Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Proportions mod Version 2.5 is available from The Proportions mod web page.

Version 2.5:

-------------------------------------------------
Gameplay - Component Enhancement (i.e. "Mounts"):
-------------------------------------------------
* Added Scale mounts. These make the size, cost and supply use of certain
components directly proportional to the size of the thing they are
built on. Applies to components which naturally require effort and size
based on design size: Stealth Armor, Scattering Armor, Emissive Armor,
Scanner Jammer, Emergency Propulsion, Cloaking Devices.
Note: Upgraded games from earlier Proportions Versions will find existing
components of these types unchanged, but unable to be repaired until
retrofit with scale-mounted Versions.
-----------------
Gameplay - Armor:
-----------------
* Added a new type of standard armors - armor "plating", which is armor
covering the entire hull. Its size and cost is based on hull size (via the
scale mounts). Its structure is not particularly high, but it is not hit
first - its main feature is that it absorbs damage per non-armor-skipping
hit, at a level between armored structure and emissive armor.
This represents a completely armored hull's ability to reduce the damage
of every incoming hit without generally getting "shot off". It can be
combined with armored structure to prolong this protection.
* Renamed standard armors as "armored structure". These represent armor
reinforcing the hull, and work as before, though they now have a very small
emissive effect.
* Stretched emissive armor to six levels, reduced its structure back near
what it is in the unmodded game, and restored its "hit first" status.
It offers the highest emissive ability, but can be shot apart fairly
quickly. It can be combined with Ablative armor to increase its longevity.
* Added tech areas for specialized armor types (stealth, scattering, emissive).
* Adjusted costs of stealth, scattering, and emissive armor.
* Added three levels of "Scattering Shell" non-armored hull coating.
* Added Niche Reinforcement for obessive designers who must use every space.
-----------------
Gameplay - Other:
-----------------
* Changed Graviton Hellbore damage type to Skips All Shields. They really
needed enhancement, and it seems reasonable that shields would fail to
interact with a gravitational weapon.
* Extended Tachyon Cannons to level V, similar to extensions to other heavy
weapons in Proportions.
* Solved problem with SE4 not offering upgrades to Complexes and Megacomplexes.
This required re-assigning Roman numerals to them, so now Complexes are
IV through VI, and Megacomplexes are VII through IX.
* Re-defined Smart Bombs to new weapons which bypass planetary shields.
There are missile and bomb Versions, with different multiple prerequisites.
* Added a new tech area for Tectonic Bombs, and extended them by two levels,
adding cheaper low-tech Versions, as well as Small Tectonic Bombs, which
inherit the abandoned damage types from the old smart bombs (because it
was discovered that these would destroy entire cultural centers with
single hits once planetary shields were down). The old tectonic bombs are
now harder to research, and require specific research rather than being
always included in Stellar Manipulation.
* Quartered damage done by Neutron Bombs, for balance reasons.
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Added "B" code to Standard Base Mount, as a visual indication that one
has remembered to use this to get the free +30 to-hit on space station
weapons.
* Removed all trailing spaces from Math.txt design names file.
----------------------------
Design Upgrade Improvements:
----------------------------
* Thanks to Gimboid's Component Editor, it was easy to spot a number of
components which would change type during an automatic design upgrade.
Thanks also to those who pointed out some continuing problems with
certain components. I think I've now done them all.
The changes are as follows:
* Computer Pilots no longer upgrade to Master Computers.
* Shield Generators no longer upgrade to Phased Shield Generators.
* Fighter shield generators no longer upgrade to AFV ones (!).
* PD Beams no longer upgrade to phased polaron beams.
* Allegiance Subverters no longer upgrade to short-ranged Versions.
* Massive Shield Depleters no longer upgrade to short-ranged Versions.
* Massive Ionic Dispersers no longer upgrade to short-ranged Versions.
* Small Electric Discharge no longer upgrades to surface Version (!).
* Small Acid Globule no longer upgrades to surface Version (!).
---
AI:
---
* Ukra-Tal would never research rock planet colonization (fixed by oleg).

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Oh, I forgot to document one other change:

Fighter Carriers (ship types) now require their own tech area, as well as Ship Construction. This was done because it makes sense, offers interesting decision (research carriers, or make do with other ways to deploy fighters), and also because it solves the bug where analyzing a light carrier would give an empire (which lacked fighter tech) level 2 knowledge of fighter technology.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

PvK, what happens if you already have carriers and upgrade to the new Version?

Oh, and
"Fighter shield generators no longer upgrade to AFV ones (!)."

Thank you. That was a nasty bug.

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Not a bug but an annoying typo. "Agrarian" is spelt "Agrarian" not "argrarian".

What a pendantic bastard I am...

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

I see you left AI_designcreation.txt without changes but modified AI_construction.txt file.
Does AI now build nice mixture of ships or is it still escorts as major hull size ??

Theres is a bug in carrier design for most races such as eee/jraenar/phong... :
Carrier design gas "must have" launch/recover fighters and also launch/recover fighters as a majority component with "spaces per one=60". When AI choose carrier hull, it AUTOMATICALY fill it up to 50% with fighter bays. Then, when it reads "spaces per one=60", it load another 800/60=14(round up) fighter bays ! The end result is a carrier with bays and nothing else (well, except engines and 1 shield). Looking at list of miss. abilities, I am sure this is not what you had in mind !

Simple change "spaces per one=6000" in major. component results in much more blanced design, with cargo bays, supply, etc.

Also, as I mentioned before, there is a bug in Xiati research file - they never research second level of temporal studies and can NOT research temporal weapons for whole game and are forced to use DUC. Or is it intential because of TDB bug ??

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you have already built some, you can either analyze your own ships to get the tech, or research the carrier tech, which you will have the Ship Construction and Fighter tech prerequisites for already, and is not a particularly expensive tech.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was of course done to keep in spirit with the original SE4 texts... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks dogscoff - I will fix that. "Arg!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I haven't seen the AI building mostly escorts for a long, long time. If you run a High tech game and just look at the first few turns, maybe, but generally I haven't seen any problem with the AI building a nice mix of ship sizes, as long as they are programmed to. The races you made do this, for example. I was running a major war against the Nostropholo AI, for example, and it was mainly building its largest ships (light cruisers at the point I was playing).

Quote:

Theres is a bug in carrier design for most races such as eee/jraenar/phong... : Carrier design gas "must have" launch/recover fighters and also launch/recover fighters as a majority component with "spaces per one=60". When AI choose carrier hull, it AUTOMATICALY fill it up to 50% with fighter bays. Then, when it reads "spaces per one=60", it load another 800/60=14(round up) fighter bays ! The end result is a carrier with bays and nothing else (well, except engines and 1 shield). Looking at list of miss. abilities, I am sure this is not what you had in mind ! Simple change "spaces per one=6000" in major. component results in much more blanced design, with cargo bays, supply, etc.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wasn't aware of this. I'd seen carriers from the Terrans looking ok, but I hadn't studied it much. I'll check it out, thanks.

Quote:

Also, as I mentioned before, there is a bug in Xiati research file - they never research second level of temporal studies and can NOT research temporal weapons for whole game and are forced to use DUC. Or is it intential because of TDB bug ??

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ach, yes, I see you're right. Funny, since I'd seen them doing extremely well even without the temporal weapons. And, there is a variant of the Xiati that doesn't even have Temporal Knowledge. It's kind of interesting, but inefficient. Probably not too bad because of the TDB bug, as you mention, but ya, I should fix it.

Thanks!

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

"I haven't seen the AI building mostly escorts for a long, long time."

I'm doing a MP Proportions game, and the Sergetti seem to be building mostly escorts. (as in, 20 escorts, 2 carriers, with the odd light cruiser thrown in somewhere) Unless that isn't an AI that has been tweaked..?

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

What about a MP junkyard and proportions? crazy hard. and very slow, sounds like something for TCP/IP or for you ministers

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, ok. There are some AI I haven't tested a lot, and while they are not like the old ones which would mainly build escorts, they are set up to build a bunch of escorts and not a whole lot else for a while. It'd probably be good to go adjust some of this.

PvK

[ October 01, 2002, 06:22: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

"point defence mount" is quite funny -
You can have "Point defence Wave-Motion Gun"
Pitty it is still can not target fighters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

May be restrict point-defence mount to weapons that can target fighters, like APB or MB. Not a major issue of course and a lot of work to fish out all weapon family numbers. Ahh, forget it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, ya, I know. I made the PD mounts before 1.78, when there were no such options. However, with the defensive bonuses of small ships, a PD Wave Motion Gun might actually be a reasonable thing to build, if your enemy is fielding packs of small nimble attack boats.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Pvk,

This might sound strange, but when I attempt to extract the 2.5 zip file, I get a directory structure only - no files. Yet, when I attempt to extract the files a second time to the same location, I get a overwrite confirmation on text files that don't appear.

When I look at the zip file in WinAce, I get only the directory structure. However, when I look at the Proportions 2.4.2 zip file, everything looks normal.

Could you take a look at this to see if the problem is with your zip file or with my machine.

Thanks!

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

I had no problems with unzipping. very strange.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Okay, I found the problem. Apparently the zip file makes a subdirectory called Proportions under the Proportions2.5 directory. It apparently duplicated the structure (or I extracted it incorrectly).

Anyway, once I cut and pasted the lower complete structure to where it was supposed to be everything is fine.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

What program are you using to extract the files, Nitey?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BTW, I want to point out that I spelled it correctly in 13 out of 14 places. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">14! I've only ever researched level two... I guess I need to pay more attentio to my organics...

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Pvk,

I used WinAce, and it was as Geoschmo said. I used the default name as I always do and it put a empty structure along with a proportions subdirectory under a directory name of Proportions 2.5. As Geoschmo points out this is not actually a bad feature as I kept my Proportions 2.4.2 directory intact in case I want to revert back (or look back) at files that you or I have changed. I'll just have to make a mental note for next time to skip the empty directories from above and extract only the directory stucture under the proportions directory.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Ah that makes sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So, how do you like Shield Depletor + Shard Cannon combo ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif When I testet Nostropholo AI, it wiped out two other Proportions AI, basicaly because single LC with two CA III can kill hordes of escorts without getting any damage at all. This is why I am so adamant about rearranging AI_designcreation file and making AI build bigger ships.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you are using Winzip I have an idea what happened. Winzip allows you to right click on a zip files and get some quick unzip options. One is "Extract here" and one is "Extract to folder nnnnnnn" and for the n's it will insert the name of the zip file. If you used the second option it would have created a folder named the same as the zip file and then unzipped the contents of the zip file into that. The zip file itself was archived using a folder simply called "proportions".

What you did Nitey actually isn't a bad thing because not everybody does as good a job zipping up their mods as Pvk. Sometimes you will get one that is just the data folders ond other stuff that goes in the mod folder without the mod folder itself. If you just do a simple extract on those instead of "extract to folder" you run the risk of overwriting your stock SEIV folders. And if you end up with the mod folder inside another folder it's a simple matter as you say of moving the mod folder up a level.

Geoschmo

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

I honestly cannot see any use for Solar Sails. They are way too large for the amount of thrust they provide. I can use contra terrane engines and solar panels on a LC and get infinite range (just like 10 more supplies used per turn than generated), and use 20 fewer kilotons than Solar Sails 3, and both get 6 MP.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

cheaper?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

The cost difference is too small to be relevant.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Oleg, I agree about the AI ship size choices, and adjusted them all a couple of days ago. I'll release them in 2.5.1 very shortly - I'm just waiting to see if there's anything else I should sneak in before I package it up and release it.

The Nostropholo (and by inheritance, the Chryslonite) ship designs up to LC look good. The weapon mix is effective against either shields or armor, and is very good against ships with most types of armor. One possible counter-design would be a lot of plain armored structure and low/no shields, or shields and strong shield regeneration. They were making good use of mines, too.

They might benefit from an occasional PD ship, too.

Imp. Fryon, yes I'm afraid your assessment of Solar Sails is more or less right, at least for large combat ships. The Contra-Terrene/Panel design uses the same mass, gives one greater speed, gives a +11% defense bonus, has a larger supply storage capacity, with the disadvantages being cost (about 1800 vs. 3000) and supply income (the sail design generates 120/star/turn, but big deal).

The Proportions solar sails aren't intended to be superior warship drives, but I think they're probably a bit undesirable, given the output of solar collectors (which are I think probably more powerful than they ought to be, since they can make infinite-range ships fairly easy to develop).

So, I'm thinking of cutting the size of solar sails in half (to 10 kT, like engines), and also perhaps halving the supply generation of solar collectors.

Would anyone be heart-broken by this, or have any preferred suggestions?

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

That sounds like a decent plan for the sails.

However... I am not really liking the move of Stealth Armor to a new tech area. I don't mind Stealth Armor being moved to its own tech tree for new games, but PBW games in progress get messed up. It really screws up star ship designs.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can see where it's a bit unfair that those who have already deployed stealth armor could deconstruct and analyze their own ships to gain a research advantage. Are there other reasons I'm missing?

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Umm... that's not my point at all. I can no longer build my warships, which is a big problem. I can not afford to scrap any to get the Stealth Armor tech.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Oh yeah... this problem applies to Carriers being in their own tech tree as well.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Hmm, but doesn't it let you complete any ships in progress? At Armor TL 4+, you could surely come up with an interim design that doesn't involve stealth armor, if you need to start new warships while you research Stealth Armor or Fighter Carriers. Since you will have the other prerequisites already, it won't take all that long to get the new tech area.

But ya, it's imperfect for old games upgrading. If people are unconvinced by my above suggestion and interested in a variant patch, I could make a 2.4.3 that has the other changes but not the new tech areas.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

I am against having my empires artificially damaged as a result of upgrades. Any lost RP is bad.

I would be in favor of the variant mod idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Another observation how AI build ships:

For example, I want to build 10 attack fire destroyers and 10 attack missile destroyers.
If insert two entries, first for AFD with "must have 10" and then AMD with "must have 10", AI will build only 10 AFD and stops. But when I make "must have 20" for AMD, AI builds 10 AFD and then 10 AMD !!

It seems like SE still check numbers for ships types (like "attack ship") even though entries in the file use design names !
It obviuosly have big implications for most Proportions AI which build bunch of escorts and then will NOT build bigger ships even though separate calls for bigger ships are present.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Hmm.

Would taking 2.5, and setting the new tech areas to "start level: 1: and no pre-req for ONE TURN do the trick? I'm thinking we might be able to trick SE4 into thinking the players have already researched the field when we change it back..

EDIT: answer: No. Same approach could make it free to research though..just set the players back a single turn on *new* construction.

Phoenix-D

[ October 05, 2002, 19:54: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Actually, how about we just run 2.4.2 for say 2-3 more turns, and anyone who has tech for carriers or stealth or scattering armor who want to keep that tech, can just build some engineless escorts as examples during this time, and then analyze them when we upgrade to 2.5.1.

This is a cheap way to get what is about to be something the other players will need to research, which I would say more than makes up for the inconvenience of building yourself some cheap examples.

And, it's a lot less headache for me than having to fork the Version, and less headache for PBW administrators, who have a general policy of trying to limit mods to one Version on PBW at a time.

Would that be ok with you, Imperator Fryon?

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Not really, since the game that sparked this is already upgraded to 2.5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

"And, it's a lot less headache for me than having to fork the Version, and less headache for PBW administrators, who have a general policy of trying to limit mods to one Version on PBW at a time."

Actually I was refering to the indivdual game owners doing this. It wouldn't be difficult for me to run a turn or two offline to accomplish this, for example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT: besides, the original idea wouldn't work anyway. Though I think reducing the cost of the new areas to 0 briefly would..

Phoenix-D

[ October 05, 2002, 22:21: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Ok, well for the purposes of the PBW game I'm administering (PvK Proportions 1), would it be all right if I just send a warning and run the game 2-3 turns, so people can build themselves examples if they want to?

(BTW, I notice that actually self-analysis won't work except for fighter carriers until I make 2.5.1, which I'll probably post tomorrow.)

I guess I'd like to suggest that people follow Pheonix-D's suggestion and bug their game admin to run a quick turn with modded files to make up for any problems they have with existing games, for instance by lowering the cost of the new tech areas to a low number for a turn. However, personally, it seems to me that (once I make it work in 2.5.1), the self-analysis technique actually will be more of an advantage than an inconvenience for players who were able to reach the techs that have new prerequisites. Although, in the case Fryon describes, where the game upgraded to 2.5 before the issue was noticed, I can see how that could be a problem.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Just installed 2.5 and started a game.

I played out the first turn, clicked end turn, and got an error:

"Invalid Filename"

Any ideas?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Invalid filename is a new one to me. Are you sure the files got extracted to the right directories?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds to me like a problem with the auto-save function- probably trying to save to a directory that has since been deleted, or maybe the filename you entered uses invalid characters.

Make sure you've got a proportions/savegame and that it's not savegames. If that doesn't fix it, try to save the game manually and see what directory/ filename the savegame requester defaults to.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

Back to the point about solar sails, I should also point out that they can be useful to add a single sail as the Last engine on a design with normal engines, because often they will have enough movement points to give the ship the same final speed as another regular engine (depending on how the numbers round out), but they use no supplies, and actually generate them, so they can increase the range of some designs that way.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is correct, and nice sometimes. The problem with all of the different engine types is, you need a couple of minutes to find out the optimal engine configuration (put engines together, replace one, two, with sails, next try with a mix of efficient eng. etc.). A kind of background calculator would be nice, mmh?