does religious *need* the talisman?
 

i've been thinking (i think too much today) - do religious races actually need their Talisman?
Not that it makes ab****ely no sense, but all the facilities you get from religious are just excellent for all but bloodbath scenarios and allow players to build more, fight better and be well-defended. If the talisman was removed from the game would you people still use religious?
Personally i dont think Talisman is a fair thing.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

It would be nice if RTs would loose some kind of divine energy with every combat/combat turn/fired weapon/whatever. With the next use it would have a chance of 99%, 98% and so forth. The divine energy could be reloaded at a Fate Shrine in a similar way as with ship training facilities, percent-wise.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Yeah, that 100% hit rate is kind of unfair. How about if instead it just worked like a really high level combat sensor that adds a big percentage but can never result in a hit percentage higher than 99%?

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

How about it gives +50% to hit? It would stack with combat senors, and 50 isn't a ludicrous amount. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

The talisman is the ONLY reason to get Religious Trait.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Well, the religious shrines are nice, too. Especially the Nature Shrine, which increases the value and condition of all the planets in the system. But do you know if all the other shrines work? Like the one that's supposed to reduce bad events or protect against intelligence operations or something, does it do what it's supposed to?

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Except for the Nature Shrine and maybe the Time Shrines all the other shrines are minimally useful and the fate shrine is a joke. Merely gutting the Talisman will make people simply not choose religious as a trait and probably religate it to the "lucky" Category of traits.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

I think the War Shrine is good, because it lets you add combat bonuses no one else can get. That is, if you weren't counting on Talisman to make you 100% accurate anyway. Death Shrine is worth building too, but not worth a lot of racial points, though it does mean you can do more damage than anyone else with the same weapons. I'd prefer Death Shrine to Nature Shrine, if I had to choose, because Nature Shrine's effect is so slow. In fact, I think you probably should have to choose, since Nature Shrine and Death Shrine wouldn't necessarily be provided by all religions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Without the Talisman, I think Religious would be worth less, though - no more than 1000 points. With it, it is probably worth more, except that smart players are liable to try to wipe you out before you develop it.

PvK

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

The War Shrine and Death Shrine only give you a boost IF you are fighting in the system they are built in, which would be in your territory, and if you are fighting battles in your territory, you are probably losing anyway.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Personally I don't have as much of a problem with Tailsman as I used to. In principle it's quite devastating, but in practice it never quite seems to work out as planned.

That being said I will have to agree with those that believe the Tailsman is really the only reason to go with the religious race. As Gandalph correctly points out the death shrine is a defensive facility. You only get the bonuses when the enemy is attacking you. And if the enemy captures your planets intact he then gets the bonus against all later ship combat in that sector. Not good IMHO.

I guess it would be allright if someone wanted to replace the never miss Tailsman with one that gave big bonuses to combat but still allowed for a chance of a miss instead. And then you could have different levels of Tailsman with increasing accuracy.

Didn't someone do a mod replacing the Tailsman with a mount? Using the mount for the weapon didn't change the size or damage, but increased the accuracy and cost? Seems like I remember that being talked about.

Geoschmo

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the Temporal trait has a facility similar to the war shrine; I forget the name, but it provides offense & defense bonuses within the system. The death shrine is unique - the only one I know of that provides damage bonuses.

That gives me an idea; maybe the talisman should be changed so that rather than "always hit", it's a fairly large (stackable) bonus, plus a damage bonus? At least that would provide more options for properly balancing the trait.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh. I was posting my response the same time you were; maybe a combination of our ideas would work:

Change Talisman to a mount (or series of mounts), providing accuracy and damage bonuses, for increased cost and size. Increased size & cost to make up for the fact that it's no longer a separate 50kT component, and damage bonus to make up for the fact that (IIRC) you can only have 1 mount on a given weapon; which means you'd either have a Talisman-mounted weapon or a "Huge"-mounted weapon (or whatever)...

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Tne Time Shrine Rocks!!! It is a great Early Game advantage.
Boosts a whole system by 15% for less research and build cost than a system robotoid facility level 2.

Nature shrine is unique, 1 facility to improve a whole system. Great Late Game bonus for those really long games in a huge galaxy, if you build them early enough.

The War and Death shrines are OK, but they normally are not where you really need them. The facility slots could be put to better use. In the early game a 15% combat bonus is helpfull.

The Fate shrine saves the cost of researching Urban Pacification facilities. I heard the reduced chances for bad events actually works now? If so, avoiding a star explosion or deadly intel sounds worthwhile.

Yes, the Religous race trait needs a talisman. Maybe at a reduced bonus and reduced size.

Please fix the poor Crystaline race first!!!

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Tsaarx: The Temporal Tech field has the 'Events Predictor' which gives attack/defense bonuses but not damage bonuses.

The Talisman debate seems to kick up again every so often. How about making the Talisman have balancing DIS-advantages like a major defense penalty? Say it gives off a lot of radiation and makes your ship easier to track, for example. Also, give it the Armor ability, since it seems logical that it would have to be 'outside' the ship to work. This makes it easier to destroy with normal weapons, although this also makes it immune to armor-skipping weapons.

We've discussed it in the beta forums and there are several options on the table for reducing its power.

First, you could simple make it work only every X combat rounds instead of continuously. If it works only every the 2nd round or every 3rd round then it's going to be far less unbalancing.

Another option is to give it a strictly limited number of 'charges' to be used in one combat engagement. You should have to click a button somewhere to 'use Talisman' and then your shots for that round would be 100 percent accurate but one charge would be used. Set the limit at maybe 5 and it would be much less powerful. Having to click the button for many ships in a combat would be a pain in the butt, of course, and the AI would have yet another complicated factor to manage.

Finally, you could make it work only with a specific weapon, a special weapon which would be included in the Religious tech. This weapon would be less powerful than standard weapons or have some other disadvantage.

[ January 07, 2003, 16:01: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm sure more people have done it, but what I did was make a talisman mount that added 20% size, +999% accuracy, and no damage. I then bumped up the size of the regular talisman to 150kt.

So you can either use regular weapons for greater power per shot, or you can use talisman mounts to ensure every shot hits.

Whether it is worthwhile or not may depend on how much ECM the enemy is carrying, the sensor tech of the religious race, and the strategies they are employing.

For small ships, the mounts will be best, and for larger ships the 150kt talisman will eventually outdo the mount.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Everyone keeps talking about how powerful the Talisman is, but it has been a while since I've seen a religious player win in PBW - which tells me that it is really not all that unbalanced after all.

I don't play against the AI, but if you think it's unbalanced there don't choose religious against the AI.

I suppose in on one on one game religious could be devastating, but IMO that isn't the way SE was meant to be played, but I guess that's another discussion.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

If the Talisman were removed, and no other "goodies" put in it's place, I would call Religious only a 1000-cost trait at best.

Here's a thought for reqorking Religious, as it appears in stock SE4:

No Talisman. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Additional levels of the Shrines (4 to 6), allowing up to 2x the effect, for proportionately increasing costs. As it is, the War shrine is made pointless by the Talisman, and the Time shrine is only half as good as the System Robotoid.

Add in planet-only Versions of the shrines, as appropriate; perhaps call the Planetary ones "Shrines" and the System-wide Versions "Temples" ... ? Thus, the Religious player could forgo the entire Robotoid/System Robotoid line of research,a nd use Shrines and Temples of the Time variety.

Add religious-based training facilities -- with a slightly higher cap, say 25%.

That, to me, would be worth most or all of 1500 racial points. However, note that there would then be NO ship-based components at all.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

What about replacing the Talisman with component sized Version of some of the shrines? For example, a ship could be outfitted with a war talisman, or a death talisman. This would also solve the problem of many of their most useful shrine abilities only being available on the defensive.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

i think it is fine the way it is. If you want to change it mod it....

If you cannot beat the talisman then you have to change your set up....

In Dim 2x I went from being beaten by the talisman all game long to winning every battle against the talisman fleets. All it took was an adjustment of ships.

Here is a hint. Keep your fleets together when fighting the talisman player.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

I think the War Shrine is very valuable, and I also think it is more interesting as a facility than as a component. Having a 15% two-way combat bonus that no one else (except Temporal) can match, for no maintenance and no ship space used is very powerful. Limiting to facilities is an interesting limitation, and creates interesting tactics as and against religious empires. It tends to be overshadowed by the talisman in unmodded games, but it's not useless even then. Unless, of course, your play style doesn't include using it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

BTW, does War Shrine stack with Events Predictor?

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

In the hands of an experienced player the Talisman can be very tough. A solution I propose (and very easy to implement) is make the cost of the Talisman higher about 5000 for minerals, organics, and radioactives may be just right. I would say that in a developed game the talisman is almost indestructable.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

I think the Talisman is fine as it is. I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus. Making the Talisman a 99% to hit modifier would make researching the talisman pointless since you can get the training and sensor bonuses for about half the cost of researching the talisman.

I do like the idea of replacing the Talisman with War and Death Talismans and making new levels of the religious tech. Consider War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate SHRINES as planetary effect facils I-II(Religious Tech 1-3) and War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate TEMPLES as system effect facils I-III(Religious Tech 4-6) With War and Death Talismans of three seperate levels made vaialbe at levels 4-6 of Religious Tech. I think that would be an excellent MOD idea, but the Talisman as is is just fine for the stock game. The sheer size of the Talisman in comparison to ECM and Combat Sensors means that most people will use the Talisman WITHOUT ECM or stealth armour and thus have a much lower defense bonus, or they will be forced to trade off a weapon or two to keep the defense bonuses. Either way, the Talisman is not an unbalanced tech, it's fine the way it is.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can get much more defensive bonus than offensive bonus. Something like 40% more (IIRC). So, that 105 bonus to hit (ignoring weapon bonuses) is nullified and overwhelmed by defensive bonuses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Some people's problem with the Talisman is that it gives a 100% guarantee. Nothing should be 100% guaranteed.

[ January 08, 2003, 01:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is written as if you don't understand how to-hit chances are calculated. If the Talisman were given any bonus, it would be a higher bonus than any non-religious race could achieve, because it is a unique type of component. Offensive and defensive bonuses stack and counter each other, and with the ordinary techs, they balance each other out so that it gets difficult to hit other maxed-out ships without closing to close range, if you can. Meanwhile, unmodded Talisman ships are hitting 100% of the time, probably from range 8, and then moving away at full speed. Even a 10-15% to-hit advantage would make the Talisman worth installing in late-game ship designs.

PvK

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

The Talisman may be unbalanced on its own, but it counter-balances the Religious tech line, which offers nothing in the way of weapons and a fairly small set of bonuses through the shrines. The current size of the talisman very often makes it an early casualty in combat, generally reducing that warship to a non-entity in a battle.

I do like what has been mentioned as new ways of developing ship-based War and Death talisman additions, but I might add one more...a Fate talisman. One that would not only decrease the chances of sabotage against a ship (if that really works for the shrines) but would enhance the defense bonus of a religious ship. While it can be argued that the lack of Religous weapons is a bonus rather than weakness to the Deeply Religious tech, having some kind of shipboard Religious items is a necessary piece to fleshing out this line. Or if a component or shrine could be developed that would automatically, if minimally, damaged enemy ships (in a system or in combat).

Even without the Talisman, I like Religious technology. Perhaps my favorite item is the Nature Shrine. Seeing my resource planets jump 3% every year (particularly when they are large or huge in size, although I really have never seen an improvement in climate), and having those values exceed the 100% mark, makes this shrine valuable in my eyes, and fun to play this technology.

Each special technology has some particular aspect that makes it fun to play or scary to face, that "unknown" factor that makes them just that much different. Crystal has the armor-skipping weapons and the maintenance-reduction facilities. Organic has regenerating armor and the fast production of organic ships. Temporal has the yards and the quad damage to shields weapon. Psychic has the allegiance subverter and the training facilities. The Talisman definitely is that for the Deeply Religious Tech, and if it is removed or modified it must be replaced by something very daunting for an opponent.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

BUMP! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quoting my own post..... there has GOT to be a rule against that....

OK, what values would one assign to a WAR Talisman? How about a Death Talisman? Also one level of this(just War Talisman, Death Talisman) or THREE.(War Talisman I, Death Talisman I - War Talisman II, Death Talisman II - War Talisman III, Death Talisman III)
I'm working on modding this now so I want input from anyone who is willing to give it.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

There has got to be a rule against what?

Unmodded Talisman is 50kT but makes combat sensors redundant (10kT). 40kT less space is not much of a disadvantage in a BC or BB, compared to guaranteed hits. They are very powerful, and IMO only balanced by preemptive/gang strikes from human players.

I don't know if it's actually possible to mod a "death talisman" component, although it could be a mount.

A "war talisman" would I suppose just be a weaker Version of an always-hitting talisman. Personally, I like what I did in Proportions, which was to have talismans start out offering small but unique (and therefore, quite important) bonuses, which increase with further research but also start to get big and expensive, and finally after a really huge amount of research (especially in Proportions where research doesn't multiply linearly with number of colonies), an all-hitting talisman, and after even more research, a more efficient one.

PvK

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That sounds very 'doo-able' except can you make mounts that require a specific tech or tech area?

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

Problem: You can only use ONE mount at a time. If you use a 'special' mount you can't use the standard mount at the same time. I hope MM will fix this in SE V so you can have many modifications of a weapon just like in MOO II.

I still recommend that the Talisman be given a negative defense modifier, and maybe event the armor ability so it will tend to get hit earlier.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

I like it the way it is.

So Yes.

And Yea I do not play Religious very often.... Just once in a while to change it up a bit.

Re: does religious *need* the talisman?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That sounds very 'doo-able' except can you make mounts that require a specific tech or tech area?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, as of the Last public patch!

PvK