Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

I know this question's been asked a million times before and it's probably in the Newbie FAQ, but I forgot the answer and the search engine on this forum really sucks...

So, in what order do ships fire in simultaneous combat? Does the player who got added to the game first still get to shoot first? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

In Gold, the defender goes first in combat. If there are multiple defenders or attackers, then the order that they go is randomly determined. ed: If A attacks both B and C in a sector, then the movement order could be B, C, A or it could be C, B, A.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

True 'nuf Imperator. But what defines defender?

It may be random when two fleets cross, but not really.

It seems like at warp points, whoever was there first goes first, but I've seen that not be the case once and a while.

What about planet attacks - who gets to launch fighters first? It doesn't really matter, but I am curious.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

Actually, it's not in the FAQ (Yet!)

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

efender is anyone that was in the sector already. Attacker is someone that just moved into the sector.

Or, if all parties were already in the sector, the Attacker is the one that issues the Attack order. In a Simultaneous game, I would assume that if both players give the attack order at the same time, the lower player number gets to be the attacker.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If A warps through and finds B already in the sector, B is the defender and A is the attacker. But if A warps through, and then B moves onto the sector in a later game day, B is the attacker and A is the defender.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The planet is generally on the defender side, unless the person owning the planet sends ships in to stop a blockade. Whoever moves first (the defender) is the one that gets to launch fighters first.

[ January 10, 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

Yeah, what if 2 fleets have intercept orders for each other? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then it depends on when they meet, and who is faster.

The lower numbered player's ships seem to move first in strategic movement, so maybe the lower numbered player becomes the attacker when both fleets are the same speed.

But, it gets fuzzy. If the fleets start an even number of sectors away, they can pass each other by, as they will both move into the next sector over on the same day. If they are an odd number apart, then they will meet.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

And I think I recall, that combat doesn't happen on every day of the month, that should complicate defender/attacker decision also.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

I know it is never me.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

It's always the evil guys playing the Xiati shipset (why does the Xiati shipset always win?) trying to wipe out all other races who go first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because that's Askan Nightbringer's preferred shipset.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

Askan Nightbringer? Never heard of him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Oh, and is it the case that whichever side goes first, all their ships get to shoot before the other side even gets one shot off? That's the way it seems, since all the battles in DimensionX 2 are rather lopsided! I guess so, since that's the way it is in tactical combat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif what a ripoff

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

ya, this is really bullsh*t imho...

for simul games, it really should be fastest speed ships first, IN ORDER, regardless of which side they are on...

that really is the only 'fair' way

and with wp's and bases going before anything, since they are stationary and meant to be defensive... IE to reflect better / bigger ground based sensors, computers and all that jazz

anyone have any idea of how hard it would be get truly mixed ship combat in simul games?

using ship speed as the only factor in initiative?

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

actually i'm gonna bump this cuz its the single biggest issue with large fleet engagements and balance

as it stands now... people with the xiati shipset (maybe cuz its reverse order alphabetical?, no idea really) or people who are 'lucky' go first

having your WHOLE fleet go first is a HUGE unbalancing problem... (it wouldn't be if you forced fleets to start on opposite sides of the combat arena, but they OFTEN start together and close)

which means that first shot wins, even if you have better ships, and better shields and better guns... which of course is BS

who can we ask about making initiative solely based on ship speed? do any se4 programmer read these threads?

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

"do any se4 programmer read these threads?"

As far as I know there is only One programmer for SE4. Aaron himself. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure he is the only one.

I don't know how often he checks the forums; probably not very much though. As he is busy with patchs and his new project that is in the Alpha stages currently, he has been working on.

As I said I could be mistaken. If one of the Beta testers or someone else who knows for sure could say that'd help out alot.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

Hmmmmm

I would think that Aaron will at some point "fix" the unbalanced battle of one side being able to have all its ships fire before the other.
If and when Aaron does "fix" the movement/firing order of individual ships, the following factors could be taken into consideration:

1) The designated defender.
2) The Speed of the ship
3) The Experience of the ship.

They could be weighted equally in determining the movement/order or taken in order to break a deadlock between ships.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

good idea tbon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ultimate winner of the first SE IV "Survivor" tournament on Play-by-Web.

I can't recall the Last time I saw him post here.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

The firing in combat will not be changed in se4. It is way too late for that to happen. Maybe for se5 though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uhhh... no. Firing order is determined by who attacked who (ie who was in the sector already and who moved into it.)

The trouble with your suggestion of determining fire order based on ships speed is that in many, or even most confrontations, the two sides will all have ships of the same speed.

Finally, Aaron's latest project is reportedly some kind of advanced space combat engine, which may well make it into SE5. Hopefully that will solve all your problems.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

Gryphin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I like your ideas.

Undiscovered cloaked ships should of course fire first.

Then both sides can fire with the damage being held till all the ships have fired. A good solution to the problem at hand.

Or wee could combine our two ideas:

1) Undiscovered cloaked ships fire first.
2) Designated defenders fire next
3) Then faster ships
4) Then the more experienced ship
5) Any remaining ships all fire at once with the damage being held till all have fired.

OR

1) Undiscovered cloaked ships fire first.
2) The following are weighted (maybe allowed to be modded) to determine the firing order.
-a) Designated defender.
-b) Ship Speed
-c) Experience of ship
3) If the two opponents ships are equal, then both types of ships fire at once with the damage being held till all their weapons have fired.
4) Back to 2) until all ships have fired.

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

whats the combat engine that aaron is working on?

anyway we can get him to fill us in?
something really needs to be done about who fires first in combat, currently, it makes the game more like flipping a coin and praying, as opposed to using tactics and designs to win

info please?

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

In terms of "fair" or ballenced:
Borrowing a game mechanic from most of the tactical miniature games where the "time scale" was very small,
Side *A* fires, hits, and knocks out side *B*.
If side *A* was hidden then only surviving side *B* elements get to return fire.
If both sides could see each other at the begining of the fire phase then any damage done was put "on hold" untill the endi of the combat round.
So,
Phase 1: Gryphin's BattleCruiser destroys a Pooh Star Light Cruiser
Phase 2: The Pooh Star Light Cruiser can still unleash its weapons on a happless Gryphin Escort, (or anyother ship including the offending BC).
Then the Pooh Star Light Cruiser blows up and Pooh screams out some unprintable threat.
This would require a huge amount of hard code change.

[ January 14, 2003, 12:48: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

Re: Firing order - which empire goes first?
 

New combat engine: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...648;p=5#000065

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What Version of se4 are you using? Combat order in the latest Gold patch is defined according to attacker/ defender. It's not an ideal system but it is by no means random.

[ January 15, 2003, 11:13: Message edited by: dogscoff ]