The Perfect fighter
 

I have large fighter tech, My opponent has medium fighters.
But he is organic.
He has Elecric Discharge 3 on them.
He's medium fighters take out my large fighters easily, I can't seem to build a good fighter.
Wich components should I have.
Do shield and armour give any effects on fighters, they don't take much damage even with shields.
What weapon should I have, I made some with rocket pods but they are destroyed by fighters before they even get close to the enemy ship.
I've tried adding ECM and Scanners.
With 10 jacketed photon engines and afterburner I can outrun his fighters if we're not coming head on, but I wan't to killthem!

Help!!

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

the electric discharge has a range of 3, IIRC. that will make it hard for you to get things within range b4 you will be attacked.

edit: and a damage of 20 pts. that will be hard to beat. at least there is no small organic armor or you would have an even harder time. i play organic myself and i really enjoy this advantage.

edit edit: sorry i cant offer you any advise on this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ December 18, 2002, 17:33: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

There really is no perfect fighter. It depends on whom you are fighting at the time, and how they design their fighters/ships.

When I have organics, I like to make about half my fighters with one rocket pod and one electric discharge, so if they only get a chance to shoot once, they can make it count. The other half will be all electric discharge; if they survive long enough they will out damage the rocket pods. You just have to watch the combats to see how long your fighters are Lasting, then design accordingly.

Organic tech does make the best fighters, so to combat them try adding more PDF's to your fleet to shoot them down.

Ship mounted Phased-Polaron Beams can knock out fighters fairly handily also, especially since fighters don't get phased shields. PPBs are just the best all around weapon in the game, IMHO.

You could try using anti-fighter drones as well; they might make a cheap PDF platform, and they use regular size components (armor/shields) as well. I haven't tried this yet, but maybe I will...

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

Ruatha,

Your opponent has the strongest fighter design.

Rocket pods reach max strength with Missiles III. Adding shields/armor will help, but it sounds like his fighter stacks are bigger than yours. Increasing the stack may help some fighters getting through.

As was stated, PDC are the way to go for killing fighters. Kills Bugs Dead! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What is remarkable to me is that you actually have large fighters! ...and you are fighting other fighters with your fighters! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif This seems like a rarity to me. By that time in the game (the research investment to get to large fighters), it seems like ships/fleets would be so awesome, fighters would be a mere distraction.

For me, Fighters:
Early game - very useful
Mid game - useful until PDC becomes common
Late Game - very rare

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

I have to agree with Stone Mill. Fighters after a certain point in the game simply are no longer practical. Your better off researching PDC, than fighters. Keep them away from your ships, and use your heavy armored ships to take out their carriers. Most of the time the AI carriers have no armorment and are easily destroyed even by ships as small as Escorts.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

temporal makes good fighters too.

one of my favorite se4 moments was a fighter duel between planets in a jointly colonized system, when fleets were too far away to be distracted by the conflict. ships would have taken too long to build, and this was a pre-gold game. I lost almost all of my colonies, but held the system after the dust settled.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the game limits the number of ships you can have, as is the case in a PBW game I'm playing currently, then fighters certainly are useful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT: Fighters also make good warp point defenses against AIs that send drones through unaccompanied. Since warhead-only drones can't target fighters -> turkey shoot.

[ December 18, 2002, 18:54: Message edited by: DarkHorse ]

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

I have level 5 PDC, but he has massive amounts of fighters, several hundreds I guess (I counted more then 370 of them). He annihilated afleet with ships from destroyers up to severeal battleships, they had PPB's and level 5 PDC.
I took out his capital ships but his carriers and fighters won the day, most of his carriers got away unharmed. I had no ships left (a ship fleet, mainly Big ships with Null space projectors and PPB, with shields mucho PDC)!
The fleet cost me 120 000 minerals/turn + mucho rads, My allies held me up by gifting minerals each turn as I couldn't afford the maintnance myself.
So I'm quite pleased in away that it's destroyed.

[ December 18, 2002, 18:57: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

A long time ago someone suggested interceptors and bombers -- fighters with targeting strategy set to target other fighters or planets respectively.

Interceptors are useful against other fighters, they whittle down the group by arriving first before ships with PDC. Your fast fighters are just what you need here.

But the fact is, fighters swarm like flies, and die like them too, you will need masses of them. Your interceptors will be cut down by point defense.

I also like interceptors for sats mounting the WMG and missle sats. They are defenceless. And I'm not gonna waste my top of the line battle cruiser agains a mass of null cannon sats.

[ December 18, 2002, 18:53: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your ships are ignoring fighters at their peril, you can also rearrange your targetting priorities in the strategies section.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

No, they took out approx 150 fighters with PDC and PPB.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoops! Unit Shield points are treated as damage resistance points. 60 shield = 60kt damage resistance, now add that to all of the componants damage resistance. A fully shielded light fighter can take about 83kt of damage.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoops! Unit Shield points are treated as damage resistance points. 60 shield = 60kt damage resistance, now add that to all of the componants damage resistance. A fully shielded light fighter can take about 83kt of damage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aha, I have learned something new today then.

At any rate, typical capital ship-mounted PPBs are doing 100+ damage each, which will still cut through stacks fairly quickly anyway, shields or no.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

I got lucky against one opponant with massive number of fighters. I got them to chase me and they did it in carriers. Since their fleet caught up to mine, we started combat close to each other and I got first shot (kinda like a worm hole defense). I crippled all ten carriers and boarded about 5 of them.
If they had caught up to me with just the fighters I would have lost about half my ships. But... I would have not been running away to the rally point, but would have charged their fleet head on so that when combat started we were on opposite sides of the battle field.

Knowing how to get up close is important with fighters. I was told the fleet movement phase was covered in the Gold manual.

[ December 18, 2002, 19:13: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoops! Unit Shield points are treated as damage resistance points. 60 shield = 60kt damage resistance, now add that to all of the componants damage resistance. A fully shielded light fighter can take about 83kt of damage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aha, I have learned something new today then.

At any rate, typical capital ship-mounted PPBs are doing 100+ damage each, which will still cut through stacks fairly quickly anyway, shields or no.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Great, glad I could help. I'm sure it works that way for Fighters, Troops, and SATs, but I'm not sure about Weapon Platforms.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

Just to extend on the PDC thoughts. If he has such huge masses of Fighters you do want lots of PDC on your ships. How many do you have on your designs that were in that fight? If only 3 or 4 per ship then I would suggest building a special ship say Cruiser size or so, doesn't matter which hull you use, but fill it up with PDC and shields or armor. Then send those ships in, if you have 15-20 PDCs on your ships you will surely take his fighters out before he can hurt you too badly.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

Rags,

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe you have it now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The lightbulb just flickered on!!

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe you have it now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The lightbulb just flickered on!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Add in a combat sensors. It can help tip the balance.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

Will make that in the next major fleet!!!

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

I've actually found that fighters can be very useful, even when tech is high. But you have to build lots of them. As in, every single planet you have that's not building facilities or ships, are building fighters (or troops). I had a bunch of movement 2 carriers that only sat on warp points to ferry Groups of 100 fighters to the next system, and transports. Transports were generally used to collect fighters at a single planet for launch, as the fighters are faster than any other ship. "Conquest" fleets would have a faster Version of the ferry carriers, which would split from the fleet, go into the system to be attacked, and launch fighters. The fighters would beeline to all the warps, sealing them off (when you have a single stack of about 100 fighters with Electric Discharge III, there are very, very few ships that will survive a single shot, so it would take a very big fleet to break through). Then small Groups of ships will go in and kill any stray ships, while the main fleet will attack the largest planet, and capture it. That planet immediately starts producing troops to help capture the rest of the system. Very effective when done right.

Anyway, as for your problem... Probably the best fighters are ones with Electric Discharge or Time Distortion Burst (the latter especially with heavy-shielded enemies). If you want to take them out with fighters, I don't quite know what "standard" weapon would work best, but you'll need a lot of them. Your best bet, though, is to have the PDC boats mentioned. Make them as fast as possible, size should be in the Light Cruiser to Battle Cruiser range. Experiment with the ratio of PDC/Armor/Shields, find the best combo.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is that correct? ISTR that PDC was not affected by combat bonuses....I'm probably wrong, but just checking...

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is that correct? ISTR that PDC was not affected by combat bonuses....I'm probably wrong, but just checking...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just tested this with v1.49 (with TDM-ModPack).

At maximum range against a Sat stack with ECM-III, the ship with no sensors has a 71% chance to hit with PDC, the one with sensors III has 100% (they fixed the bug of adding weapon bonuses Last in gold didn't they?) So the sensors are useful. I used sats as the PDCs don't automatically fire at them - I guess it could be different for missiles and fighters but you can't see the numbers.

PDC has a 70% bonus to hit according to the Components file.

Hmmm. Will order gold after christmas I think. I'm fed up of being behind the times regarding bug fixes.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

OT: but I always put at least one launch bay and a few cargo containers on my bigger ship designs, fighters are the perfect point defense I think

heres my regular fighter design for a large
Cockpit
Life
6 engines
Afterburner
one shield
and the rest is all small meso...
Thats what I suually use =/

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

another good fighter stag is the WP SB - F or the Warp Point Star Base Fighter ... 2500 kt of 1 space yard , CC , The exact number of fighter bays to launch 50 fighters a turn lots of cargo and have the puppy building fighters on repeat... Don't forget some PD on it... And let it does its job.. and forget about it.... ALso 2 or 3 500 kt bases building these babies on repeat... Add Sat's with only Shield depleters and Engine Killers and you are going to cause some major damage to fleets... As when the ships run out of supplies there sitting ducks for your fighters...

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do the same, but I try to contol their speed to be one step faster than the mother ship, so they don't crowd it -- but slow enough so they're still around. The fighters milling around keep enemy ships from closing to point blank range.

[ December 18, 2002, 22:53: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

IMHO the best fighter strategy without any of the racial technologies is to use massive amounts of SMALL fighters. My standard Small Fighter design is:

Cockpit
Life Support
8 Engines
1 Small Anti-Proton Beam III

I then set the strategy for the design to "Point Blank" You can build almost 4 times as many of these as you can of Large Fighters in a signle turn and even though you lose massive amounts of them they're a lot cheaper to build and you can get more of them in less time. I haven't actually used a Medium or Large Fighter since about 20 games back and that's after I went and modded all the AIs to be more far more aggressive.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Put at least one non-PDC weapon on the ship; if it only has PDCs, it will run for the corners as if it were unarmed.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It isn't actually neccessary to put anything besides PDC on the ship, you simply click the "stats/strategy" option in the design window(under "hide obsolete") and change the ship strategy from "Don't Get Hurt" to "Optimal Weapons Range", "Short Weapons Range", "Point BLank", etc. IMO Point Blank is the best strategy but I play with massive amounts of highly disposable cheap crappy ships and units and so I don't actually need to worry about KEEPING anything that I build, it's all supposed to go suicide anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but that one weapon should not be the null space cannon. It has a short range and will try to get too close to the capital ships. I'm not sure, but I don't think the null space cannon can target fighters.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It isn't actually neccessary to put anything besides PDC on the ship, you simply click the "stats/strategy" option in the design window(under "hide obsolete") and change the ship strategy from "Don't Get Hurt" to "Optimal Weapons Range", "Short Weapons Range", "Point BLank", etc. IMO Point Blank is the best strategy but I play with massive amounts of highly disposable cheap crappy ships and units and so I don't actually need to worry about KEEPING anything that I build, it's all supposed to go suicide anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What Capn is talking abou there is the bug where an all PDC ship will run for th ecorners even if it has a strategy of point blank, or optimal or anything like that.

It has something to do with the fact that the game doesn't actually consider PDC as a weapon for the purposes of strategy.

If you have found a way to workaround that, by all means let us know. But it's not as simple as giving your ship a strategy other than "Don't get hurt".

Geoschmo

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

"It has something to do with the fact that the game doesn't actually consider PDC as a weapon for the purposes of strategy."

Hmm. Does an all CSM or all WMG ship run for the corners if attacked by only fighters? It might be the PD ship running away because it doesn't see anything it can hurt..

Phoenix-D

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

No that's not it. Cause it runs for the corners even if there are fighters available to shoot at.

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The capital ship missile is a good idea IMHO. The ship closes to CSM range, fires, then runs away. THEN, as fighters close, it comes back. The fighters won't be in range, and the point defense cannons fire as they close further.

The WMG may do the same, or not, but I think null space is a bad idea because it's short range will cause the ship to close in on enemy ships too much, then try to run away during the reload. But it's too far in the thick of things.

Now the anti proton beam, which is available every combat turn, will just cause the ship to close on enemy vessels. That's no good. It will soon be surrounded by massed fighters and the PDC will be overwhemed.

[ December 19, 2002, 03:37: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: The Perfect fighter
 

I like the psychic fighters best. The Small Telekinetic weapon has a very good damage to kt ratio (25/4) and a range of 3. My fighter designs also go for 1 move faster than the cap ships. I like med to large fighters because once a fighter gets some shields the stack survivability goes up very high. Ideally I try to create a fighter that takes 1 or more PDC V shots to kill.

For the extra wep to throw onto the PDC Cap ship, I tend to not use CSM cause CSM doesnt target fighter Groups. I like a long range weapon that can hit fighters. Of course, the PDC ship strat has to me maximum range to keep it away from the enemy fighters. Also give it as much speed as you can too so it can keep the fighters out of range.