Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

There need to be more sets of asymmetrical ships. That I know of, there are 2, the Gorn Imperium and the Breen Galacticum. Are there any others out there? And why don't more people make asymmetric ships?

Edit: Actually... the Gorn may not be asymmetric, they might just be at a bad angle, and part of the other side's wings are covered on some of the ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 29, 2002, 05:34: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

The reason you don't see more assymetrical shipsets is that almost all the shipsets available for SEIV were made by humans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Humans are very visual and symetrical creatures. It is hard for us to look at an asymetrical craft and not think it's got a problem.

But I would like to see a few more myself.

Geoschmo

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

There are 5 or 6 such race styles that I've made and a one andrey has made. If I ever dig them up, I'll repost them.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

On a similar note I'd like to see more realy bizzare ships that look really 'alien' I think the best one I've seen so far is the Tylmai.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Well i've been working 2 months before i left on assymetric ships. Also im trying to find what it takes to create a realy *alien*, *bizzare* or whatever race.

If you want i can post my assymetric ships here.

And i have to state it here. Only assymetric ships do look good. Only assymetric ships do look alien.

*IMPORTANT FOR ALL ORGANIC SHIP ARTISTS*
Only assymetric organic ship could ever look realy living. A fact.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well that's just a silly statement to be putting out there as a fact. It's certainly an opinion, and I do like asymetrical ship designs. But to state flatly that all living ships must be asymetrical is just as bad as someone stating that all ships should be symetrical. It's the variety that most of us appreciate.

Why would a living ship have to be asymetrical. Most living creatures that we know of are symetrical. Unless you thinkg that is some accident or uniqueness to life on earth. I would expect actually that most life in the universe takes symetrical forms. But that doesn't mean all life would. But it's all just a guess really. No ones guess is any better than any one elses.

Geoschmo

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Ok, if anyone is REALY interested, here is the link:

link

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Geoschmo, well yes i apologize for my too final statement. But i must say that i've had some experience drawing organic things and always had the problem of them being too symmetric. Look, i even bought a book on drawing "characters" which can also mean "organics", and something like 3rd page was dedicated to the need for the "organics" to bee assymetric. Even human - a little smaller ear, bigger eye, longer hand.... if you think of it nothing we know is realy symmetric.

Well i must say that this is just my opinion, sorry for the final statement.

EDIT: And hmm.. theoretically all organic ships are products of gene enginering, and there is no need for a genetist to design his creations to be symmetric, rather than effective.

[ September 29, 2002, 17:07: Message edited by: Taera ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Taera, I wasn't thinking on that small of a level. Yes you are correct very few if any humans or other organisms are truely and perfectly symetrical. There are always small imperfections. And for that metter interally we have many organs that are only one side or the other. But overall the tendancy of living things in our experience is towards, if not perfect symetry at least balance. Even plants whish are about the most asymetric lifeforms on our planet will tend to be close to symetrical on some axis, unless forced to be asymetrical by some outside influence.

As far as genetic engineering is concerned the question really isn't whther or not it is neccesary to be symetrical, but whether the designer would choose for it to be so. If the designer is from a species that evolved basically sypetrically as humans did, would they not feel more comfortable with that as we are? I don't know, but I tend to think they would.

You pictures are very cool by the way. I like them a lot.

Geoschmo

[ September 29, 2002, 17:53: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Taera: oh ... very VERY nice pics. I want the Illea shipset, dammit! Gimme! Gimme! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seriously, when that shipset is complete, I would KILL for a copy of it ...

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

oh thanks... i dont have much of the Illea and planning on focusing on different ships but i just might finish it... i can upload the rest of the ships i have (escort - BC) but its all nothing too special, the BC is the greatest of them all.

well ok, the link is:
link

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Many architecture is not symmetrical.

Humans are not perfectly symmetrical:
Facial features notably Eyes, Ears, and Nose are not symmetrical.
The human lung, liver, stomach, and kidneys are not symmetrical.

(One kidney is a bit bigger than the other... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That looks generally good, but you'e right, the BC is the best of them.

I'd say, slightly rework them, with the BC as the "theme defining ship".

For example, perhaps the escort would do better if you took the Frigate hull, stripped all but one of those "nacelle" like protrusions, made it about as big as the round bits on the bottom of the escort, and put it off to one side only.

Then, the Frigate can use two of them, either symmetrically aligned, or both on the same side. I'll assume both to one side.

For the next, the Destroyer; I'd say, two to one side, a third to the next, or, start with the sort of "comm array" outrigger, like the BC has.

Up from Destroyer to Light Cruiser, add an engine to the rear, and put in some weaponry-looking bits (similar to the BC) along with the twin engines.

And so on; every ship progressing along a logical flow, from Escort through BC up to Dreadnaught, and even (maybe) the BaseShip.

Asymmetry is harder to "get away with" in the sense of a starbase though, unless it does not look like it rotates to produe virtual gravity, for the most part.

However, balancing a long, far-from-the-core communications/sensor array, with a closer-in, massive 1/4, 1/3, or even 1/2 circle "gravity ring", could work.

The set, especially following the partially asymmetric theme of the BC, stands to be a GORGEOUS one, and would become one of my perrenial Favorites if you followed it (along the lines of the above, perhaps).

The organics also looked good, but I'm off my "organic ships" kick for the moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Many architecture is not symmetrical.

Humans are not perfectly symmetrical:
Facial features notably Eyes, Ears, and Nose are not symmetrical.
The human lung, liver, stomach, and kidneys are not symmetrical.

(One kidney is a bit bigger than the other... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right. Which we have already discussed and I acknowleded earlier in the thread. But haveing one eye a milimeter bigger than the other is not really asymetrical for the purposes of our discussion. That would be like saying a battle ship is an asymetrical design because it only has an airlock hatch on one side of the ventral pod. If it were, would you even notice it in a 36 x 36 bitmap image? What most people are talking about with asymetrical ship designs would be equivalent to a being with two feet on one leg and both arms on one side of it's body.

I agree it makes for interesting and very alien looking ships. But since almost every life form on earth is basically symetrical, or at least tends towards it if possible, we are safe making some assumptions. Not hard cold assurances of course, but if the processes that formed life on earth hold true throughout the universe, you would tend to think that it is common for life forms on other planets to also be basically symetrical.

Geoschmo

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Taera: Hey, nice organic ship set. The black dots are very reminicient of spider eyes, right down to the fact that there are multiple sizes on the same 'face'. I'd use this shipset once it is complete... keep us posted for the release date.
I'm curious if anyone has released a plant based shipset, sort of like the plant guys in Starcontrol (I)?

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Look for the United Flora Empire. It is plant-based. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Cephaleaopia (or so) are giant squids.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

United FLora is one of the most orignal and cool looking SE shipsets out there. It's one of my Favorites.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You mean the Supox. they were only in StarControl II, not Star Control I. Fun race, but, a VERY "bit part" in SC2's storyline game, and their ship's ability (the lateral movement) is VERY tough to apply well, as a human player, during a Melee, anyway.

Hmm. Though the lack of variety in Star Control race's "fleets" (each race had a SINGLE ship type) would make it difficult, I'd love to see a Star Control themed mod, complete with shipsets etc. 8) Once could even release the mod as SC-1, SC-2, SC-3, and SC-All varieties (since the mix of available races changes from one SC game to another, usually by addition of new races ...).

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The speech files should be fun :-)

I think someone made an Urquan-Kzer-ah shipset some time ago.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Star Control 1 is the game with 4 factions - blue, green, red and grey, everyone with the same types but very different ships and abilities, right?

It shouldnt be too difficult to mod, their ships are rather simple.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Many architecture is not symmetrical.

Humans are not perfectly symmetrical:
Facial features notably Eyes, Ears, and Nose are not symmetrical.
The human lung, liver, stomach, and kidneys are not symmetrical.

(One kidney is a bit bigger than the other... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right. Which we have already discussed and I acknowleded earlier in the thread. But haveing one eye a milimeter bigger than the other is not really asymetrical for the purposes of our discussion. That would be like saying a battle ship is an asymetrical design because it only has an airlock hatch on one side of the ventral pod. If it were, would you even notice it in a 36 x 36 bitmap image? What most people are talking about with asymetrical ship designs would be equivalent to a being with two feet on one leg and both arms on one side of it's body.

I agree it makes for interesting and very alien looking ships. But since almost every life form on earth is basically symetrical, or at least tends towards it if possible, we are safe making some assumptions. Not hard cold assurances of course, but if the processes that formed life on earth hold true throughout the universe, you would tend to think that it is common for life forms on other planets to also be basically symetrical.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not only is life on earth basically symmetrical, symmetry is one of the defining characteristics of beauty. The more symmetrical a face is, the more beautiful it appears to the average human. I found an article on this years ago, which included a couple pictures of Lyle Lovett (one of the weirdest-looking guys around); one picture was a standard full-face; but the second was a morphed Version, where the authors copied the right half of his face, reversed it, and used it as the left half of his face. Once they made his face perfectly symmetrical, he really was a decent-looking guy. So, natural selection should tend towards symmetry. Perfect symmetry isn't going to happen, but many people come pretty close. Barring major accidents, of course.

Besides, the asymmetry being asked for in ship design is major, not minor. Like having a wing/nacelle/control pod on one side of the ship, but not the other.

And one thought on why ships are usually symmetrical - in non-SE4 combat, where turn radius and weapon arcs are taken into account, it could be dangerous (if not suicidal) to only have weapons/sensors/etc. only mounted on one side of the ship, as the enemy (if they're intelligent) would focus their attack on the less-protected flank. Now, in SE4, where turn radius and weapon arcs don' matter, let the ships be as asymmetrical as possible. Have some fun. Or, if you get bored with asymmetry, try for more than just bilateral (i.e., right/left or top/bottom type) symmetry; go for tri- quad- or even pentalateral symmetry. Or more, if you're that talented...

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The original Star Control had two sides with seven races each, with each race having a single ship design and special ability. IIRC, the four colors were used on the star map to show Alliance control, uncolonized, Hierarchy control, and unexplored, respectively.

From a physics standpoint, symmetry give you a more predictable center of gravity, which makes it easier to control the direction of acceleration under thrust.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope.

Star Control 1 has TWO factions. The Ur-Quan and their Hierarchyof BAttle Thralls ... and the Alliance of Free Stars.

On the Hierarchy side, hoping I don't miss a few, were (SC1) the Ur-Quan, VUX, Mycon, Androsynth, Umgah, Ilwrath, and Spathi. SC2 added the Thraddash, and introduced the Ur-Quan's "sibling" secies, the Kor-Ah.

On the Alliance side were the Humans, Chenjesu, Shofixti (samurai squirrels in space! lol!), Yehat, Mrnhrm, Ariloulaleelay (a.k.a. Arilou), and the Syreen. SC2 added, in the New Alliance of Free Stars, the Chmrr (combined Chenjesu and Mrnhrm), Zoq-Fot-Pik, Supox, Utwig, the Yehat's own splintered "sibling" race, the Pkunk, the Slylandro, and the Orz.

Neutrals in SC2, were the Melnorme traders, and ... damn, I can't remember, the slave-trading bastards in their "Mauler" flying-cannon ships ... whatever their names were.

SC3 introduced a few other races; I forget most of them.

...

The trick is, each race had it's own, single, sole ship design. Each had (usually) two abilities, the main weapon, and some special ability.

For example, the Arilou "flying saucer" affair had a VERY-short-range, rapid-reload laser, that auto-aimed towards the enemy. Their special ability was to teleport (randomly) aroudn the battlefield, a useful escape trick after making a (dangerous) strafing run on the enemy.

Meanwhile, the Vux had slow, barge-in-space, klingon-lookalike warships with a hugely powerful, mid-range laser out the front. Their SPECIAL ability made them combat worthy -- little "limpet" missiles, that slowed the enemy down if they hit (and clung, ofc).

So, each race would need to have their own set of technologies to be properly done in SE4 style, mod-wise.

Shipset-wise ... each race had only a single ship, and, they weren't always of the same "size" (the Arilou SKiff and Shofixti Scout would both likely be Escort of at best Frigate sized vessels, for example). however, a certain style MIGHT be extractable from those basic images, if a talented shipset designer was motivated to assay the attempt. 8)

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

[quote]Originally posted by capnq:

Quote:

From a physics standpoint, symmetry give you a more predictable center of gravity, which makes it easier to control the direction of acceleration under thrust.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With centerline engines, perhaps.

But ... look at the Illea ship. You have a core, roughly-symmetrical ship. On the far side (form our viewpoint) you have, close to the core, an obviously large,massive assembly, probably the main weapons array.

On the NEAR side, you haveonly what appears to be a small communications array -- but note it is flung well out from the core hull. This preserves (somewhat) the center of gravity of the ship, relative to the production of thrust.

It doesn't matter the SHAPE of the ship, it matters the distribution of MASS, when it comes to *propulsive* symmetry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is so bizzare to hear you say that. When I took high school psychology the teacher told us that asymmetry was preferable. A perfectly symmetrical face would just look wrong. People would dislike it and not know why. But if it improved Lyle Lovett http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , well I gotta remember that one to use for my wedding photos.

That teacher also tried to convince us that striving for perfect symmetry was a sign of a sick mind. If an adult still drew a stick figure house symmetrically -- perfect square, triange roof, flanked by two equal trees, chiminey and sun in the center -- you had to look out, they are likly to crack under pressure.

He actually taught this method and other tricks to people who wanted to avoid the draft in the '50's. And presumably it worked (or the other tricks did, or everyone just got lucky)

[ October 01, 2002, 03:57: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Pax: Manuevering thrust calculations would be a [explicative deleted] on a severely asymetrical ship. I think...

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Dumbluck: I would contend otherwise. A standard set of manuevering thrusters is three sets of four: yaw, roll, pitch. As long as each member of a given set is placed symmetrically with respect to an axis passing through the center of gravity of the ship, the calculations become trivial.

And on top of that, you have the computer to do all the heavy math lifting for you anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Correct. Asymetry is purely a visual thing. For any ship design to be sound from an engineering poitn of view it HAS to be "balanced" around a center of gravity and the thrust has to be applied either centerline to that or balanced on all sides of that centerline or you get rotation instead of directional thrust.

Balance is not an option, it has to be balanced. But being balaced does not mean it has to be visually symetrical.

Geoschmo

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works here, how about battle damage?

Would it be easier to recalculate the thrust balance and vectoring in order to fly straight after a torpedo has torn a chunk out of your hull given a previously-symmetrical ship or not?

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd say it probably wouldn't matter either way. Unless the damage was to the engines themselves, or the guidance computer, it shouldn't have an effect on either. And the damage was to one fo these critical areas it would effect either ship to the same degree likely.

Geoschmo

EDIT: Hmm. I may have answered that too fast. Given that an asymetrical design of the same mass would likely have mass farther out from the center of gravity, then perhaps. Because the farther form the COG you lose mass due to battle damage, the more it will affect the handling characteristics. I still tend to think the engines and thrusters could compensate, but that depends on how much redundancy is built into the design.

[ October 01, 2002, 17:15: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Presuming your species is "normal" and needs water, possibly in large quantities ... place your water tanks in such a way as to permit shedding weight where you need to to rebalance the ship (at least partially).

Also consider, against many energy weapons -- especially lasers! -- misting water out around your ship, soit freezes into gajillions of ice crystals in a cloud, is a decent form of protection from the beams. As long as it refracts optically, a cloud of ice crystals will diffuse it a bit before it hits your ARMOR.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope, it wouldn't matter. If the missile has physically torn out a chunk, your ship is now asymmetrical, no matter whether it started that way or not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Calculating the new moments of inertia shouldn't be difficult for the computer though, so long as it can determine exactly which chunk of the ship is missing.

I suspect, though, that if enough of your ship is missing to seriously affect the thrust balance--well, it's probably time to put your head 'tween your legs and kiss your *** goodbye. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Yaw, Pitch, Thrust, Centre of gravity, Bah!! Your all thinking like those inferior human beings. My ideal race doesn't concern themselves with such trivialites because they've designed a ship that doesn't need to throw little bits of stuff out the back to move, or they are massless pure energy beings, or else they just like moving in circles. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think what makes a ship look really alien (and thus cool IMHO) is if it doesn't make any sense.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is so bizzare to hear you say that. When I took high school psychology the teacher told us that asymmetry was preferable. A perfectly symmetrical face would just look wrong. People would dislike it and not know why. But if it improved Lyle Lovett http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , well I gotta remember that one to use for my wedding photos.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Funny thing is I remember reading an artile were they said the opposite was true. That assymetrical faces were more attractive. One of they examples they used was Gillian Anderson. A babe by most defintions.

Just proves my theory that if you wait long enough someone will do a study to prove everything. I waiting for the one the proves a diet of Beer and Doritos is a healthy lifesytle

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like this?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1033509600.bmp

Of course it's not really asymetrical (Although it kind of looks it from this angle) but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

LOL!!!

Where in the net did you find that picture?!

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He didn't find it on the net. He found it in his backyard. What else do you think he'd spend his extream amounts of cash on, besides a one of a kind RV with a bonus wing on the side?

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

WOW! Nice ship Geo. Considering I usually play an empire called the Dundas Rednecks it would be perfect. Does it come in a pickup model. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

/me blinks

Y'all seem amazed by Geo's pic, but please tell me I'm not the only one who recognizes the movie that ship's from. 'Cause then I'll have to feel old. And I'm only 24! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 02, 2002, 04:16: Message edited by: LazarusLong42 ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Yeah! Spaceballs!

I have that taped at home, and I'm even younger than L.L. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

*Ludicrous Speed!*
And cans of "Perri-Air"
And "1-2-3-4-5"
Whee! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

How could you forget:

WE BRAKE FOR NOBODY

??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

I HATE Yougurt !!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

The radar Sir! it appears to be *JAMMED*

Hmmm... Raspberry... my favorite! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 02, 2002, 16:32: Message edited by: henk brouwer ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

COL. SANDURZ: He's an *******, sir.
DARK HELMET: I know that. What's his name?
COL. SANDURZ: That is his name, sir. *******. Major *******.
DARK HELMET: And his cousin?
COL. SANDURZ: He's an ******* too, sir. Gunners mate first class Philip *******.
DARK HELMET: How many *******s we got on this ship anyhow?
ALL CREW: Yo!!
DARK HELMET: I knew it. I'm surrounded by *******s!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif this is going of topic..)

Spaceballs the toiletpaper!

(And yes, I am still waiting for the sequel, Spaceballs II, the search for more money..)

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://www.clarkinsurance.com/motrhme1.jpg

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Hey, theres the baseship for the Redneck Mod.

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

As I was going to say before the power went out...

Getting back in the general direction of the topic; the MegaMaid in Spaceballs was pretty asymmetrical. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Now, commence operation 'VacuSuck.'" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 02, 2002, 23:33: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Asymmetrical Ship Sets
 

Thank you. I was starting to wonder. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

May the Schwartz be with you.