Opinion on emotionless
 

Hey there, I've been playing around with the Emotionless racial trait. Since it costs 3000 points, I also reduce the happiness racial characteristic to the minimum (and a few others a little bit). I then take the neutral happines type, as if that matters. I start the game with +10 % productiion bonus from happiness -- and I assume it will stay there no matter what.

How would you guys feel about this opponent on PBW? Do you think I'm exploiting a loophole in the rules that MM hadn't thought of because there's no harsh penalty for my choices -- just no possibility of bonuses.

Would you think it was more fair if I reduced all possible production characteristics by 10%? Could probably take another racial trait with all those points.

I'm really considering making an AI and a shipset around this race. A race of machines with organic components -- just not as mean as the Rage or self-rightous as the Vaxin.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

Re: the 10% production bonus.
Everybody else will have that 10% bonus at first, and it will rise to 20% permanently once their police force is established.

You'd need to take a +10% production modifier in order to keep up with the others.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

I will second what SJ is saying. You only get 800 points back for minimising your happiness. It's not exactly a "loophole". Basically you end up paying 2200 points for the racial trait. I think maybe Malfador made it 3000 points with the intention of people minimising their happiness and getting the 800 points back.

Even at that it's the most expensive racial trait. Personally I dont see the value in it at all except for role play reasons. The only time I take it is for a race that it makes sense for. You are actually limiting yourself by taking it, not getting any kind of advantage over the other players.

Geoschmo

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

Well, it does keep all your planets from rioting just at that critical point when 150 Concordium battleships open a warp point to your home system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

Thanks guys.

Geo: Yeah I remember a while back people disliked the high cost for emotionless, but hey, I like to role play

S J: Thanks, I didn't realize how easy to was to improve happiness with troops. Sometimes, when I spread my population really thin, on remote, small planets. I end up with lots of angry planets. Even if there are no enemy ships around. Like Ed says, I get a benefit when ememy ships are around -- but I shouldn't let that happen anyway.

Ed: Wait a minute... no cool new icon? That spaceman pic just screams for a cool background.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Naw, seeing that will make my population happy cause they will finally get to watch the slaughter in person rather than have to watch it on the news feeds transmitted by my allies as they rampage through Concordium space. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

I don't know if this bug has ever been fixed, but AFAIK, if an Emotionless race takes over another race's colony, that colony's Mood stays at its current setting permanently. If the colony was Rioting, the riots never stop.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

Emotionless is extremely valuable if and when disaster strikes. If you lose many ships and/or planets at once, all of your planets can go to rioting, which paralyzes your production. If you just lost your main fleet, this will greatly impede you from rebuilding it, unless you have masses of space-based construction capacity and lots of resource reserves and/or trade. I've seen this be a major factor in several PBW games.

What I am wondering now after capnq's post, is what happens if an emotionless race gets hit with an Anarchy Groups intelligence attack? Does it suffer permanent damage, or no damage? If permanent, I'd call it a bug that really messes up Emotionless races. If no damage, then it's another good advantage of Emotionless.

All told, and assuming my fear of the political parties bug is unfounded, I think Emotionless is somewhat undervalued... but only until you get smashed, at which point it could definitely save your skin.

As for capnq's point about captured planets, it's not correct (it should be based on the population on the planet, or at least even captured planets should normalize happiness). Can't it be fixed though by removing the population and re-populating (though, that's silly, and impractical in Proportions mod).

PvK

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I never got up the gumption to bug David to make one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Besides, it's only a stock Shrapnel forum avatar, believe it or not - Nebraskan uses the same one... I'm thinking maybe I should switch to a picture of Rimmer with Mr. Flibble from Red Dwarf before I ask for avatar enhancement...

(Completely off topic... Isn't the name "Rimmer" kind of naughty??? Or do I just have a dirty mind? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif )

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

"Completely off topic... Isn't the name "Rimmer" kind of naughty??? Or do I just have a dirty mind?"

Both. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could just be me, but I'd think that if you just had your main fleet crushed you've got a lot more to worry about than a few riots... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's true, if the emotionless trait comes in handy early on -- you're already in trouble. That said, I'm finding this automatic 10% to make a game easier than my usual games. I don't normally get all planets jubilant, I tend to get a few with Indifferent and a couple with Angry.

I must try some test games to see what intel does, take over an AI and park a monster fleet, etc.

I started a quick game against the default AI. I'm pulling no punches, so I'm really just walking over them. I was just playing around so I could see how my shipset looks.

I should restart vs TDM Modpack, medium bonus, yadda yadda. I should add the Rage by hand to make sure we meet and are in conflict.

[ December 11, 2002, 14:37: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I research Urban Pacification Centers very early on. In fact there are times I wish the stock happiness modifiers were multiples of 20% not 10% (i.e. jubilant gives you 40% - as it was in SE3) And yes, I know the figures can be modded.

The only problem I have with happiness is taking over multiple enemy planets (one is easy as your troops and fleet quell any riots within a turn). I read about how emotionless cancels out riot-control, so I've never picked it.

Then again, I've not played PBW so I've never lost a large fleet except for the odd mine-related disaster early on in a game...

...although in the current game my combined fleet of 50 (one third of which are unarmed support craft) came across 103 alien vessels and didn't have enough movement to warp out of the system again. Luckily for me, the AI decided to run away (lack of supplies? It was orbitting a third empire's planet though).

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not by just removing the population, because the Last 1M who won't leave the planet will continue to riot.

I think you can Abandon Planet at that point, then repopulate, but I've never tried that. The situation doesn't come up often enough to easily test.

I don't how Anarchy Groups affects Emotionless.

[ December 11, 2002, 21:40: Message edited by: capnq ]

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not if you have a very large empire, with scores of planetary shipyards, and/or you're playing the unmodded game where it's not usually worthwhile to have long-term resource reserves. A few planets and fleets can cause practically every planet to riot, and thus cripple the entire production base of a very large empire, and make it much harder for the empire to get back on its feet. As I said, I have seen this happen quite clearly in several PBW games. The afflicted empires would have been able to rebuild fairly quickly from a local defeat, but instead their economy was paralyzed and their construction ability mostly removed (essentially, they went from very wealthy to having to rely entirely on trade and space-based construction).

PvK

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

OK, a few notes on what I've observed in my test game, they're kinda all over the place, but here goes:

1). The anarchy Groups intel project failed 5 times. I think it's safe to say it doesn't work against emotionless races. Maybe it doesn't work if the race is too jubilant? Could it be that if you build Urban Pac and tons of troops, can normal races become immune?

2). Side note, to test that intel was working at all, I tried the cargo maintenance intel project. The message said it worked, but my weapon platforms were still there. I'd noticed that before, with other races, I don't think this intel project works at all. The population didn't get mad at the enemy intel success.

3). The food contamination project works fine, kills a bunch of people. I don't recall if that makes the population angry, I seem to recall it did, but that could have been something else. But they stayed emotionless until they were all gone By the way, the colony and facilities are still there.

4). I induced an enemy population to riot and captured it with troops. The turned emotionless instantly. I have had no immediate problems with them.

To be determined...

I gifted a bunch of ships to my enemy, so my planets are blockaded and there are huge fleets in my systems. We'll see if captured population and my original species stay emotionless, though I can't see how they would change.

Bottom line, emotionless bugs have been fixed by MM. I really must try an emotionless and a normal race side by side and see over all production. We know emotionless wins in a war that's going bad. I have to see if a +10 % bonus everywhere, all the time wins out over 20 % happiness most places, eventually.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think it worked that way in SE3...
The mood of the population was unimportant until they started rioting.
You could force them to work at 140% whenever you wanted, and they would simply get angrier.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1) We've done a lot of complaining about PPP and Ship Insurrection with Emotionless. It could be that MM fixed those and Anarchy Groups at the same time. I haven't played as Emotionless in a while so I can't say how it works in the current betas.

2) Cargo Maintenance is really the same thing as 'cargo bomb' against ships. It inflicts a certain amount of damage on your planetary cargo. If your units in cargo have a higher damage rating than the setting for the project, no damage. Just like units in combat suffer no damage until they are destroyed. I recommend upping the damage setting for this project because most WPs are too large to be affected by it even early in the game.

3) Food contamination is lame. It should affect a certain percentage of the population, not a fixed number. But that's an issue for SE V. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

4) That's moving from rioting to Emotionless. What about going the other way? What I wonder is, does the game track anger levels 'secretly' for Emotionless populations but just doesn't apply them... and would there be a sudden 'explosion' if you gave a bunch of planets in a difficult location (enemy ships present, etc.) to another empire? If rioting on planets in one system can affect your other systems, it could be an exploit against the AI. Hrm, it could even be an exploit if it affects other planets in the same system.

[ December 15, 2002, 03:20: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

1 - Well, I think it's a little unfair to make emotionless an uber trait. Some intel should work againt them. Removing crew insurrection is a little excessive. PPP? Well, I dunno. It's already got a modifier, maybe a small bonus for emotionless.

2 - Hmmm... OK. I had 15 small platforms on the planet. My usual start of the game platform, couple of CSM 1, DUC I in large mount, maybe shield and point defence. Something should have been lost,right Maybe I'll try again with sats in storage or something. Maybe they're small enough.

3 - I didn't really care, just testing that Intel was working.

4 - Don't know about people captureing the emotionless, but then, wouldn't troops and the UPC work? I don't know if mood spreads from system to system. When riots spread, I always assumed I was doing someting wrong in each system.

[ December 15, 2002, 14:16: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

Another test game. I used the map editor to cut off half the galaxy. In the other half I made all the planets similar -- rock, oxygen, 110/90/100 resource, unpleasant worlds, of various sizes. I set up some starting planets as well.

I started a 3000 point game with two Groups of Terrans, one emotionless at minimum happiness, no other bonus or benefits. The other Terrans are at default happiness, no other bonuses. The game was setup with bad home planet type.

When the game started, some of my starting planets changed, the emotionless got an extra planet, but oh well. I put on all the ministers and let them go. I prevented them from making contact until they colonized an equal number of planets. That was kinda annoying, what's this obsession with exploration when there are 10 breathables in your system?

They got into fights, but I prevented any ships from firing, for now. They have a trade alliance and all planets in their space are colonized.

The result:

Pretty interesting. Total score is very close. The emotionless were consistently behind for about
the first 50 turns. Now they're ahead. Both races have almost exactly the same amounts of everything score is based on, the only thing pushing the emotionless far ahead is units. All of the normal Terran planets are happy + 10 % production. But there were some indifferent and angry planets before. So I guess, even with indifferent and angry, the benefit of a few jubilant planets is still there.

I'm just going to let them continue on their own and see what happens. I can't wait to see what happens when the XiChung I put in that closed off half of the galaxy open warp points and start streaming through. The started on a ringworld. Heh. If the game is interesting enough I'll have the Terrans surrender to the XiChung and fight them back with my emotionless Terrans.

[ December 15, 2002, 14:20: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think it worked that way in SE3...
The mood of the population was unimportant until they started rioting.
You could force them to work at 140% whenever you wanted, and they would simply get angrier.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're right that it worked differently, but if you had the SE3 Version of an urban pacification center, you could run the planet at 140% production almost indefinitely without it rioting. I think the anger would creep up very slowly. Without the control centers anger would fly up if you tried running at maximum production and it'd take ages to come back down again.

I love these 'work harder, you bloody peasants' facilities.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not sure of this, but I think starting points placed in the Map Editor only affect the first planet for each empire; any other planets in multi-planet starts are still random.

I do know that you don't have to place a starting point on a planet; Set Up will put one in the sector if there isn't one there already.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not if you have a very large empire, with scores of planetary shipyards, and/or you're playing the unmodded game where it's not usually worthwhile to have long-term resource reserves. A few planets and fleets can cause practically every planet to riot, and thus cripple the entire production base of a very large empire, and make it much harder for the empire to get back on its feet. As I said, I have seen this happen quite clearly in several PBW games. The afflicted empires would have been able to rebuild fairly quickly from a local defeat, but instead their economy was paralyzed and their construction ability mostly removed (essentially, they went from very wealthy to having to rely entirely on trade and space-based construction).

PvK</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, I know what you're talking about since in my first PBW game ever, I ran into that exact problem when my allies surrendered to me while the enemy was ripping apart their territories http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

The case you're making for emotionless though, relies on too many 'ifs' for my liking. I'd rather pick traits that'll allow my empire to have a go at becoming large enough to take advantage of the emotionless trait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

While we're on the topic of rioting, how exactly does that work? Will having a 4000 pop planet glassed, have the same effect as having a 1 pop planet glassed? Will having a more productive planet glassed have the same effect as having a less productive planet glassed?

I personally don't think having a couple of low value planets glassed should cause everybody in the whole empire to riot, unless the planets in question were located only one or two jumps away from a major population center, or the player's home system... Any way to implement this?

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

"Will having a 4000 pop planet glassed, have the same effect as having a 1 pop planet glassed?"

Yes. And, No. Planet death, as a bad thing, is treated without regard to the size of the planet. However, there is also a penalty per 1M pop killed. Losing 3999M on a large breathable will hurt more than losing a 100M moon to a planet destroyer.

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This happens to me sometimes when I use the map editor. I guess my starting planet wasn't bad enough for a bad start. They don't have an extra planet one of mine got lost somehow.

My plan was for a one planet start. There are a total of 10 empty rock oxygen planets for each of them to colonize, I wanted to see the new colony's mood.

You won't believe the problems I had ... the map generator consistently connected my systems. I had to make sure I shut off all warp points connected, generated a random map, viewed it, then reloaded my map. And one time those steps didn't work. Sheesh. I had to reload my map in the editor each time and edit out the warp points

You won't believe the mess it made of the XiChung half -- they have a system with more than 20 planets ... some say Velocitas and some say Hiju. I think I deleted one of those systems but the planets stayed behind. Why did I delete that system, you ask? Because it was a nebula with planets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif .

[ December 16, 2002, 12:28: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

Krsqk:
Ahh. Thanks for the info http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Opinion on emotionless
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're right, this is more of a role playing choice. Seems to me, in the early game, it really isn't a disadvantage -- but you are losing some possible bonus. I'll complete my shipset and play it on PBW some time. We'll see what happens to them. They're using the Druoshka AI right now, I'll tweek that later.