New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Hi !

I was wondering if Drones can CAPTURE ships - I tested this by creating a drone with a Subverter and attacking a target ship ... (I changed the drone's strategy to "Ship capture" instead of "Drone Attack"

and it works !!

Not only did the drone nicely captured the target, but the next turn, it was ready (and fully functionnal) to target other ships ... !!

S C A R Y !! (unless you have a master computer)

Now an important question: If the Master Computer of a ship is destroyed, can that ship be captured by the Subverter ??

RiTz21
P.S. I did not try with boarding Parties... but I suspect it would be similar...

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

I don't know if you could give a unit the order to capture a ship (ala Boarding Parties). I know early P&N had fighter-based Swashbuckler Pods which didn't work.

In 1.78, ships with destroyed MCs can be subverted. I remember a couple of changes in the latest history which addressed this, but I think one of them cancelled the other one out. Not sure what the result was.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Odd...I can't say I had ever thought of setting a ship equipped with Allegiance Subverter to "Capture Ship". I was under the impression that the "Capture Ship" strategy was only for Boarding parties, so that the attacking ship would seek out an unshielded enemy and attempt to get next to it.

Ritz21..when you used this strategy, did the target ship have shields? It seems like the "Capture Ship" strategy causes that ship to run away from any shielded ships and cower in a corner. I would like to know if this idea works consistently. When playing a psychic race, I might equip warships with both Subverters and Boarding Parties, in case the first weapon doesn't hit the ship might be boarded and seized!!

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

I don't know if you could give a unit the order to capture a ship (ala Boarding Parties). I know early P&N had fighter-based Swashbuckler Pods which didn't work."

Subverters work differently than that, and they do work on units. Well, on Drones at least, I haven't tested them on other units.

Phoenix-D

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

"Subverters work differently than that, and they do work on units. Well, on Drones at least, I haven't tested them on other units."

They do work on everything but troops (which would be a nightmare in ground combat). I was responding to his P.S., and then back to his main point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

There seems to be an AI race that uses Drones with subverters on a regular basis.
Alligience subverters don't require shields to be down.
But I agree that the strategy "Capture ships" should make the ship hide until shields are down on the enemy as the strategy indicates we intend to use boarding parties, wich by the way can't be added to a drone, can't put units on a unit, I was told.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Boarding parties aren't units, they're components.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Torons.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For now, yes. After the next patch, no. The plan is for the Master Computer to function like an antisubverter component, intact or destroyed.

It's only fair, really, if subverter drones are around.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

is it just me or is the subverter too powerful a weapon?

i mean seriously, all the psychic race needs to do is match up destroyers vs battleships, 1 for 1, and win with subverters...

it seems WAY unbalanced imho, (i don't like using master computers, because they are expensive, and really only cost effective on ships larger than battleships)

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's just you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Oh, I'm kidding. This comes up a lot. But it's not as easy as it looks. Combat still has to happen, ships must close and not be shot out, etc.

Just a little FYI, the master computer saves space in larger hulls and higher tech levels. And for baseship or starbase, with their 3 life supports and 3 crew quarters – MC actually costs less

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

I like to put subverters on satellites, then put a mountain of them at the warp points as a welcoming committee. "Welcome to the party folks, check your ships at the door". They work well on weapon platforms also, which extend their range even further than satellites do.

Edit: typo

[ January 03, 2003, 16:21: Message edited by: DarkHorse ]

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, you're smart enough to scrap what you can't afford. The AI doesn't, and soon chokes under it's own maintenance costs.

The drones and ships subvert what's already in enemy territory. So the AI can use them against you.

If someone insists on loading sats with the subverter ... I say, let him have some ships. Try 20 1 engine no weapon escorts. Or perhaps a dreadnought, 1 engine, lots of stellar manipulators ... no supply.

[ January 03, 2003, 18:23: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

still, way to powerful

and frankly creates an umbeatable combo

subverters + talismans + computer virus (these go thru shields right? even phased?)

anyway, u could use a single gun of each type on a high ecm destroyer and take out fleets of dreadnoughts with this combo... total bs if u ask me

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

"subverters + talismans + computer virus (these go thru shields right? even phased?)"

3000 racial points. A lot can be done with 3000 racial points..and you have to research both those before they can be used. Relgious players already risk early-game attack; a player with that combo is screaming "kill me now, before I get the weapons I need!"

Phoenix-D

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

still, you wouldn't 'need' the religous tech...

good fleet/ship training and combat sensor 3 should be good enough

and then the subverter/computer virus combo wins everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

unfair, and unbalanced

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfair: Maybe.
Unbalanced: Slightly.

But just as every other stratagy you can come up with there is almost always a counter. You could very easily devise a defense to counter the Religious/Virus/Subverter combo. Granted it is probably one of the harder combos to defend against but nevertheless, it is possible.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you want your best shipyard to spend 40 turns building that dread, knock yourself out! I've already won http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Regardless, I only use the satellites against the AI, humans it would only work against once, maybe. The AI doesn't seem to be in any hurry to build master computers.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfair: Maybe.
Unbalanced: Slightly.

But just as every other stratagy you can come up with there is almost always a counter. You could very easily devise a defense to counter the Religious/Virus/Subverter combo. Granted it is probably one of the harder combos to defend against but nevertheless, it is possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True, there's always a way. Can't beat their ships? Steal 'em with intel. Can't get by their satellites/mines/whatever? Make your own warp points. It may take a while, but there's a way around everything.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not in the next patch (I think somebody said that already).

And how does that combo win everything? Subverters and Computer Viruses only have ranges of 5 and 6, respectively. Many powerful conventional weapons (WMG, CSM, APB) can beat them in a flash.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

bah, subverters are just too damn powerful... they ain't exactly expensive to research, and they beat any other 'normal' weapon

fighters are useless in the late game due to ppb's and pd, and ship hull's and phased shields and large/heavy mount weapons are the true 'power'...

being able to hold off someone who has researched 4 times more pure research than you just cuz you have subverters is just wrong... which other special tech gives you that?

imho, phased shields should block virus and subverters... at least then you can defend

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not in the next patch (I think somebody said that already).

And how does that combo win everything? Subverters and Computer Viruses only have ranges of 5 and 6, respectively. Many powerful conventional weapons (WMG, CSM, APB) can beat them in a flash.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">lol, conventional weapons beat them in a flash, sure, if both people set to max range...

you know as well as i do that almost all experienced players in pbw games use solar sails and so ships are fast enough to close the distance difference without a problem, killing your conventional weapon = greater range theory

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

"you know as well as i do that almost all experienced players in pbw games use solar sails and so ships are fast enough to close the distance difference without a problem, killing your conventional weapon = greater range theory"

No, it doesn't. Even if both ships are the same speed, the other player is still going to get shots in before you can close the distance (i.e. when they run up against the combat boundry).

Phoenix-D

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

lol, yeah, but again i say, the person using subverters will have point blank set, if they are smart, and considering that ship movement is like usually 5+ per combat turn, your range advantage of 2 hexes will mean nothing...

not to mention that max range usually is always super high miss % with ecm3 + training...
so most won't use it anyway in 'advanced' pbw games

(btw geo, fix pbw already lol, i'm going nuts lurking here just cuz i can't play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So if everyone is using a solar sail and you are set to max weapons range and the AS/RT/CV combo player has a shorter range what the hell does it matter? There are ways to overcome it.....

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

[/qb][/quote]So if everyone is using a solar sail and you are set to max weapons range and the AS/RT/CV combo player has a shorter range what the hell does it matter? There are ways to overcome it.....[/QB][/quote]

please give me a way? ( one that is reasonable and plausible?;p )

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

fighters are faster. drones are faster. longer range weapons, or missiles. AS has less of a chance of working at longer ranges. in the new patch, MCs will prevent subVersions, even when destroyed...

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Well the EASIEST way to do this(combat simming this combo and different counters for it on max tech start for the Last hour) that I can find is Talisman+Heavy Mount(insert weapon with range of 7 or more) set to max range while using solar sail.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

lol, puke, you know that fighters in the late game are just eaten up... totally useless against a max tech game...

and enigma, the talisman is the other unbalanced component i think that exists in se4... try not to use it? how good are long range weapons at max range with only combat sensor 3 + experience against a destroyer with ecm3 + stealth armor3 + experience? will you ever even hit at max range? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

anyway, my idea is make both virus and subverter work ONLY after phased shields are down ... whats wrong with that?

heck, i'd make them even not work on regular shields and armor too maybe... whynot? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif at least then the psychic race will need to research shield depleting weapons etc like the rest of the galaxy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ January 03, 2003, 20:45: Message edited by: Cirvol ]

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

how many battles are just one on one? who really has the range advantage if one person spent the game researching subverters and viruses, and the other spent it building up an industrial base and reasearching weapons? these areguements are silly.

you can only retreat so far, if you keep backing up to max range, you will eventually hit the wall. and if you dont hit the first time with those subverters, you are **** outa luck. come on guys, subverters are neat, but not overpowerwed. this has all been addressed in other threads.

putting them on drones is a good idea, but its not all that effective. like most drone strategies, it depends entirely on your ability to stockpile the drones in peacetime. and with all the ways to abuse drone launch (triggering them to launch with feigned attacks) its hard to make work. just like all drone attacks. but they do have their time and place.

but please, keep on thinking that there is only one way to win.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Subverters have a very long recharge time. It might as well be considered a 1 shot per battle weapon. The large size of the weapon can leave the ship basically useless for the rest of the battle. It only has a 100% chance to subvert up close, if it hits. So it is tricky to deploy.

If you make shields a defense against subverters, they really will become useless due to the recharge time.

Using subverters in drones sounds awesome. They are fast enough to get close, and can ram as a secondary strategy.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

it is ridiculously easy to win with psychic and religious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

as someone mentioned, its a big sign in a pbw game to "kill this guy early or else"...

and what happens if its a huge galaxy and no one get to him in time?

if you got room to grow... it would be super hard to stop this combo... but only for 2 reasons...

1 = that talismans are STILL unbalanced
2 = that subverters going thru phased-shields makes them unbalanced... (making master computers stop them isn't enough imho)

does anyone disagree with those 2 points?

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Well, I'm playing Religious and Psychic in a huge galaxy with lots of warp points.
The Shrines and the Psychic Ship training are most helpfull ;-)
I wish I had more points for maintenance reduction. There are too many warp points in this huge galaxy for SATs stacks to be effective. I have about 5000 units now and only inhabit 1/7 the galaxy. There is a 20,000 unit limit.
I do not consider Subverter and Talisman uber weapons. They both take a lot of room in a ship. I consider them to be the icing on the cake in the late game.
The cake is playing a good game of rock, paper, scissors with your opponants, and doing some solid economy management.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry but I do not agree.
If it is a large galaxy and they have time to grow and build up. Yes it will be a harder challange to destroy that empire but not nearly impossible.
Ok first we will consider the Talisman. If you are religious and you have this component without the AS. All the defender has to do is use a max range stratagy and they can easily defeat you if done right. Use missles, if PD is too heavy then go to the longest firing beam weapon you have with lots of combat modifiers.

Now lets look at the AS. As was already mentioned the load time hurts the AS badly. Again, you can use the max range stratagy against this as well as was mentioned. The AS has a max range of what 5? 6? You can easily over come that with the WMG or like weapon. Once again making it not impossible to defeat the AS.
If you are not religious with the AS then it will be harder to use the AS to win a game. Because it has a 100% to convert only at 1 range. After that it falls off alot. I think 50% by range 5 or 6 which ever it is. Which isn't that much.

Now look at both as a combo. It makes it a whole lot harder to defend against. But once again, not impossible. Deploy the max range stratagy and presto you have a fighting chance. Sure if you get within range with that combo you could be in trouble. But thats why you don't get within range. Keep as far as you can away from them and you can easily win the battle.

So while the Talisman may be a bit unbalanced I do not feel that it is a uber trait to have.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 - I agree. The component should be larger and more expensive.
2 - I disagree. I think the fix in the next patch will more or less balance them.

-Spoon

-----
There is so a spoon.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

In all the discussion of the talisman + virus + subverter I have question about the subverter itself. How does the "damage" of the subverter relate to its ability to convert an enemy ship? Is it a percentage chance that it will succeed? Does the "damage" relate to enemy tonnage, or some such thing?

I have wondered about the virus/subverter combo. My reasoning for it's was that a ship controlled by a MC is not completely free of a crew. It just doesn't require the same number of crew that need the bridge, life support and crew quarters. If/when a MC is taken out, this skeleton crew can run the ship. That is why the ship can still move (albeit only 1 space) and shoot, as well as any other ship functions. A long time ago I played against someone where my virus/subverter combo worked. However, it generally only did so against heavily-damaged ships, I mean very heavy damage. I'd seen some ships get hit (without that talisman, the accuracy of that weapon seems to stink!) and not be affected. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's not like the AS is the only weapon on the ship, and the Talisman wins hands down in a max-range/max-range battle.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Missiles rarely work, and the Talisman player can have just as many combat modifiers

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd put my money on the AS ships

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can put them on mounts, which raises it up pretty high.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The main balancing factor is the tendency to gang up on Talisman weilders, and to do it early. This is a good sign that it is unbalanced. However, the threat of such an alliance kind of makes for a cool game mechanic in games with experienced players.

-spoon

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1. Yes, talismans are unbalanced. Lower it from a guarenteed hit to a regular size combat sensor with a bonus (+150), and add another level of combat sensor for the normal races (+85).

2. No, to your solution unless the subverters fire rate is increased.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, sorry, didn't think of that!

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Ok, so we're all mostly in agreement that talismans are pretty out of balance...

(my personal solution is to just change it to +99% chance to hit as this is what i think makes the most sense, and is a good balance with all the 'normal' races having +65% with combat sensor 3's (but the more i think of a 'normal' +85% cs4, the more i like it... hard to decide tho, since it really affects everything a lot)

having master computers is the 'current' solution to the subverter 'balance' problem...

(someone mentioned that even after a mc is destroyed that the ship will be unable to be subverted in the upcoming patch ... anyone have an eta on the next gold-patch??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

the only issue with this is the cost... i will of course be using mc's against any psychic races, but still, it forces an expensive cost into a light cruiser design which would normally need only 1500 mineral for the cq, bridge, and ls... vs what, 4k mineral, 1k of org and 1k rad for a computer?

if you have a self-destruct device, will it blow up the offending subverter ship as well?... does it even work vs subverters? (in terms of blowing up?)

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Hey, When I got home I tried DRONES with SUBVERTERS in Gold Patch 2 simulator.

Seems the drones need a POINT BLANK or RAM movement order. Short, Optimal, or Max movement orders result in the drones running away.

note: A Capture Ship movement order is ignored and the secondary movement order (point blank) is used. That's why it works.

Three drones do good against a Battle Cruiser.
Six drones get killed before closing to point blank range against my Baseship. They bunch up into Groups of 3.

Comments anyone?

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Cirvol,
Master Computers have another issue, the Computer Virus. It has a fire rate of 3.
Use it with large mounts and a fire priority of fastest ship and it is devastating.

I would not use MC without a backup crew. I would not use Subverter without the Computer Virus. The double threat would cause opponents to spend space, minerals and build time. Where as good portion of my ships will be cheaply equiped with normal weapons.

[ January 04, 2003, 04:09: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Capture Ship strategy only applies to Boarding Parties. Subverters are considered a normal weapon for the purpose of that strategy.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Subverters on drones would be much too evil with the way subverters currently work. It's too easy to over-whelm defenses with huge numbers of drones. Now, if you changed the way subverters work so it's not so 'all or nothing' then it might be reasonable. This would involve changing the way ship capture works, too.

I suggested a long time ago that ship capture should take more than one round. It should be more like planet capture is, with multiple rounds of combat and each side taking casualties before the issue is decided. (And, both side should be able to fire on a ship that is 'in dispute' so you could destroy your own ship rather than see it captured!)

If this were implemented, then the Subverter could convert a percentage of the crew instead of just having a percentage chance to totally succeed or fail. The loyal crew and the subverted crew could then fight it out as if the ship had been boarded. Boarding parties could be subverted, too, of course! Could boarding parties capture their own ship? Why not? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yes, under some circumstances a ship could still be totally subverted in one round -- especially by multiple hits -- but with careful balancing of the power of the subverter this could be less common than it currently is while still preserving the effectiveness of the Subverter. In particular, the subverter on a drone or satellite should be much less powerful than the subverter on a ship. Then the many attacks possible with units could be properly balanced.

And there needs to be some sort of 'psychic damper' technology to reduce the effectiveness of the Subverter. Even if it's an artifact tech that is only occasionally available that's better than no defence at all.

[ January 04, 2003, 04:33: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Not to rehash the entire of AS/Talisman/Uberweapon (like it's not going on anyway):
1) Build hundreds or thousands of smaller ships. The AS can only capture so many per combat. Swarm them to death.
2) Researching Talisman or AS costs a good deal of extra research. Getting both costs a horrendous amount of extra research. Your economy is unlikely to be able to support all those extra ships you're going to be stealing. If you're just going to scrap them, then why not blow them up in the first place? It's more efficient in a 25-30 turn combat.
3) As stated before, it takes a while to catch up to ships/fleets set at max range. An opponent with good strategies can pick you to death.
4) Use fighters. Sure, they can be slaughtered by PDC, but AS and Talisman already take up a lot of space. PDC just takes more away from your real weapons--and I'm sure you remembered to pack those as well, right?
5) Use swarms of small boarding party ships. They don't cost much, they build quickly, and it doesn't matter if you a few get subverted--you can kill them pretty quickly anyway. If the AS ship doesn't have a self-destruct, you get all that pretty weaponry. The AS chain-reaction effect is pretty well documented. If it does have a self-destruct, then it's mission accomplished anyway.

It makes no sense, BTW, to allow shields to block psychic crew conVersion. It's supposed to be something extra-material. I don't remember the descriptions for the other psychic weapons off-hand, but it may make some sense to allow those to be blocked by shields/armor.

In summary, of course AS + Talisman hurts your opponent--it's supposed to. After all, you're spending 3000 RP on it. They can spend 3000 RP on a whole lot of other things--propulsion experts, better SY rate, better maintenance reduction, better economy, better aggressiveness, etc... There is no perfect counter to any option (well, except for building nothing but colony ships and sensor sats); but there are ways to defeat any combo. It should be expensive to defeat the AS+Talisman combo, given its cost in RP.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Subverters are not all or nothing, esp. without mounts. If the damage is lower than 100, then there is a chance they fail (as the chance to convert equals the damage). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

While on the "it makes no sense" wagon, how exactly does one go about using psychic weapons from unmanned units like sats or drones? Do they "borrow" someone's brain and put it onboard? This is just plain weird. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

The mind is nothing more than a sophisticated system of electrical impulses. It could be replicated on a drone or something with enough study and time.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Either your ship is converted to the enemy, or it has no effect. They work or they don't. That's the definition of 'all or nothing'. If the crew could be subverted in increments you could have a much more interesting situation.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Krsk, you made an excellent post. I would add two other options to combat these weapons.

1)Use engine destroyers - If you eliminate the Talisman/Subverter ship's ability to move, you may prevent it from closing to a distance where it can use this weapon. Now it can be eliminated by longer-ranged weapons without worry.

2)Use repulser beams - As with the above strategy, this might allow your ships to move in, strike and then push the Talisman/Subverter ship far beyond a range to move in and attack.

The combination of 1 and 2 would appear to work well.

I might have added Weapon Overloading weapons, but I have never really seen them used, and they do not seem worthwhile, given their poor range, limited damage and slow firing rate. Perhaps on starbases, satellites or weapons platforms (in Gold) this might be different.