Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

You can get intel points without intel facilities, you just need to be in a partnership or MA with someone who has intel facilities.

Oh, and if you become a superpower, the AI *will* all turn on you, unless you have switched off the Mega Evil Empire option.

And I do find such small treaties beneficial, even with neutrals. the extra resources aren't much, but can be helpful, and I like to play the nice guy. Besides all that, allies improve your economy by not draining it: If you're not at war with someone, that's one less border to build warships and defences for.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you can keep them at war with your enemy, using the intell communications mimic, and keep them friendly with you, which is a challange, you have a fun role-play situation.

[ January 15, 2003, 14:21: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

How do you switch off the "mega evil empire" option?

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course, the treatys have a variety of uses for multiplayer -- I just started a play-by-web and found that I'm subjugated -- and I don't know why. I'll role play this for a little while, but I may have to prepare a lesson for those imperialist dogs

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

Open the file data/settings.txt with notepad, and change

AI Uses Mega Evil Empire := True

to false.

Everything you ever needed to know about Mega Evil Empire

[ January 15, 2003, 14:29: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

That's what I needed to know. Thanks!

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's how I make treaties....
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

I appreciate the role-playing aspects, and do so to an extent. After reading about the MEE, I can appreciate that it is in the game. My main concern, was these two peacefull empires would use the benefits of my trade alliance to build a war machine to attack me. IRL, that is not going to happen. Using them as puppet attackers is a good idea, that way they can expand>>>>>> the other direction and irritate the other races. As I said before, in any of the other 4x games I have played, the AI views you as a MEE all the time, which is just silly. It would be like Togo (no offence to any Togoniese) saying they were going to take their one crop duster and attack the evil American empire..... and expect to have any other result than a good arse-wuppin. (just ask afganistan). The sad part, is the lack of coordination with the AIs. from what I read tho, ALL the AIs AT ONCE declare the war, which is fine. by the time I reach that point, the game will need something to make the mop-up more fun. The peck here, peck there is not a challange nor fun. There have been countless games of civ/smac that never got finished because of that, but if ALL the factions declared war at once, I might have been quite challanged.

I tried in other games to play the good guy super power, where I have even given fully developed cities/bases to help out the little guy, but they always turned out to be ingrates after a short period.

If you pass the MEE threshold, do "partnership" treaties also get canceled? I don't think they should, just as they should not be able to be canceled for any other reason. Deadlock2 was that way, a victory pact could not be canceled or brokien, and it had an impact on your final score. (shared points) If that is not the case here, I would like to see it in SEV or in the next upgrade/patch.

I hadn't thought of getting intel points from a treaty prior to being able to build the facilities. That certainly would explain why CI1 is there. kewl

Treaties..... whats the point?
 

In my current game, I have met a number of races, 3 of which have survived. One is fairly large, and we are locking horns at every turn. No problem. There are two other minor races than didn't think their tiny empire could take on mine and are still around. One has one system and five planets, the other has one system and three planets. They keep wanting to establish a trade alliance with my 15 system 32 planet empire. Now, what could they possibly offer that would make me agree to that? Their production is a widow's mite compared to mine. Certainly, getting a percentage of my production would be a big boon for them, and quite possible enough to make them a threat later on. I have no desire to provide the means for them to attack me. And the production percentage I would get from them is trivial. yes, I get a happiness boost the turn I sign a treaty, but nothing after that. So, what the point?

And as for treaties with races that are comperable in size, that may be good to avoid a two front war, but I am sure eventualy things will go sour. All part of the conquest game genre'.

I feel like responding to this little empire, sure, I will trade with you. I will give you a lesson in abject humility, and you give me your planets.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

Depends on your play style. Some ppl like to play the role of a more benevolent superpower who would like to help the little guy out.

Also, there may be strategic advantages: Getting a military alliance or partnership with one of them might extend your range (using their resupply depots) or give you valuable information (enemy ships designs, views of systems you have no presence in).

The thing is, you're right. Playing to win against the AI and stomping them all into the ground really isn't that hard once you've played a few games, so you have to either:
a> start playing multiplayer
b> give the AI a chance (refrain from using certain techs, refrain from trading with the AI, disadvantage yourself at game setup)
c> Play not to win, but for the joy of playing. (usually involves some degree of roleplaying)
d> move onto some other game
e> mod your own game out of SEIV.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

The point is to not have to fight your way through thier system. Depending on your race it will gain happynesspoints for making a treaty.
Most lilkly they are Neutrals so you don't have to worry about them expanding.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

Say, has anyone been able to get an AI to accept Subjugation or Protectorate treaties?

I like to play GoodGuy-SuperPower, but always have those one or two neighbors that are hostile but weak. I'd prefer more of my wars to end with Subjugation, and less with their Surrender.

Prophet

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

I take it "neutrals" are the ones with the more generic flags, without design? If that is the case, the first two races I met were blantant idiots, as they started attacking me from the git and now serve my empire on methane worlds i wish to colonize. And they had generic flag types.

The intel might make it worth it, like your said, IF they don't have end game designs of their own expansion into my territory. One of them might have info, the other is isolated. And as for "having to fight my way through their system", what do I do on turn two? lol

I agree stomping the AI is no great claim (in this, or any other game). I was just wondering if others found treaties with much smaller races of any benefit at all. I know in Civ games and such, the AI races/factions/ect, in the end get mad and go to war with the super power, namely the human player. It is refreshing to hear that I won't have to eventually stomp thier butts
per the score:
Me/race1/race2
resources 88.1k/9.7k/9.6k
science 37.0/7.2/4.3

That is why I asked what the point is.

I have another whats the point question tho. What is the point of Counter-intelligence 1? It's on your list, but you can't do anything with it because you don't have any intel facilities. the advance that gives you Intel facilities, also gives you the much better counter-intel2. that imo is stupid design. If intel facilities were available right off the bat like reasearch facilities are, then CI1 would have a use. but it's not, so why even have it in the game? I would like to see intel facilities available at the begining, but in absence of that, move the counter-intel action down the line one slot. (and I am betting that can be modded, but I am not really one to mod)

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

In my game, I will give it a shot and see. i can always go back a turn. I decided to not bother with the one isolated race that would have to go through either myself, or the other little guy to get out of the corner. So I am just going to remove the distraction of them being there. I could try and get them to subjugate instead. will still probably re-load back, unless subjugates can't break that treaty even with MEE on. Might have to have a look at the Encl Malf again and see what it says about that treaty type.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

Acceptance of Protectorate and Subjugation are controlled just like Surrender. There is a specific setting in the ..._AI_Politics file. I forget what the default is, but you probably want to reduce it a bit for neutrals. I have used them successfully, but the AI seems to be much more prone to break these than other treaties.

As for intel, I have been toying with the idea of making some basic facility produce a few intel points. Space ports maybe? A space port would be a great place to post your intelligence officers so they could gather rumours and watch where people (err, beings?) and cargo were going. Or maybe the Urban Pacification Facility? If you take the Orwellian view of these as 'reprogramming' centers they could be auditing the personalities of your 'subjects' and reporting back on what they are finding. If one or the other of these produced 50 points or so you'd have a little bit to work with even before researching 'serious' intel techs. So as long as you only had counter-intel one and no other intel projects you'd only have intel defenses, supplied by these default sources.

[ January 16, 2003, 01:41: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

I like that idea of space ports producing some intel. Like Quark on DS9 always had some bit of info. Considering you only build one port per system, maybe 100 intel would be about right. 50 sounds low. would have to balance it and see.

edit:
the problem with UPCs, is they also are not available from the begining. I still havn't researched that tech tree. ports are a better idea imo

[ January 16, 2003, 02:36: Message edited by: couslee ]

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

Now, This is what I was talking about. I signed the trade alliance with the one race, their mood was "warm". A soon as I sign the trade they drop to moderate, and now the following turn they are dis-pleased. WTF!?? they should be leaping for frigging joy I signed the treaty and didn't crush them like a bug! Ingrate little mutha (explative)!

talk on the role-playing side of it, this is what irritates me about the game and treaties and whats the point. they get a warm mood, you sign a treaty with them and they get insulted I accepted their offer?

OK, so you wanna play rough? OK, say HELLO to my little friend.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is caused by the way the AI decides on its attitude towards you. There are seperate calculations done according to how many planets you own that the AI could use. When you are not in any treaty, or in non-intercourse or non-aggression treaties, you are an 'enemy', but once you are in a treaty above 'non-aggression' you are a 'friend' and different numbers are used to calculate attitude. Look at Default_AI_Settings:

Get Angry Over Allied Colonizable Planets := True
Get Angry Over Enemy Colonizable Planets := True
Percentage of Allied Planets to consider as Attack Locations for Anger := 5
Percentage of Enemy Planets to consider as Attack Locations for Anger := 5

If the numbers are different the AI will have a usually major attitude shift towards anyone that changes treaty status.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

I don't much care for treaties with the AI unless they give me resources, resupply or have multiple partnerships.

The problem is that the AI does not respond to requests properly, like requests to leave a system or attack a system or declare war. If it refuses nothing happens (obviously), but if it accepts it still does nothing because it doesn't know how to carry the request. THAT is what I really think needs to be in SEV, as it is treaties with the AI just have no believability/immersion factor.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

but it does not make sence the game would even be programmed that way. I first meet this race, and leave them to their own devices. The starting mood is always "moderate". Iafter a while of leaving them alone, their mood increases to warm, and they offer the trade alliance treaty. I accept, and this has a negative impact on their mood towards me? THATS stupid.

I agree on them not responding for unit removal ect. it should be in the game that any units in the system they agreed to vacate should be gone. "game magicly" gone, poof, instant teleport to the nearest planet of theirs not in that system. Same goes for planet populations. POOF, gone. it's a game. Program it right. otherwise you might as well not have those option in the game in the first place. options that don't work are considered bugs, and should be fixed in a patch, not the next Version, tho that would be the second choice. Allied planets for attack locations should not be there either. Of course I have planets that they would like, and visa-versa. I had those same planets when they were getting all warm and fuzzy. if they wanted those planets, they should have gone down in mood, not up.

Don't get me wrong here guys. i think it is a fun game, but there are things i find in it that are irrtating, and/or stupid. Just because I rant on one of those, does not mean I am going to uninstall the game and throw the CD at the next passing garbage truck. But I am the kind of person that if I think something is poorly programmed, I say so. Not to be offensive, but to let the developers know how one of their CUSTOMERS feels. It's like not being able to scrap obsolete WP. that is just plain stupid. What empire (game or real) would jettison valuable metals into space never to be seen again? None I say.

ok, enough ranting for a while, going back to the game for just one more turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

Get Angry Over Allied Colonizable Planets := True
Get Angry Over Enemy Colonizable Planets := False
Percentage of Allied Planets to consider as Attack Locations for Anger := 10
Percentage of Enemy Planets to consider as Attack Locations for Anger := 5

That is copied from the text file you mentioned. I really want to understand WHY the default settings are set to that. it seems backwards from the way it should be.

Now, one one hand, I am gratefull they designed the game using text file so that it is mod friendly. But on the other hand, I generally dislike haveing to mod a game to fix things that should not be a problem in the first place. It leaves me with the feeling "here's a game, you finish it, we can't be bothered. That'll be $49.95. paper or pLastic?"

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It might be a sci-fi game but it tries to be realisitic where possible. "magic" population transportation is silly and players would probably find a way to abuse it.

I've only used the demand to leave a planet once (and that was in the first game I played in the original SE4 demo) - the Phong did send a transport towards the planet in question but the game ended before I could see what they were going to do with it.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I admit it seems a little unlikely that planets in allied hands would cause more anger than those in enemy hands. I'm sure whoever wrote the AI file in question had a reason, though. Perhaps to make a race that will only keep treaties with races they are far superior to (they won't have many planets to cause anger), but on the other hand they won't get so angry with other races they declare war on them.

Of course, if you reverse the two values, you'll find it much harder to set up a treaty with them, but once you do they're much more likely to keep it.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Many people find diplomcy too weak and wish MM would work on it. MM still might, as time permits. I tend to vote indifferent on this subject -- you will always be able to outsmart the AI. It may be better to let it not work.

[ January 16, 2003, 16:15: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

I know what you're saying, couslee. I never understood why certain races hated me only when they were my ALLIES! Made no sense. It got to the point where I would have to ignore those races because I did not want to see-saw between treaties.

But it doesn't happen all the time. In my current game, I have 3 Partnerships, 1 Military Alliance, and 2 Trade Treaties.

I like to roleplay SE4. That makes AI Politics important. I'd like to see SOMEONE (MM or a modder) make a AI-Update Patch for the stock races.

Prophet

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

"I like to roleplay SE4. That makes AI Politics important. I'd like to see SOMEONE (MM or a modder) make a AI-Update Patch for the stock races."

TDM Modpack has several enchanced AI races. Playing a TDM game right now, and the Eee for example have been treaty partners for a long time and are still friendly. Then I went to war, they got pissed..now we're still at war but they're friendly again! (I haven't attacked in a while)

Oddly enough they haven't offered a peace treaty.

Phoenix-D

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you MEE? I thought it was ridiculous that aliens would be brotherly toward me but wouldn't make peace, until I found out it was because I was MEE.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

Perhaps the AI's you encoutered were Xenophobes? The Nuetrals I tend to encounter tend to be Neutral and Xenophobic, meaning they like to be left alone and not bothered. So it would make somewhat sense that they were warm to you since you hadn't contacted them or bothered them, they accepted your trade alliance since they had a want for the bonus resources they would get, and are now displeased since they had to be bothered. It is a stretch but possible perhaps? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If they weren't neutral, perhaps only when you established a Trade Alliance did one of your diplomatic representatives let slip that your empire spanned 20 systems and resided on planets just like the AI's homeworld... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyway, just a thought.

- b00tch

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

No, score-wise I'm in third place. Mainly because I'm builing lots of ships but then loosing them. (I took -25% Defensiveness)

Phoenix-D

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Simple. Trade alliance let them past your sats on warp points. Military alliance let them refuel and explore. Partnership gave them vision.

End result ... they saw what you have, and got jealous.

I never go above trade and research with an AI. There's more in it for them than for me. On PBW, I actually ask people -- "You want a military alliance -- OK. How are we aligning our military, and against who?"

I could stand some more official treaty types -- short duration research, 10 turn duration refueling treaty, 1 turn line of sight.

[ January 17, 2003, 19:41: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

I tend to avoid treaties unless it's a neutral race for one reason:

The AI uses treaties as an excuse to settle planets in system's I've already claimed. If there's a flag I can set to make the more peaceful races respect my borders, I'll enter into a treaty. But until then, they can keep running into my minefields.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

I did reverse to two AI setting, and things seem to be going fine. The neutral I attacked is still muderous. The phong keeps bounging back and forth from murderous and angry. And cue capa has slowly increased to bortherly, which is one level higher than when we made the trade alliance (now at 12%).
This is the kind of behaviour I would expect. I have been pretty much leaving the neutral alone, wanting to see how no contact affects it murdeous mood. I do occasionaly pop a ship through the worm hole to make sure it's not amassing a fleeet on the other side. it hasn't done that.
I do have planets in the adjoining system, and I am sure that has an impact. but I have no delusions that it will take more than 8-10 turns to have them warm up a notch. so far, so good. we'll see.
Unless of course, my fleet has to pass through their choke point system. then it's c-ya. lol

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

couslee
Neutrals don't ammass fleets. I've never seen much more than a few Light Crusiers and a lot of Sattellites.

Re: Treaties..... whats the point?
 

As I am finding out.

There are a lot of things that are second nature by now with those that have played the game for a while. This is still my first time through (not counting a couple of re-starts) and little things like that are not known. That applies to any newbie playing the game. They come in time, and through helpfull comments like yours, to become as second nature without having to give it any thought. But with no experience on how the game races react to different things, neutral or otherwise, and having come from a genre' full of cheating AIs, one must be cautious, and check out all aspects of the play.
Thats one reason I use tactical only in combat. to find out how well or badly the different components work. For example, my eary fleet of DUC/bomb ships was the terror of the sky. Until they had to battle a ship that had level3 ecm and they couldn't hit the thing. the AI did a one ship wonder, destroyed the entire fleet and took no damage (600 shields). it showed the importance of adding those components to a design and showed weaknesses on both sides. If you want the AI to concentrate on a heavily shielded/armored design, put one nalpalm on it. they seem to hate bombers with a passion, flying past more dangerous ships to get the bugger.

Thats anoth trial and error area. my first ship design had DF,PD,bomb,all gun types. it was a real POS in combat and tho it could "*****-slap" anything it did no real damage. Those that have played the game a number of times through know specializing ships is a better way to go. Newbs don't know this yet, but we learn. Don't be too hard on us newbies, you might be in some deep doo-doo when we get comfortable with the game and develop our strategies and move into the PBW arena. (evil grin)