PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

'Kay, see it comes up once and a while. No one seems to have a specific beef -- but a nondescript problem. I made an entry in the Encyclopedia Malfadorica here:

Maybe people can add to it there or post some things here.

(or edit my entry over there completely so it's more clear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

[ January 10, 2003, 15:17: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

I have to say I'm not fully in agreement with the tech sharing article. I am opposed to the use of any exploits or gamey tactics in multiplayer games with ppl who object to them, but I don't think tech sharing is either of those things; it's just a logical way of optimising your output with a neighbour. I'd be interested to see what everyone else thinks.

[ January 10, 2003, 16:29: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

I hadn't even reflected on it being in anyway "bad". I assumed all partnerships used tech sharing.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

I didn't know "turtling" was anything common.
I had thought of doing it in a game where I'm hard pressed, to rebuild my fleet and then burst out of the shell consuming the galaxy in flames. But I think it will be too expensive so I won't be able to "turtle!" before I'm totally destroyed by my angry neighbour.

Hmm, I've used one and thought of using the other "exploit". It seems I'm a evil player using evil ethical standards! (And here I thought I was the good guy!!)

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Ruatha: The thing about these "exploits" & "cheats" is that it very much depends who you're playing against. Some ppl might not mind tech sharing (I don't- I also practise it) or turtling (it would be very credible in rp games like the history of the galaxy for example). It just depends who you're up against. Maybe some of these malfadorica entries need to be altered to reflect that.

BTW, I was the one who added the turtling entry.

[ January 10, 2003, 16:30: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

I have no problem with tech sharing in principle. I don't consider it cheating or gamey or unbelievable. It's just boring. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It speeds the game up to the inevitable end game too fast IMHO. But then some people like that.

In my ideal universe noone would trade tech, and that is why we pressed Malfador for the option to disallow it at game setup. So that it can be disabled.

I prefer that the results of the game depend on my own strategy and tactics, not of the neighbors that I happen to start next to. If you happen to be starting next to Dogscoff who loves to trade tech you are going to have a huge advantage over the guy who happens to start next to me. You and the other guy could be completely equal in skill, and even in the political side of it, but if you are next to a old fuddy duddy like me that doesn't want to trade you won't be able to until you meet some others.

Geoschmo

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it won't be that huge an advantage because I suck at multiplayer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it won't be that huge an advantage because I suck at multiplayer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I didn't say you would have an advatage. I said the guy starting next to you sponging tech off of you would have the advantage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 10, 2003, 16:56: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it won't be that huge an advantage because I suck at multiplayer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I didn't say you would have an advatage. I said the guy starting next to you sponging tech off of you would have the advantage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh-oh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is not an objection of mine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

You want to talk about ethics at PBW huh? Well lets just say that those who know the exploits use them to their advantage. The EB exploit being the most popular. Then the TDB weapon bug, and let us not forget about those who have hacked the game.

I gave up playing PBW games back in September after being told that a player in a game I was in was using the EB exploit. Sure as ****, he was, and that just ruined the game. But instead of making big deal about it, I said nothing. Now that I know how to do it, I feel that if I play, I would be tempted to use it, so I don’t play. I’ll wait for the bug to be fixed.

Ethics, an ethical person would not use a known exploit -or- as I like to refer to them, a cheat. Not that I am accusing any one, it is just that there is no reason to play a game with people who do not have ethics.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Yea the EB is a bad one. Trading planets every 8 turns is not a good one. But it takes two players. Other than that it all depends on the flavour of the game. If your in doubt ask the game admin.

One PBW ethic i do not like is the sneak attack when you attack the planets and declare war the same turn... And by pass mines.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

There is a differance between ethics and tactics. That is a tactic to bypass the mines. I don't like it, but I'd do it if I felt it was needed to gain the upper hand. (Damn, I wish they would install and evil smily face.) :

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

The EB thing seems to to bothersome, trading planets.. I mean, my population wouldn't think fondly of me if I gave them away every now and then! And to keep track of which planet to trade and when. That exploit I consider a bug.

I agree though with Geo that it would be more fun without tech sharing, in a game I use it profoundly as all other partnerships seems to do it aswell. Otherwise I'd be hopelessly left behind.
The Homecoming 2 game that is about to start seems to be fun as it doesn't allow that or science treaties.

Btw, everyone is ethical, no one is without ethics! It's just that the ethics differs, what you might find as bad ethics someone else finds acceptable, that doesn't mean they don't have any ethics.

[ January 10, 2003, 18:21: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

EB

?

???

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

EB is an ackernim for an exploit. Many of us have been asked not to spread it around. So I will not go into detail about it. Lets just say that it has been around for a long while, and if used would allow a player an unfair advantage.

Most players do not use it, and when they do, you'll know about it. Trust me.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

I agree with Geo that allowing tech trades is a bore. I wont play in games which allow it any more since they just produce a mad rush to the endgame with everyone having the same techs. The one game I play in also dissallows trading of pop so that you actually have to capture some enemy to get different breathers. I like this too.

The trouble with the ethics proponants is that they dont seem to realize that what may be unethical to them is just a game exploit to others. Then someone gets called a cheat becuase they don't conform to the ethics proponants view of what is wrong and right, then everyone gets mad or upset, then the game is spolied. This has happened to me on numerous occasions. I only now play with a known group of guys. It is intense and cutthroat but there is no name calling and character sluring. I have found that the easiest resolution is for the game host to clearly state which features/expolits/whatever of the game are not allowed, and that everything is fair game.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This needs to be removed/editted ASAP. Only some people look badly upon sharing technologies. Most people I have played with have not been opposed to it.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This needs to be removed/editted ASAP. Only some people look badly upon sharing technologies. Most people I have played with have not been opposed to it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was written by someone else, Skulky I believe. He called it Tech trading. I wanted the tech trading entry to have more useful information, like how you can't trade tech without the theoretical tech,etc. So I made up the term Tech sharing and copied his text over.

I really have to agree with Geo, all it does is make the inevitable happen sooner.

Yeesh, what a can of worms I opened. And I only mentioned it because it's a topic that comes up on this board from time to time.

Oh, thanks for the EB explanation Rautha, I had heard of it before.

[ January 10, 2003, 20:17: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm . . . Why is turtling "gamey" - that's the whole point of having warp closers and system shields otherwise spending all those resources in research and building would be pointless.

I think that tactics that are used that aren't taking advantage of bugs are perfectly valid unless there is a rule in the specific game against them.

I've been backstabbed, been turtled against, and had people gang up against me by trading techs, etc. and I may have been pissed off about it, but I never thought it was cheating. It sounds like sour grapes to me when players want rules patched out because they get beat using their pet playing style when playing against humans.

BTW: What's this mysterious EB bug?

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

The EB thing seems to to bothersome, trading planets.. I mean, my population wouldn't think fondly of me if I gave them away every now and then! And to keep track of which planet to trade and when. That exploit I consider a bug"

It has been reported, right? I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about, and such a thing can't be fixed if not reported..

Phoenix-D

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm . . . Why is turtling "gamey" - that's the whole point of having warp closers and system shields otherwise spending all those resources in research and building would be pointless.

I think that tactics that are used that aren't taking advantage of bugs are perfectly valid unless there is a rule in the specific game against them.

I've been backstabbed, been turtled against, and had people gang up against me by trading techs, etc. and I may have been pissed off about it, but I never thought it was cheating. It sounds like sour grapes to me when players want rules patched out because they get beat using their pet playing style when playing against humans.

BTW: What's this mysterious EB bug?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Turtling is probably just annoying, once every 2 days you log on to PBW, download a game file, fire up SE4, enter your password and ... anything today? ...No?...oh well, fill the carriers with some more fighters and hit F12...someday...someday

A little defenciveness is no problem. You can use the warp point closers to make choke points, you can use openers to bypass natural or synthetic choke points.

I can relate to suddenly finding a favorite tactic of yours is an exploit -- I liked opening warp points in the same or next system. I was sort of building a hyperspace bypass system for my 8 movement baseships. Can't do that anymore.

EB bug, don't know why everyone is being secretive. It was posted here. See the Encyclopedia Malfadorica *Click* for a little hint.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Let me put it this way about using exploits.

A former friend used to love to win, he would do anything to win. When he started to loose, he started to cheating. He liked this, as loosing made him feel bad. Once I discovered he was using a cheat, I started. This sparked a massive debate about ethics. It was ethical for him to cheat because he liked to win, but not ethical for me because I could win without cheating. I never understood his arguement, and stopped playing games with him. Eventually, our friendship ended because of his "Win at all cost" attitude.

So Gravey, if you think it is ok to use an exploit when no one else knows about it, then yes that is cheating. However since you never did this, you have nothing to worry about.

I would like to point out that as long as a cheater can get away with it, they will. People who cheat or violate the game rules don't like the heat that comes with getting cought. They often scamper away, and start a counter argument about why reporting cheaters is bad.

[ January 10, 2003, 21:04: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

"I can relate to suddenly finding a favorite tactic of yours is an exploit -- I liked opening warp points in the same or next system. I was sort of building a hyperspace bypass system for my 8 movement baseships. Can't do that anymore."

This isn't an exploit. Well, to the same system I would say it, but not to the next system over. And certainly not to building a more efficent warp network!

Phoenix-D

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, well, MM made it so you can't do it anymore, so I guess it is an exploit, innit?

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Banning tech trades and population trades is not as easy as it sounds. The menu check box "No Tech Trades" does not prevent trading ships or planets. There should also be a N0 TRADES box.

Having weaker neighbors to early on (capturing pop and colonizers) can unbalance the game.

Limited warfare can be used to capture population and ships. But.. If there is little risk due to prior agreements, then it is wrong for a no (tech) trade game.

[ January 10, 2003, 21:27: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Really? How would they do that?

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>So Gravey, if you think it is ok to use an >exploit when no one else knows about it, then >yes that is cheating.

I have heard this argument time and time again. Who are you to decree what is an exploit and what isn't? The only person who can decide is the game host for the game your are playing. He decides the rules of the game, including whether any of the currently known bugs are ok or not. If you break those rules it is cheating. If you dont then it isn't. Simple as that. If you dont like his decision as to what is ok and what isn't you play something else or start your own game or whatever. What you don't do is lable evryone else who doesn't conform to your view as a cheater.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

and please dont bother with the mythical exploit that only 1 person knows about. The bugs in SEIV very quickly become public knowledge.

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Ok guys... that game is over. There is no need to continue arguing about it here on Shrapnel.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

But but but... he started it.

In any case. WE're not aguing about _that_ game at least to my knowledge. I'm just arguing about something I feel strongly about.

[ January 10, 2003, 21:45: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

"Yeah, well, MM made it so you can't do it anymore, so I guess it is an exploit, innit?"

You can still open warp points to adjactant systems, and it's still quite possible to build a more efficent warp network..so no.

Phoenix-D

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Bug exploits are bad though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I tend to include a clause whereby all known bug exploits are Banned in my games. Then, I add new ones to the list as I find out about them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Right, and that's the only way to do it IMO. I woudn't play in a game again where the host didnt do that. Cuts out all the subjectiveness and leaves the nastiness and insults to the battlefield where they should be.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gee THANKS from all the No0Bi3z. thats like saying
"Your in danger!"
"how so?"
"not telling"
"WHY?"
"Well, when you cut your thumb off, you will know why. Trust me"

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

couslee, it's not a matter of keeping something secret so it can be used against newbies. Bugs are often not discussed openly in the forums until they are patched out to keep unethical people from becoming aware of them and exploiting them.

It's not to keep it secret from you, it's to keep it from being used against you.

Geoschmo

[ January 10, 2003, 23:02: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

well spoken geo.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

As far as I am concerned all 'exploits' in PBW should be allowed unless explicitly Banned by the host. (now before you flame me please finish reading). Because who's to say what an exploit is or what is just a good legal strategy? I read an old post were a certain racial characteristic combination was called an exploit?? WTF?? As far as I am concerned if the game lets you do it it is legal. I do not know what the EB exploit is but I think I know what the TDM one is (and No I would not use this because it is an obvious bug) BUT If I happen to be a player who does not read these forms and use the TDM weapon I would be seriously pissed if I got accused of cheating. And what about non obvious bugs? Say I'm playing pre ver 1.78 (and again don't follow this forum closely) and discover that I can launch mines as long as less than 100 were in orbit. Shall I be considered unethical or a cheater if I do so? Heck I once got accused of cheating for picking the Ancient Race trait.

IMHO the bottom line is that if an 'exploit' is considered unethical it should be made clear by the host prior to the start of a PBW game. And although I can understand why keeping exploits a secret is desirable by some I think they should be made public so we could agree to ban them or at least know when they've been used against us and if allowed in the future to defend against them.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Dg... no flames from me.

It is up to the game admin to make sure exploits / or unfair stuff do not happen.

The 8 turn Emergancy Build and trade the planets one is hard to catch. I am hoping that it is corrected in the next patch which i hear may or may not come out before MOO3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The mothball one was removed... which is good.

The TDM one is up to the game admin.
As there are patches to deal with it or a gentle mans agreement.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

I find this an interesting thread. I really think there are few outright cheats in this game. And they all involve hacking.
I do know one player that has a list of folks he will play and not play with. I think that is a very good Idea. I also get the impression that as a community we have managed to keep it fairly clean. My hat is off to all of us.
Exploiting the internal mechanics of the game is a much slippery issue. knowingly using an obvious bug that gives an unfair advantage should get you on the blacklist. But trading for tech, forming alliances, and the Sneak attack are all valid 'choices'.
Any one want to start a poll? On what is gamey or not gamey?
For instance
Multiple ship training faclities on several planets to reduce your training time. Gamey? or not gamey?

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

What is this term Gamey? Never heard of it before, it seems to be bad?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well... the facilities do say "One Per Planet effective", and not "One Per Sector". So, there is no reason why you can't have more than one working in a sector on different planets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I do not know if this was intentional or not on the part of MM, but that is how it is IMHO. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Define "gamey"...

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Issue is not that the game allows it. The issue is if it is gamey or not. Grin and I feel what gamey is just have a hard time explaining it.

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I will take a stab at it.

How about: you would be not to do this in the real SEIV Universe but in the SEIV game you do it to get an advantage.

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is astart, but in some cases you have to be able to define what could or could not be done in a hypothetical "SEIV universe". Some things in the game are limitations for game play reasons, not any kind of "laws of the alternate universe" reasons.

Training facilities on moons are one of these. The mines per sector thing is another.

Basically a lot of these are subjective, there is no way around it. "I don't know art, but I know what I like". So the idea of playing with a core group of players you know and are comfortable with is a good idea if these things bother you a lot. Of course that can make it more difficult for new players to get a game, but eventually they will get enough people to give them a chance, and then they can earn a good reputation.

Geoschmo

Re: PBW ethics, opinions please.
 

Good explanation, I can see that 100 mines per sector would be impossible in the SE IV universe due to the mines setting eachother off, etc.
So I think that was a good explanation, if it's the true on I don't kbnow as I hadn't heard of it before.

[ January 11, 2003, 00:07: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, except that two empires can launch 100 miunes each in the same sector. This has always been allowed and I have never heard anyone complain about it. This fact alone is enough to demonstarte that the 100 mines per sector is not intended to be a realistic universe limit. It's a game thing to prevent people from putting thousands of mines up and bringing the game to a halt. You don't have to have an explanation for it that makes sense other than that.

Geoschmo

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Just bring enough to sweep 200 mines then. A little redundancy won't kill you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Realism can be a poor measure to use to decide what you can and can't do in a game - especially for fantasy and sci-fi, since you can use magic or "high-tech" to explain most anything.