You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

As I was playing SE4, I noticed that I was able to refit one of my spaceyard light cruisers into a warship because they cost about the same amount. "This doesn't make sense," I thought. "Shouldn't the decision of whether or not you can refit a ship be based on the similarity in the designs, not on the cost? It's silly to be able to refit a PPB1 ship to a spaceyard ship but not to a PPB5 ship!" So here's an idea: Instead of (or perhaps in addition to, if the cost limitation is loosened) a cost limitation on refits, why not throw in a limitation on similarities in design? This wouldn't be too hard to implement - just take each component in the new design, search for a corresponding component with the same family in the old design, and if more than X percent of the new components don't have matching old components then the designs are compatible.

Of course, there could be a few problems with this... you could refit from class A to class B and be unable to refit back, so maybe it should check both ways... the component family limitation is extremely easy to overcome with a retroseries - if the limitation is 25% new (not upgraded) components, only 4 refits are needed to get a brand new ship.

Comments?

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

As I was playing SE4, I noticed that I was able to refit one of my spaceyard light cruisers into a warship because they cost about the same amount. "This doesn't make sense,"

Makes perfect sense to me; just gut out the guns, half of the hull and add a space yard on it.

"I thought. "Shouldn't the decision of whether or not you can refit a ship be based on the similarity in the designs, not on the cost?

A gunship is retrofitted to a missle corvette. A freighter is retrofitted to a carrier. A tug boat could be turned into a torpedo boat. It happens in the real world, and just because it's in space, it should make all the difference?

Also, the costs do prohibit some otherwise crazy retrofits; a gunship can't be a star destroyer in one turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It's silly to be able to refit a PPB1 ship to a spaceyard ship but not to a PPB5 ship!"

I agree on that, but I think about this way:

As the engineer comes into the soon to be retrofitted ship, he finds 2 antiquadated mk1 PPB. As he sees inside, he finds just a beam chamber and firing mechanism. He remarks that how did those guys fight the abbidons without the safety mechanisms, range multypliers, damage enhancers, jacketed firing tubes, and other systems that make the present day mk5 PPB.

So here's an idea: Instead of (or perhaps in addition to, if the cost limitation is loosened) a cost limitation on refits, why not throw in a limitation on similarities in design?

I think that is silier, since many ships were changed into something else completely when they were launched since construction. A ship will forever remain a warship just because it has a gun? Which you can cut out with a torch?

This wouldn't be too hard to implement - just take each component in the new design, search for a corresponding component with the same family in the old design, and if more than X percent of the new components don't have matching old components then the designs are compatible.

SJ would know something about that.

Of course, there could be a few problems with this... you could refit from class A to class B and be unable to refit back,

I'd rather have a cost limitation because of that reason.

so maybe it should check both ways... the component family limitation is extremely easy to overcome with a retroseries - if the limitation is 25% new (not upgraded) components, only 4 refits are needed to get a brand new ship.

not everybody is willing to build a starbase filled with repair bays. and those 4 refits could mean waiting longer rather than choosing that ship to be built. Also, while refit, you have to pay maintenance.

just my 2 cents.

[ November 21, 2002, 21:23: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

Pesonally the 50% retrofit rule really bugs me. (especially in simultaneous play when you don't find out it is over 50% till next turn) I think it should be possible to retrofit any ship as long as the hull type is the same. OF course the game would have to be modified so you could not just build an empty hull and retrofit it the next turn. It should be that if you did do that there would be no cost or time savings to building the whole ship from the start.

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

Just for your info, you can't retrofit from a design without a SY to a design with one. That hurt my plans in a recent PBW turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

Yes. Except the reverse- which is what he was trying to do- does work. Painfully, since I was playing a game, missed a turn, and the AI retrofitted half my construction bases in repair bases http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

Yep, I retrofitted my BSYs to repair bases myself, then found out the hard way when I wanted to change them back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif School of Experience again.

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

Maybe the 50% retrofit rule should be applied individually to each of minerals, organics, and radioactives?

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Retrofit costs are moddable in Settings.txt : <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

While it can take some time to check, you can know if your retrofit orders can be carried out before you attempt it. Simply look at the cost of the new design and compare it to the construction cost of the old. If it exceeds 50%, you have two options.

(1)You can decide not to retrofit.
(2)You can create "interim designs"..which make some improvements and allow you to go step by step to your final design.

Option 2 is my general choice. Sure you have to take time figuring out how to do this (I've had retrofit plans that take 3-4 turns and designs), but it makes it more fun, as I have to weigh out not only retrofit and maintenance costs, but how well can I afford to leave ships semi-helpless while they are being redesigned into more powerful, effective ships.

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahh did not realize that. Now I wonder if there is a way to prevent you from building an empty hull then upgrading it in one turn. ie like a max no. of components on a hull that can be repaired per turn.

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yup this is way I do too. Pretty much what you have to do. What I don't like is having to calculated that 50% myself. They whole reason we have computers is to the calcs for us.

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only limits are how much repair capacity you've got in the sector, and how many resources you've got available to pay for it. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Last Christmas, my girlfriend gave me a combination mousepad/calculator. It gets used for SE IV more than anything else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

Just Start->Run-> Calc.exe

Add up the price, multiply by .5 and add that much worth of new components.

Re: You can\'t retrofit that in SE4!
 

I would like it if Space Empires could let you know what ship designs are available for you to retrofit. Either by only showing those designs you could choose, or at least only highlighting those.

DavidG, could I copy your Hobbes pic until I find something I like even better and be original?

[ November 24, 2002, 02:14: Message edited by: Cheeze ]