Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Version 2.5.1 of Proportions mod is now available from the Proportions web page.

Version 2.5.1:

* Corrected tech requirements for Smart Missile III.
* Halved size of solar sails.
* Halved effect, increased cost, and spread progression of solar collectors
to five levels, to make them less powerful at overcoming supply issues, and
to not eclipse solar sails.
* Thanks to Oleg, corrected a major oversight in Xiati AI research.
* Also responding to reports from Oleg, adjusted several AI's, particularly
in ship construction and carrier design.
* Made it possible to research the new armor technologies using the old armor
components from games started with earlier Versions of Proportions, to
allow players who had deployed these technologies in existing games to more
easily develop the technology they had already been using.
* Made Bull and Stagger Run formations symmetrical.
* Corrected a cosmetic typo.
* Added a few entries to "tips for effective play."

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

A problem with Jraenar' Light Attack Cruiser :
Majority weapon is APB (second choice DUC) but
the only weapon Jraenar research is meson bLaster ! As a result poor bastards fight with DUC 1 for whole game and ALC is their major ship class.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Thanks for your continued great work, PvK.

Just one question (to show I think about it *g*):

You have carrier tech, so a captured carrier will not give away fighter tech, which is great !

But your fighter bay components (neccessary on any carrier) still require FIGHTER tech, not carrier tech ...
Would that not still give away fighter tech ??

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It will, but it wiil give only ONE level of fighter tech ! In "normal" SE, scrapping carrier will give you TWO levels - you can magically get medium fighters analizing light carrier with fighter bays I..

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Yes, that's correct about analyzing carriers. The main idea was to make it so you wouldn't learn higher levels than the items you were analyzing. Gaining fighter tech from capturing and analyzing a fighter bay seems relatively reasonable (if I could, I'd make analysis only give maybe 25% of any tech level, rather than 100%, but that's not really the issue here). The main reason for making fighter bays be the same tech as fighters, rather than fighter carriers, is so you can build ersatz carriers using transport and warship hulls. I guess ideally, though, fighter bays would also be a separate (pretty cheap) tech area. Sounds like a good thing to adjust.

Oleg, thanks for the point about the Jraenar fire cruisers. Keeping up with the misbehaviour of all the AI's is more than I can keep up with, so all such reports are very helpful.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

"* Made it possible to research the new armor technologies using the old armor
components from games started with earlier Versions of Proportions, to
allow players who had deployed these technologies in existing games to more
easily develop the technology they had already been using."

How does this work? I'm looking at the text files and it's not making sense..

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Thanks Pvk.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Upgrade to Proportions 2.5 AI:

Pequeninos (it contains some new ship pictures):
1034123839.zip

Nostropholo (AI only):
1034123909.zip

Soul Hunters (Ai only):
1034124046.zip

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Say you have Armor Tech Level V in Proportions 2.4.2, and you want to retain the ability to build Stealth Armor II in Proportions 2.5.1. Before you upgrade to 2.4.2, make sure you have two examples of Stealth Armor II (or one of I and one of II) that you don't mind analyzing. If you don't want to deconstruct any existing ships, then build a couple of engineless escorts, for example. Then upgrade to 2.5.1. Then analyze them, and you'll get the new Stealth Armor tech area at level 2.

What I did in 2.5.1 was add the new tech areas as requirements for the old, now-inaccessible, special armor components. In 2.5, if you analyzed the old stuff, you wouldn't get anything, because the old components didn't have the new tech areas as requirements.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Say, since you have some AIs made, have you thought of starting a TurnBlitz - style PBW game of Proportions?

Blitzing turns should allow you to actually develop planets in a multiplayer setting...

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Hrmp. OK, my players will still be annoyed. Wonderful, but I think I can handle it.

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

so, when are you going to release a new 3.x Version that cleans alot of the old artifacts out of the files, is incompatable with older saves, and such?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes they will be.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

"Yes they will be."

Yes, but you haven't read what I'm going to do yet, have ya. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

No I have not.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Tech requirement changes should have been left to Version 3.0, not any Version 2.x. That would have avoided this problem entirely.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

PVK, Will you be making a "Patch" for the latest? or will we have to D/L the BIG PIC?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

I wasn't planning to make a patch Version, because the Last time I tried, people had issues playing with each other on PBW, and I was never sure what exactly was causing the problem.

If there are people waiting and hoping, I guess I will...

Ah! Actually, I think I'll probably do one that just skips all of the older graphics files, since text data compresses well and is smaller anyway, this will probably make a pretty small file, and shouldn't have any problems with the gameplay data.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it would've avoided your objection, but I didn't realize you'd object, before you did.

It seemed like the right thing to do at the time. All of the armor changes in 2.5 mean that all designs with specialized armor are going to be unbuildable and their specialized armor will need to be replaced during a retrofit, even without a tech area change. Also, with the new types of armor introduced in 2.5, researching Armor to tech level 4 gives a really large number of different types of armor, unless I break it out. That didn't seem right, and also seemed a bit distracting if you don't actually want some of them, but just want better armor. I also haven't heard any common situation described where splitting the tech convincingly disadvantages anyone in an existing game (it's irritated you, of course, and I'm sorry for that), especially if allowed a couple of turns to build cheap examples to self-analyze (in which case, it actually seems like an advantage).

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This sounds like a really good idea, SJ, and I had thought of it, but not all that much. But ya, with more thought, it does sound quite interesting.

What I had thought about more was using advanced saved games, perhaps from leaving the AI for a long period, or from taking existing games that were played for a long time, and using those.

Examples:

* Use the auto-turn generator to let the AI play say 100-500 turns, or whatever (probably with high or medium research costs, not low, unless you want a high-tech game), and then give empires out to players.

* Take someone's game where they got into a position where the AI's didn't seem like a challenge, and then give all the AI empires to players, and give the human empire to an AI.

But ya, turn blitz sounds cool and a good test of late game situations in Proportions, which I think would be quite interesting.

Another option, for those who like slower turn rates, but want to play in a more developed quadrant, would be to turn blitz for some weeks, and then slow down the turn rate to a normal rate after the AI has developed things.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it would've avoided your objection, but I didn't realize you'd object, before you did.

It seemed like the right thing to do at the time. All of the armor changes in 2.5 mean that all designs with specialized armor are going to be unbuildable and their specialized armor will need to be replaced during a retrofit, even without a tech area change. Also, with the new types of armor introduced in 2.5, researching Armor to tech level 4 gives a really large number of different types of armor, unless I break it out. That didn't seem right, and also seemed a bit distracting if you don't actually want some of them, but just want better armor. I also haven't heard any common situation described where splitting the tech convincingly disadvantages anyone in an existing game (it's irritated you, of course, and I'm sorry for that), especially if allowed a couple of turns to build cheap examples to self-analyze (in which case, it actually seems like an advantage).

PvK</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's because wars in PBW games of Proportions (where it would matter) are few and far between, due to the slowed down nature of the mod. I am probably one of the only people in a war in a PBE Proportions game (me, and the player that is my enemy). So, a common situation would be unlikely to arise.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Isn't the building of a couple of minimal examples a nearly negligible inconvenience, even in war time?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

No.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Why not?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Can't afford it.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Can't afford a cost of 1300 mins, 100 orgs, 200 rads, to get a tech level?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

**** Sergetti 2.51 AI is dead ****

AI_design_creation starts with two blank lines:
No designs are made, nothing will ever be constructed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

I made some improvements to few Proportions AI.
files are in races download forum:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000001

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Thanks Oleg!

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">just because i like to jump on bandwaggons, this would effect me too. im speedily losing a war in a porportions PBW game, and it isnt even against Fyron.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Wow it's been so long since i visited here (just after gold was released if i remember right), and so much has been achieved. Anyway, to my question, are the updates to the proportions mod posted in this thread, also updated to the mod on the proportions web site.

Tic

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

To me, (totally) loosing a war in Proportions is a pretty hard thing to do. I'm in turn 400 or something in a game aganist the AI and I'm still trying to take down a _neutral_ empire's homeworld. Apparently 35 ships with 8 point defense cannons V isn't enough to take down a planet with a bunch of missile weapon platforms. Maybe this new design with shield depleters will be more effective... Then again, I think the reason my fleet died was because they couldn't punch through the 4000 infantry on the planet. Oddly enough, the infantry were taking damage first, and providing a _lot_ of cushioning, considering their 100kt damage resistance for 1 kt of space.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

All Versions of Proportions are available here:

http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you're just trying to kill it, just use a tectonic bomb.

And you don't need to cut down the shields to drop troops for a capture.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AFAIK, the units take damage in the reverse order they have been constructed, ie Last build is killed first. It would make sense to build WP with weapons only first and then cover it with troops. Heroes cover cannons with their bodies and stuff...

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Well the most annoying part about infantry is the fact they're so darned cheap. My homeworld can church out nearly 200 per turn. 200 + 100kt damage resistance = 20,000 in "shielding" added per turn. I guess the bonus to blowing up the enemy's infantry first is even though I may loose 50 turns or so just producing the ships that can punch through that armor, the enemy planet won't have any defenses left when I send my own troops down.

[ October 24, 2002, 15:09: Message edited by: Mylon ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Unfortunately, planetary bombardment damage assessment has always been severely retarded. I believe the actual order, is more or less "the units with the lowest amount of structure per unit die first, and before any facility damage." (I could be more precise, but that's essentially it.)

So, if your WP's have more structure per unit than your troops, the troops get hit before the WP's.

If you build larger troops than infantry, though, and use shields and armor, they will probably have more structure than a WP, and so they won't get killed before the WP's, so an invasion attempt will encounter the troops.

I despise that bombardment damage allocation system BTW, and have complained about (as have Baron Munch. and others) it several times over the years - it's really lame.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">20K is not that much if you use anti-planetary weapons like napalm. One battleship can do 10K per turn or even more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AFAIK, the units take damage in the reverse order they have been constructed, ie Last build is killed first. It would make sense to build WP with weapons only first and then cover it with troops. Heroes cover cannons with their bodies and stuff...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it is first loaded, first hit. So if you don't move your units, the first built get hit first. Also, the first troops you load onto a transport are the ones that get dropped first, and so get hit first in ground combat.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It may not _seem_ like much, but when they have 200,000 worth of armor (only 10 turns worth) to punch through and have some 100 weapon platforms behind it... Thankfully the computer isn't smart enough to build more than 20 weapon platforms, but if they did... Ouch!

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">XiChung do. Almost impossible to take their HW. My races (pequen/nostrop/soulhunt..) are not very good in this regard. I'll have to work on constuction_vehicles file.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No Prob I went and D/L the full one have yet to play it (playing Derek's Mod right now) just as a FYI I do not play the basic game any longer there just is no Omph to it! .. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's only for ground combat with troops. For planetary bombardment, the order is based on structure per unit (weakest die first). See my post below.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's only for ground combat with troops. For planetary bombardment, the order is based on structure per unit (weakest die first). See my post below.

PvK</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunately, you are right. Has it always been like this, or was it changed in Gold?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

It's been this way since 1.49, at least.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.5.1 available
 

Damn. I have mislead so many people with that... oh well.