody? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your method from P&N may be better balanced than the stock game. And MM maight want to implement it, or people could just play P&N. Like you said once, its fun even if you don't play as a pirate or nomad.

However, in the stock game, once you start achieveing 1 or 2 levels in phased shields, conditions are essentially the same as you suggest. You have to make some hard decisions on how to defend your ships. The difference is, you have to spend a lot of research time and research resources to achieve it.

Re: Poll: Are Phased Polaron Beams too powerful?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So I exaggerated.

The biggest advantage APBs have over PPBs is the 8 range. APB ships can at times out-range PPB ships.