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Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
Have been reviewing some AI combats (I usually play tactical) when I noticed that the AI moves ships towards missiles or fighters even though the ships have Maximum Weapons Range orders and their main weapons are currently reloading. Is there a way to stop this? (ie have the ships move only according to their main weapons state/withdraw while their main weapons are reloading).
This bug significantly degrades those races equipped with longer range weapons as they end up closing to Point Defence range instead. Sounds like a worthy patch item..... |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
It's just that the "Target seekers targeted on..." toggle orders in ship strategies are often misunderstood. To get what you want, set these to NO. Doing this does NOT stop the ship from firing PD at seekers (regardless of whether they are targetted on the ship in question, or not).
If you set these to YES, then the ship will actually maneuver itself to hunt and destroy enemy seekers. So, most often you want to set these to NO with strategies that are designed to avoid contact, or to stand off at long range. PvK |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
My maximum weapons range strategy consists of maximum weapons range for the primary AND secondary movement strategy.
Using this strategy my missile ships never move close. It works fine for my missile ships. One drawback is that the missiles are fired always at maximum range, so it becomes pretty hard to hit enemy ships with the Don't Get Hurt-strategy because they continously move out of range. Another one is the fact that enemy point defence becomes more powerful they get more shots. Anyway, since I use this this strategy my losses of attack ships has been decreased drastically. |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
Hi PvK
just read your answer. Never thought of that one. The strategy I described works despite of having set the toggle for targeting seekers to "YES" for all my ships. Seekers get a very high number in the priority list, though. That would explain why my ships don't go after them because there are always targets with higher priorities. One more thing to be checked.... [ November 18, 2002, 17:48: Message edited by: Rexxx ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
The other option is to create PDC ships with one direct fire weapon of equal range as the PDC. You will need armor on this ship with as much ECM as you can. A light crusier with ECM III, 4 Statndard Armor and one each of Stealth and Scattering armor works well. The advantage of these ships is it frees up space on your larger ships so you can mount heavy weapons. I usualy build mine by Retrofitting LCs when i GET BCs.
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Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
@PvK
Which file has the toggle that you mentioned? @Rexxx, I have ships set with Maximum Weapons Range as primary and secondary movement orders but am still finding the ships to be seeker hunting anyway (Capital Ship Missiles were the only offensive weapon). Check out the following extract from the Maximum Weapons Range strategy: Name := Maximum Weapons Range Primary Movement Strategy := Maximum Weapons Range Secondary Movement Strategy := Maximum Weapons Range Targeting Priority 1 := Has Weapons Targeting Priority 2 := Nearest Targeting Priority 3 := Most Damaged Targeting Priority 4 := Weakest Use Type Priority First := True Type Priority Planets := 6 Type Priority Fighters := 3 Type Priority Seekers(On Us) := 0 Type Priority Seekers(On Others) := 0 Type Priority Mines := 12 Type Priority Carriers := 11 Type Priority Colony Ships := 10 Type Priority Transports := 9 Type Priority Bases(No Weapons) := 5 Type Priority Ships(No Weapons) := 8 Type Priority Bases := 4 Type Priority Ships := 1 Type Priority Satellites := 7 Type Priority Drones := 2 Dont Fire On Planets := False Dont Fire On Fighters := False Dont Fire On Seekers(On Us) := True Dont Fire On Seekers(On Others) := True Dont Fire On Mines := False Dont Fire On Carriers := False Dont Fire On Colony Ships := False Dont Fire On Transports := False Dont Fire On Bases(No Weapons) := False Dont Fire On Ships(No Weapons) := False Dont Fire On Bases := False Dont Fire On Ships := False Dont Fire On Satellites := False Dont Fire On Drones := True Fighters Launch Group Amount := 10 Break Formation Planets := True Break Formation Fighters := True Break Formation Mines := False Break Formation Carriers := True Break Formation Colony Ships := True Break Formation Transports := True Break Formation Bases(No Weapons) := False Break Formation Ships(No Weapons) := False Break Formation Bases := False Break Formation Ships := False Break Formation Satellites := True Break Formation Drones := True Note: the ships did actually target ships as the highest priority (the battle I ran included a planet, satellites, bases and a colony ship) but rapidly ended up chasing seekers as well. |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
"Dont Fire On Seekers(On Us) := True
Dont Fire On Seekers(On Others) := True" That's the toggle PvK was refering to. Phoenix-D |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
Hmmm,
I did try that without any real change in the AI's tactics (as evidenced by the extract). GE |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
A possible thought I had an an interim fix to the problem was to redesign the point defence component with a much longer range but have the damage at long range as only 1pt.
eg: Name := Point - Defense Cannons IV Description := Small mobile cannons on turrets which are used to target and destroy incoming fighters and seekers. Pic Num := 66 Tonnage Space Taken := 20 Tonnage Structure := 20 Cost Minerals := 200 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 0 Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone Supply Amount Used := 0 Restrictions := None General Group := Weapons Family := 2005 Roman Numeral := 4 Custom Group := 0 Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Point-Defense Weapons Tech Level Req 1 := 4 Number of Abilities := 1 Ability 1 Type := Point-Defense Ability 1 Descr := Ability 1 Val 1 := 0 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Weapon Type := Point-Defense Weapon Target := Ftr\Sat\Seekers\Drone Weapon Damage At Rng := 55 55 55 55 55 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Weapon Damage Type := Normal Weapon Reload Rate := 1 Weapon Display Type := Torp Weapon Display := 21 Weapon Modifier := 70 Weapon Sound := pointdef.wav Weapon Family := 6 Will let you know how my play test goes.... |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
The mod I suggested works guys (I just love the flexibility of this game!). Just finished running a couple of battles and the AI operated as I would have done!
The PD do not seem to harm seekers at long range and the ships maintain long range (and dance around a bit too). Might have to see if Malfador can include this in the next patch..... Will do a few more play tests but I'm already starting to think that I might be able to let the AI run my forces in Strategic battle rather than playing Tactical all the time. [ November 18, 2002, 23:38: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
The only downside to the PD mod is that when the enemy is down to just satellites, ships armed only with missiles end up engaging the satellites with their PD at range 19 where they do minimal damage (I'm kind of prepared to accept the tradeoff at this stage).
The problem does go away once your ships are equipped with another satellite targetting weapon (and it is the fleet leader). [ November 19, 2002, 00:25: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
"A possible thought I had an an interim fix to the problem was to redesign the point defence component with a much longer range but have the damage at long range as only 1pt."
Ouch. Remember that PD fires automaticly at *max* range. If you are, say, attacked by fighters, they'll fire at the 1 range and the fighters will close undamged to your ships. Missiles too, if the missile is launched at the right time. Phoenix-D |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
@Phoenix-D
I take your point about PD opening up just before they can do normal damage but that can be managed somewhat by say phasing in the damage a little earlier: Name := Point - Defense Cannons II Description := Small mobile cannons on turrets which are used to target and destroy incoming fighters and seekers. Pic Num := 66 Tonnage Space Taken := 20 Tonnage Structure := 20 Cost Minerals := 100 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 0 Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone Supply Amount Used := 0 Restrictions := None General Group := Weapons Family := 2005 Roman Numeral := 2 Custom Group := 0 Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Point-Defense Weapons Tech Level Req 1 := 2 Number of Abilities := 1 Ability 1 Type := Point-Defense Ability 1 Descr := Ability 1 Val 1 := 0 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Weapon Type := Point-Defense Weapon Target := Ftr\Sat\Seekers\Drone Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 35 35 35 25 15 15 15 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Weapon Damage Type := Normal Weapon Reload Rate := 1 Weapon Display Type := Torp Weapon Display := 21 Weapon Modifier := 70 Weapon Sound := pointdef.wav Weapon Family := 6 On balance it should even itself out and the benefit of not having ships closing all the time is much greater. Currently ships fly towards the missiles and fighters rather than attempting to hold off. [ November 19, 2002, 01:54: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
God Emperor:
In my maximum weapon range strategy I have Use Type Priority First := False the priority numbers for seekers are 13 and 14. all "don't fire on" toggles are set to "False". Did some tests yesterday including PvK's suggestion. Can confirm your statement, found no difference between the toggles on and off. The ships didn't go for missiles in both cases, most of the time they tried to stay as far as possible from their opponents. Well, most of the time. In some turns - during reload - they didn't move at all or only one or two sectors away from the enemy (5 were possible). Will test a strategy consisting of maximum range and don't get hurt, maybe the results become clearer. [ November 19, 2002, 08:25: Message edited by: Rexxx ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
SJ,
Just two things: 1) Does the 0 damage setting prevent triggering of PD? (havent tried it myself yet), 2) My proposal to phase in damage was intended to try and average out the effects of ships at different distances and fighters/seekers of differing speeds. I take your point about the possibility of ships not protecting themselves from hits but as an arm chair admiral, I'm not so much concerned about individual ships but more with the performance of the fleet as a whole. If a ship sacrifices itself for another, so be it. My only concern is with regard to the "to hit" chances at the longer distances. Anyway, I'm about to start a new game with the PD mod in effect and will provide feedback on what effect it has on the "strength" of point defence (the battles I have witnessed so far have unfolded ok but I want to witness one with more units of multiple types in it). Regards, GE [ November 19, 2002, 13:22: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
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Having a zero-damage at range X prevents the weapon from firing. You can mod weapons that have a minimum range this way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
SJ,
But on other occaisions the ship would be firing and scoring (reduced) damage when it would not currently be able to do so. Anyway, the 0 damage option is the best way ahead and I'll road test it instead. Thanks for the info. Will get back with the results. Regards, GE |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
What happens if you have on the ship: 1 long range direct fire weapon that fires every turn?
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Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
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Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 Now the only problem occurs in fleet battles, where you have many missiles at widely varying ranges from your ship. One of the missiles going for your distant wingman might trigger your PD just before the missiles locked on you hit. |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
SJ,
Your idea regarding the use of 0 damage in the intervening ranges does work. I have watched several large battles and the AI ships will standoff whilst firing, whilst the PD does only fire when it can do damage. Can you let Aaron, Richard etc know to include the alteration in the next patch - it vastly improves the AI's performance in combat (check it out for yourself). I think I'll even run my next game using strategic rather than tactical combat mode for the first time in over 18 months! Regards, GE |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
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Geoschmo EDIT: On second thought, changes to the strategies file might work, because that might get carried over into your .emp file when you load it. Not sure abou tthat one. Would need to test it. But the PDC damage change would definetly require a mod. [ November 20, 2002, 14:14: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
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After lots of tests there is only one conclusion: Take every word for granted. Setting the toggles "Don't fire on Seekers" (On Us) and "Don't fire on Seekers" (On Others) = True makes the difference. I ran the tests with missile ships (CSM reload time set to 3, 5 and 10) and a strategy you see below. The ships fired their missiles at maximum range and EVERYTIME headed for the next corner during reload time and came back when the missiles were ready to fire again. None of them was hunting enemy seekers. Name := Hit and Run Primary Movement Strategy := Maximum Weapons Range Secondary Movement Strategy := Don't Get Hurt Targeting Priority 1 := Nearest Targeting Priority 2 := Has Weapons Targeting Priority 3 := Strongest Targeting Priority 4 := Largest Use Type Priority First := False Type Priority Planets := 8 Type Priority Fighters := 11 Type Priority Seekers(On Us) := 12 Type Priority Seekers(On Others) := 13 Type Priority Mines := 14 Type Priority Carriers := 3 Type Priority Colony Ships := 4 Type Priority Transports := 5 Type Priority Bases(No Weapons) := 6 Type Priority Ships(No Weapons) := 7 Type Priority Bases := 2 Type Priority Ships := 1 Type Priority Satellites := 9 Type Priority Drones := 10 Dont Fire On Planets := False Dont Fire On Fighters := False Dont Fire On Seekers(On Us) := True Dont Fire On Seekers(On Others) := True Dont Fire On Mines := False Dont Fire On Carriers := False Dont Fire On Colony Ships := False Dont Fire On Transports := False Dont Fire On Bases(No Weapons) := False Dont Fire On Ships(No Weapons) := False Dont Fire On Bases := False Dont Fire On Ships := False Dont Fire On Satellites := False Dont Fire On Drones := False Fighters Launch Group Amount := 20 Break Formation Planets := True Break Formation Fighters := True Break Formation Mines := True Break Formation Carriers := True Break Formation Colony Ships := True Break Formation Transports := True Break Formation Bases(No Weapons) := True Break Formation Ships(No Weapons) := True Break Formation Bases := True Break Formation Ships := True Break Formation Satellites := True Break Formation Drones := True I did the same test with the toggles set to "False". After firing their missiles the ships moved away from the enemy but only some of them headed straight for the next corner. The rest (which are closest to the enemy) began moving - I would say - erratically, never using the full amount of movement points, zigzag courses. One combat turn later they actually began hunting enemy seekers. Thanks PvK, as I said before I never would have thought of that one. |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
"Actually I am pretty sure what Pvk was refering to was the toggles within the strategies setup screen in the game itself."
Probably. But the toggles I posted do the same thing, which was why I noted God Emperor already had them in his file. Phoenix-D |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
I was referring to both, but specifically the in-game ones. They both have the same effect, but the files apply to the AI and default strategies for humans, while the in-game ones are they way the player can tweak their own.
At any rate, yes, I think they solve the problem described. Adding the 1 damage to PD at long range isn't necessary, and would sometimes have the side effect, in battles that use a lot of the tactical map, anyway (rare, but they can occur) where a PD weapon would use opportunity fire on an enemy on the far side of the map, with a 99% chance to miss, or do 1 damage if it hit. Meanwhile, if there are unit threats to the ship itself, it's PD would've been wasted. PvK |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
Just for clarification though Pvk (or anyone who knows) this will not prevent your PDC from firing on seekers that get into range on there own right? It will only prevent seeker hunting, or milling about correct? I am asking, cause I just want to be sure.
Geoschmo |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
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[ November 21, 2002, 20:58: Message edited by: Rexxx ] |
Re: Point Defence and Maximum Weapons Range orders
Just as a note,
I just went into the Empire Status/Strategies menu for one of my races that I have set an AI_Strategies file for, and the settings do both match. Hence, my earlier play tests when I kept changing the AI_stategies.txt settings (including the seekers=True modification which I posted earlier) should have made a difference, except..... I'm now just wondering whether I shut the game down and reloaded the turn, or whether I just simply reloaded the turn. It does make a difference of course as some files are only read during the game startup whilst others seem to be read when called upon. I have just have completed a number of tests that confirm that strategies settings changes dont take effect unless the game is shut down and reloaded. Simply reloading the turn is not enough (I know this also to be true for AI_Research files as well). |
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