When to attack
 

Given the best set of circumstances, when is the best time to attack, and what are the most important factors to consider?

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm. Interesting question. So many variables. OK, I play this way -- after the AI opponent has declared war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 'Course, I've been preparing for this eventuality and intend to carry it to the bitter end - their destruction and my occupation of their territory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Helps to know what targets to hit. You can probe their defenses with a sacrifice ship. You can learn what weapons they field by observing what happens to satellites of yours they encounter.

[ October 11, 2002, 19:36: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: When to attack
 

Sun Tzu and The Prince both have direct applications in SE4. I tend to favor the latter over the former.

Re: When to attack
 

The Prince?

Re: When to attack
 

Fyron - both are references to older battle tactics and foreign relations stuff.

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which one said "don't attack until you can sweep 100 points of mines."

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Il Principe , The Prince, by Nicolo Machiavelli. From which we get the term machiavellian -- success by any means necessicary.

I've already quoted Sun Tsu once, let me see, something from The Prince ...

OK, well, everyone building masses of weapon platforms would do well to read Chapter XX - Are Fortresses, And Many Other Things To Which Princes Often Resort, Advantageous Or Hurtful?

For a quote how about...
"a man who wishes to act entirely up to his professions of virtue soon meets with what destroys him among so much that is evil. "

"Hence it is necessary for a prince wishing to hold his own to know how to do wrong, and to make use of it or not according to necessity. "

{Thank you Project Gutenberg, I gave my peguin copy away}

[ October 11, 2002, 00:21: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: When to attack
 

Ok... that is what I was thinking The Prince was.

Re: When to attack
 

Does someone have a link to full translation of Sun Tzu's book and Prince, too? I have one Sun Tzu's translation but its rather puny...

Re: When to attack
 

I used to have a link to Sun Tsu's book. I think I got that link from the old EZ Board Hypercomm Central.

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, for The Prince, I have this link to project Gutenberg

I used to have one with side-by-side english and italian. But I lost that link. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If anyone finds one please pass it along.

A good, complete, Online Version of Art of War would be nice. I'll do fine without a Chinese Version. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which one said "don't attack until you can sweep 100 points of mines."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Neither, Machiavelli said your ships should already be at the enemys resupply depot before you broke your military alliance.

Sun-tzu said to activate the warp point opener -- into a non-colonized system in enemy territory behind the lines.

Look it up, it's in there, just translated poorly.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ October 11, 2002, 14:17: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: When to attack
 

Hmmm, this is getting a little far a field.

I guess what I was driving is which is better an early, middle or late game attack. Why, do people think they need a certain tech item, an economy of X size, a fleet of Y size, etc.

This is in particular reference to human players.

Re: When to attack
 

This may not directly answer you question, but experienced players are on target when they apply real-world principles to SEIV.

From my military training, I find these invaluable:

PRINCIPLES OR WAR
Objective
Direct military operations toward a defined and attainable objective that contributes to strategic, operational, or tactical aims.
Offensive
Dictates that we act rather than react and dictate the time, place, purpose, scope, intensity, and pace of operations. The initiative must be seized, retained, and fully exploited.
Mass
Concentrate combat power at the decisive time and place.
Economy of Force
Create usable mass by using minimum combat power on secondary objectives. Make the fullest use of forces available
Maneuver
Place the enemy in a position of disadvantage through flexible application of combat power.
Unity of Command
Ensure unity of effort for every objective under one responsible commander.
Security
Protect friendly forces and their operations from enemy actions, which could provide the enemy with unexpected advantage.
Surprise
Strike the enemy at a time or place or in a manner for which he is unprepared.
Simplicity
Avoid unnecessary complexity in preparing, planning, and conducting military operations.

Now as for specific applications of these principles... that may be a few more Posts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, OK,

Economy - try to figure out what trade you lose by attacking the enemy, and how that affects your maintenance. How many ships will you lose, what planets you're likely to capture, that sort of thing. You may colonize planets after you glass them, so you will spend resources building facilities and units, and population bonus will initially be small.

Tech- A very general rule of thumb is to not be more than 1 ship hull size behind an opponent. Yes Light cruisers can hold their own against battleships maybe. But frigates vs dreadnoughts? That might not work well. Which particular weapons? Too tough to call.

Fleet size - once you've hit a planet, if you intend to stay, see what ships you'd like to post at warp points and have blockade other planets. Expect a large planet to be able to bring up a couple of small ships or several fighters in a few turns. Be ready to handle them.

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This translates as: Don't switch the ministers on.

Something else that isn't being considered is whether you're playing to win or playing for fun. A lot of ppl will roleplay their empires, attacking to early or too late or not at all according to how aggressive their race is.

[ October 11, 2002, 16:51: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: When to attack
 

One critical aspect not clearly addressed in the PRINCIPLES OF WAR is the political aspect.

Before taking any decisive action, ensure you have the buy-in from as many allies as possible. Control the political spin. If not, your direction and concentration of forces may result in exposing yourself to a current "ally," who may find that an attack against you now looks appealing. Also, players may view you as a warmonger and potential threat and act to defend the weaker player.

It is Very important to control politics when playing with humans. In the blink of an eye, all of your advantages may become moot when all of the sudden, you are faced with a 2-front war that you are not prepared to manage.

Re: When to attack
 

An early attack is good only if the enemy doesn't have mines. Frying a homeworld with a single planety napalm ship is very cost effective. Early attacks are waste of time if the enemy has already built some defences.

A middle game attack is more difficult. You have to have mine sweepers so if you fail more is lost than in an early attack.

The right time to attack is different in every game. If you have the most powerful ships then any time is good. If you think that you will lose a ship to ship combat, attack when the enemy ships are away from their planets. The best advice that I can give is to attack when enemy has pants down and run away really fast.

Re: When to attack
 

*I have the English and Korean Versions of Art of war, if anybody is interested.*

you attack when you believe that:

Your enemy is primitive than you
Your enemy is only focusing one system at a time
You have a fully functional supply/support line

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mines do stall an early game war. An early war will delay your expansion. But maybe you shouldn't advance too far in a PBW game. You don't want your race or colonies captured.
An early war can also give some advantages. Like a captured race that breathes a different atmosphere. Likewise taking another colonizing tech by ship capture or surrender will be a big advantage. If your happeness type is bloodthirsty: a phony, drawn out, but victorious war can make your population jubilant and bonus your production.

Re: When to attack
 

Objective

What is it that you hope to accomplish with your attack?

Is it for the sheer fun of your bloodthirsty race? If not, it's best to have a strategy behind it.

Pre-emptive Attack: Attacking with the purpose of eliminating a threat. An enemy is massing troops at your border, and you have the ability to strike with an advantage with a high probability of winning. Outcome of the battle is reducting enemy's ability to wage war. See Offensive.

Attack with the purpose of gaining and HOLDING ground. If you overextend and do not establish adaquate security, your new gains are vulnerable. If this is your purpose, go big or stay home. See Mass.

Attack to distract / divert enemy forces away from a primary target. See Economy of Force.

Attack to disrupt the enemy's economy and reduce his ability to wage war. Burn planets, cause riots, reduce his production and maintenance capabilities. Important!!!

Defensive Attack: Counterattack to stop an enemy threat. In this case, delay as much as possible until you can compile a fleet that will win or severly damage the attacking force. Until then, accept planet losses while you form up at a point to your advantage. Don't waste your forces by sending them in piecemeal. Waiting one more turn for a few critical ships to join your counterattack may make the difference.

Attack when the advantage is yours. This means when your economy can support it, and when you have better forces.

Attack rather than defend. You must prepare for war from turn 1, and the eventuality that you will be at war with everyone (unless your game has different parameters). This means that you will have the dirty job of backstabbing many people. But don't feel bad about it. They were eventually going to do it to you. The way SEIV is built, the advantage always goes to the attacker (if he/she is a good player). If you are attacked by a player while you are building your economy and expanding, your attacker is smart. You should do the same, and take advantage of opportunity. See Surprise.

Timing
Early game wars just stink. Avoid them whenever possible. They stunt your economic growth and expansion.

Mid-game wars are tolerable with the conditions noted above. But the absolute best position to be in is to not be at war while you are expanding/growing. When your planets/systems are developed, your economy is strong (minus the resource loss from treaties you will break). Attack when there is no where else to expand but at the expense of the enemy.

Late game war is the prime place to be. This means you have built up and avioded conflict through successful political action, while letting the other players bash themselves to bits as much as possible. You have underplayed your true hand (Eastern philosophy) and now you are ready to reveal and execute it. At this point you have a solid change for winning the game.

Re: When to attack
 

holding ground should not always be your goal. the Russian army (until the end of WWII) held the doctrine that anywhere they marched became Russian soil. Thus, they fought to the man and bullet defending their positions. This wasnt always a good thing.

If you are fighting to destroy an enemy, and cripple their ability to make war - rather than to gain territory and bolster your industrial base - then you may not need to wory about holding ground. The defender must hold ground, but you can raid systems, destroy colonies, then pull out. sometimes you cant afford to hold worlds, but you can afford to continue an offensive untill you can recolonize them later.

Other times, holding teritory is crucial, because you need their production, or their resupply depots, or need them to slow down a counter attack.

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very true. I'm playing a TDM Modpack game. I'm the Ukra-Tal, and the Aquilaeians took an instant dislike to me. Same atmosphere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I've got my core systems fortified, and I raided their territory, conquering two systems and then losing them again, twice. At the same time I've gained, lost and now regained two fringe systems. And so it goes.

They are a dying race. I will let them be. I must prepare for the coming storm. The Vikings refuse all treatys, and the Cue Cappa and Albion have dreadnoughts everywhere. I don't have the mineral resources for master computer ships. Yet.

[ October 12, 2002, 00:12: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very true. In the case where you need to hold territory, I stress the importance of adaquately defending your new gains. This may mean pushing your defensive line forward... and not a Marginot line that is static but a mobile defense that operates under the tenant of Mobility. You can't defend everything... but key points. And what you acquire is your new key point.

Re: When to attack
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Try this one: Sun Tzu's Art of War
This translation is much more fluid than most others I saw on the internet.