Probably a solution to AS reign
 

Yes i know i have far too much ideas today. Still, i've been reading people saying how powerful AS is and perharps it should be changed a little. Think for a minute, what weapon (or actually a pair of weapons) in the game could have been most useful but was limited by MM? right, the tractor/repulsor. They are limited by size modifiers - escort cant push frigate.

Maybe a similar limitation should be included to the AS? Either size or fleet experience. The second one would be an interesting option because psychic have their great training facility.

Any good as an idea?

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

Proposal: an indestructable (or hard to be destructed by virus) computer family component, called "counsellar" or "mentat" at the end of the computer research line.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

I love the way it is, because the AS is one of the few weapons used by AI empires that can create a real problem for a human players. Especially if combined with computer virus!

However for human players only games just increase the damage resistence of the master computer, decrease the damage and range of the computer virus, decrease the range and damage (= conVersion probability) of the AS and you can create the balance you like without new components or weapons.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

AS is a mighty weapon, indeed. But do not forget the cascade effect, when you get one of the AS ships by enter ship or intel project. Big AS fleets can be wiped out easily and cheap by some chance. This effect is enough for a counter, I think.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

IMHO, the weak point of AS ship is vulnerability to swarm mixture of fighters and small ships with missiles, master computer and max. range strategy - big size of now useless AS makes it hard to have enough point defence.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I used to do that, it's really easy on tactical, and oh so cheezy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif On strategic, the AI puts telekinetic projectors on first, so you always get a damaged first, subverted next ship.

I do like the ship experience provideing defence against the subverter.

OK here's an idea for a counter. A psychic only weapon that can attack and destroy the allegiance Subverter. That will make the cascade less viscous.

Why psychic only? Because I don't believe every weapon should have a counter. IMHO, if everything had a counter, the game becomes dull. Once you know the tech tree, whoever has the most planets with research and resources wins, with no hope for the little guy to launch a snipe attack.

Besides, I'm sick of seeing the Abbidon in CueCappa ships -- it's just irritating.

[ October 09, 2002, 02:43: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

I think oleg has is right, there is no problem with the AS. The best counter is better strategy, max weapons range, drones and fighters, and swarm tactics work wonders. There is no "perfect" weapon in this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It seems to me that a weapon with no counter would be even worse; everyone would try to get that weapon as quickly as possible, and whoever got it first would probably win.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

Sissors / Paper / Rock / Human Mind
I feel that is the combination that makes the Game.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

Best weapon against the AS... actually anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif is the Phased polaron beam.

The PPB has a range of 6.
The AS has a range of 5.

PPB skips shields. PPB also with it's high damage rips through ships it can't close to.

So just go to tactical and use the range strategy against them. Works every time.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

APB XIIs are a much better weapon, with range 8, and better damage than PPB. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

The AS is a big shock the first time you get "subverted". I remember mine in an early game against the AI. I was kicking Capa butt across 3 systems. One of my ships was sitting over Cua's world waiting for troop transports. My transports arive and got schreaded. It may have been dumbluck that explained it for me,
"Ah, the dreaded Cua Capa Alligance Subverter" (only his spelling was better).

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

I wasn't surprised when I meet the AS, because I had tried it first in the demo. It really was incredible just taking the AI's ships. Then I saw how cheezy it was and let the AI have it.

I was worried once I found out about deconstruct and analyze. I thought, "Okay, these psychics have got to be killed, or soon they'll have organic armor, shard cannon, time bursting, talisman carrying dreadnoughts"

Fortunately, it doesn't work that way.

Anyone else notice the psycic AI's tend to lose ground in late mid game? They subvert more ships than they can support, and might not get them to a shipyard to scrap them.

[ October 08, 2002, 12:58: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True, balanced by requiring das uber tech to be a racial tech which consumes points

[ October 09, 2002, 02:41: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

"True, balanced by requiring das uber tech to be a racial tech which consumes points"

Which makes things even more predictable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

You could just make it ultra-expensive, serves the same purpose. If Munchkin-armed DNs can kill 3 normal DNs before dying, it's a nasty weapon. But if it costs so much you can build *4* normal DNs for every Munckkin-equipped one..

Phoenix-D

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

I have no problem with the Psychic weapon. It has short range. If it misses, it takes a long time to reload. A Null Space Talismen ship will shred most anything it shoots at. Look at Base ships with a talisman and 5 massive mount Null Space. They will destroy any ship in one volley. Then they pull back for 2 turns while they reload. I recently played in a game where the 2 Psychic players lost to separate Religious players. With the economic benefits of shrines, Religious players can affort to build expensive ships.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

If the alliegence subverter seem to be a problem, how about this. The subverted ship returns to the original empire's control at some point.

It could be right after combat, so the only effect is to pacify some ships and take them out of combat.

Or they could stick around for a number of turns and then drift away. They'd probably attack the nearest target after they shook the fuzz out of their brains.

Getting them to a space yard in time and scrapping them first would be the only way to permanantly deal with subverted ships. Besides bLasting them to space dust that is.

This would help the AI from capturing too many ships. And prevent some of the exploits.

'Tho I still don't see a problem with the psyic races. Most other races don't have ship weapons that do damage turn after turn, or cause ships to appear right next to others (barring intel).

The alliegence subverter is just wierd, that's all. Totally different from other weapons. And that just calls for unique tactics on both sides.

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

There is no solution because there isn't a problem. AS does not rule the game. It's a short ranged one-shot-wonder. To use it effectively your ships must either have the durability or speed to close the range and hit what they target. The counter to it can be built by anyone who researches it, Master Computer.

The problem is the perception of the weapon's power in a select few situations. As a warp point ambush weapon hell yeah, it kicks butt. A crew insurrection on a ship, in a fleet of ships, armed with the AS is super-effective. Those two cases can make the AS seem a lot more powerful than it really is, but only because the combat starts at point blank range.

[ October 10, 2002, 15:23: Message edited by: Nodachi ]

Re: Probably a solution to AS reign
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes I am quoting my own post, yeash am I arrogant or what. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

One time I played the Terrans, and pretty much won. I controlled close to 90 % of the map, had built a couple of ringworlds, etc. Then I decided to switch sides. I selected the Cue Cappa, I thought I could intelligently use their psychic weapons, put them on sats, etc.

It didn't really work, the other AI's didn't like me. Just because we were all at war with a superpower is no reason to expect them to want me near them.

But if the AS was even weaker, it would have worked even less. I used all sorts of cheesy tricks that people want to fix: mines in planet orbit, tactical combat, training facilities.

Hey, did I describe my enemy - 2 ringworlds, resource from all planets in 90 % of the map?

Like Nodachi said, some weapons only seem to rule in certain situations. When you're far outclassed, some little benefits do come in handy.

[ October 10, 2002, 15:42: Message edited by: Arkcon ]