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How do mines work
A quick question about the functioning of mines: Do they...
(1) magically arrange themselves into a linear structure that are unerringly rammed, one-by-one, by the lead ship of a fleet, until the mines run out or the ship is destroyed; thereafter being hit one-by-one by the second ship in line, and so forth until either the mines or ships are depleted; or (2) magically separate themselves into Groups such that if there are X mines and Y ships that X/Y mines impact each ship simultaneously; or (3) something else? |
Re: How do mines work
The image I formed in my mind was that they homed in on some "spacedock signal" that all large ships need to recognize each other in space so accidents didn't happen when docked. No one ever turns this signal off for reasons I can't explain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The mines home in, and if the signal doesn't inclue the "friendly" code, they arm and explode. Armor on ships is destroyed first, then components, one ship at a time. It never occurs to anyone to turn on the shields. Cloaking devices don't help for other dubious reasons.
There's no tactics to assign, no planning. The components are only warheads. Yes it's not very realistic. But it's simply a kludged method to provide a measure of defence easily. There are many comments on this subject. Maybe SE5 will be different. [ October 11, 2002, 18:21: Message edited by: Arkcon ] |
Re: How do mines work
Specifically the answer to your question would be 3. The don't all hit one ships at a time (1), or split up and evenly hit each ship in the fleet (2). What they do is more or less random. Each mine will target a ship in the fleet at random and hit it. Some ships will get more than there share of hits and be destroyed, If the fleet is big enough and the minefield is small enough some ships could actually make it through undamaged while others will be totally destroyed.
That part is actually pretty realistic. The magic comes in in that they never miss, are never duds, and the entire minefield will expend itself agains the fleet, unless it runs out of targets first. Geoschmo |
Re: How do mines work
The first thing that happens is that each minesweeping component in your fleet or ship sweeps the applicable number of mines - 100% accurate. If you can sweep = or > the number of mines, you will receive no damage. Since the max number of mines in a sector is 100, if your ship/fleet can sweep 100 mines, it is immune to mines. As far as minesweeping components go, each can sweep the number of mines (regardless of the size of the mine) equal to their level. i.e. Minesweeper III can sweep 3 mines. So build minesweeper ships with as many of the highest level sweepers you can up to being able to sweep 100 mines.
Next the mines damage the ships. Damage is applied to ships quasi-randomly to ships in fleets. There has been some experimentation with this in other Posts. The mines start attacking ships until all ships are destroyed or all mines are destroyed. More & bigger warheads on a mine do more damage obviously. If all the ships are destroyed, the sector is marked automatically as a minefield. Ships won't automatically go thru that minefield, but can be ordered to manually. Once all the mines are swept, the minefield marker is removed. The max number of mines per sector can be changed in settings.txt. Slick |
Re: How do mines work
Whoops, sorry, Geo, you posted while was typing.
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Re: How do mines work
That's right, shields do you no good when it comes to mines or storms.
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The other way is to mod the game and reset the mine limit, but this of course applies to all players. |
Re: How do mines work
Maybe the shields are attracted by Energy or Gravity? We haven't the slightest Idea. I think it's because we don't pay our researchers enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: How do mines work
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Geoschmo |
Re: How do mines work
Jimbob:
The extra-mines trick you mentioned has been fixed with the latest patch don't count on it for much longer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Mine warheads can also be given the fancier damage types. Null space, engines-only, weapons only, and shield generators only types of damage all work the way you'd expect. Armor-skipping is essentially the same as null space, since shields are not a factor vs mines. Also, Shields-only warheads are useless, since shields are not used. |
Re: How do mines work
Not only that... but for the low low cost of 50000 research points (mid-tech game setting) you get a unit that is absolutely undetectable to your enemies. Forever!
Explain that with a creative example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: How do mines work
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[ October 11, 2002, 19:48: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Detecting mines is not even in the scope of this game with even the highest scanning technology. On what basis? I mean, a race has to research and develop other cloaking techs, but they get this magic black mine paint that is super-undetectable. Why don't they just paint their ships with it? Just seems a bit inconsistant. |
Re: How do mines work
IA is used to keep mines in colony cargo... That's completely useless, isn't it ?
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Re: How do mines work
Yes. They have to be launched to do anything. Same with sats and fighters (though fighters will auto-launch)
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Re: How do mines work
Units are automatically cloaked with the best claoking level of any components they carry, btw. So you could mod mines to be less 'invisible' and require components to be harder to detect. I've given them cloak level 2 just because they are so small and difficult to see on that basis. For better cloaking you need to use 'mine casing' akin to stealth armor. But even the best mine cloaking can be over-come with higher level sensors in my games.
Now if we can just get some action on the other problems discussed here: omnipresence of all mines in the sector at any given point, infallible sensors, infallible hit ratio. [ October 11, 2002, 21:12: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: How do mines work
How do mines work? pretty simple. It is all simple and realistic in my opinion.
Mines are tiny. Dont look on the 5kT weight, the mines could be as big as football ball. it doesnt matter realy, but their size is completely indetectable for any and all ship scanners. Though you can mod them to be detectable. How do they work? They are randmly distributed between the sector they occupy. Once ships enter they swarm towards the ship and attach themselves to the ship or just flight by, using magnetic detection component included in their special warhead. Once all mines *stop*(come near a ship or stay in place) they explode. Explosion of single mine triggers a magnetic field which causes mines to attack every remaining ships if aviable. if none left, they just sit where they are. Mine sweeper simply has specialized energy rays that intercept the mines as they come and destroys them, plus all the tiny meteorites that hit so hard on your personal quarters in the ship when you are asleep.... |
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I know I'm one of the worst for expecting "realism" in this game but then someone puts me in my place with a "futuristic" explanation like this. Taera's explanation may be dead wrong, but it is a good as any other... and works for me... Now if we could just come up with a rationalization of why we can only squeeze 100 mines into a sector.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: How do mines work
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If you add more, they will just let the minefield decay until it is back down to regulation size, as well as charge for their time waiting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: How do mines work
"Now if we could just come up with a rationalization of why we can only squeeze 100 mines into a sector...."
It gets too dense, and they start triggering each other. Given that each 'mine' in SE4 is 10-20kt, it's likely a field of mines unto itself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Phoenix-D |
Re: How do mines work
Phoenix or SJ, Phoenix or SJ. Who's right? Oh, decisions, decisions... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: How do mines work
To come up with an explanation of the mines - and the "they don't hit shields" rule - I think of the personal shields in Dune - in that they only stop fast-moving targets from passing. A mine could float right through it undetected and unaffected by shields, since it would be moving at less-than-projectile speeds.
works enough for me. Since enough people seem to not like the "shields have no effect" rules, maybe an update to the game could be something like "if a mine detonates on a ship with shields, there is an x% chance of the shield absorbing the blow first". Perhaps each level of shield increases the odds - Shield 1 at 10%, Shield II at 20%, etc. Dunno...I'm just making stuff up. [ October 12, 2002, 22:00: Message edited by: ckotchey ] |
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Re: How do mines work
I'd love to see a total re-work on mines. As to what this would entail... more randomness, probability that sweeping won't work, probability that mines will "miss" a valid target, etc... basically everything everyone has already stated. However, I like the fact that shields don't work against mines. Maybe like in STrek you just can't keep shields up for hours on end - maybe they burn out or something. Anyway, it gives us an excuse to use armour.
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Re: How do mines work
umm Grandpa, what is *so* wrong with my idea?
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Re: How do mines work
Jimbob
err... or perhaps a, rope a dope-pope? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif And I still like the idea! [ October 13, 2002, 08:15: Message edited by: mlmbd ] |
Re: How do mines work
I'd like a Degaussing option.
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Re: How do mines work
TerranC: interesting, but mine sweepers dont work this way - they just blow the mines off. In limited capacity, too.
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P.S. Check your private Messages. Kim |
Re: How do mines work
WWII ships also deployed a mine sweeper componant that looked like a rake or a cattle catcher on a old time locamotive.
The mines would hit rake and blow a portion of it off. Eventually it would be pulled up and more steel beams would get welded on. |
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Just like it was done back in the old times. |
Re: How do mines work
How about lower level mines can be detected by high level scanners? then you need to get higher level mines (better cloak) and or better scanners to find the enemy ones?
just a totally out of context thought. |
Re: How do mines work
Yeah, it is an interesting idea. If you had a degaussing option or a component for ALL ships, then you could make your way through the mine Field(s), without a mine sweeper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
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Re: How do mines work
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And mines would have been useless then and now. Put in a degaussing component: And let it uses lots of supplies And still allow for a random chance of mines hitting the ship. Also, Create detonators: Megnetic = Can be deflected by degauss but still could hit Kinetic = Degaussing is ineffective and a mine sweeper will have to sweep the mines |
Re: How do mines work
this'll have to wait till SEV but its a good idea, mail it to MM
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Re: How do mines work
Oh, and another thing; since Magnetic mines of WW2 never hit the ships, rather, it bLasted itself and the shrapnels hit the ship, I wonder if there can be mines that don't destruct, yet, when a ship comes into range, send out a pulse that destroys the ships. The mine would de-energize there, and a ship would come, reenergize it and arm it once more.
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Re: How do mines work
TerranC, I wouldn't want to unbalance the game, or make a complete line of tech obsolete.
The detonators(Megnetic\Kinetic), good idea. Instead of using a huge amount of supplies, might be a problem with the quantum reactor. How about: A certian number of uses per component. Limited number of the component. Use it once and then it is depleted. And still allow for a random chance of mines hitting the ship. What do you think of something like that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif |
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