weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

I'm in the process of creating my own personal mod, and a thought struck me Last night: Why weapon platforms? They really make no sense. For projectile guns and missile launchers, you have all of that gravity to overcome. Launching a missile out of orbit uses tremendous amounts of fuel. As for energy weapons, you have atmosphere to get through, which would degrade just about anything, espacially those projectile guns. A depleted uranium cannon firing from ground, through atmosphere, and escaping orbit? Ludicrous. Not really impossible, but far costlier than putting a similar launcher in orbit beforehand. The whole concept of planetary weapon platforms is somewhat fanciful, but they can have a huge impact on SE games, especially if you allow any WP range extending mounts. If anything, there should be WP range-decreasing mounts. Maybe someone else already said all of this.

The reason that I thought of all of this is mostly that I was trying to reason out how much cargo Earth could reasonably carry without any gigantic "cargo storage" cities. I figured that even if we go with Earth being large, 8000 kt is awfully light. And then I started wondering about fighters too. 20 kt for a fighter? Not sure about that, and probably nothing I can do about it. I'm sure someone has noticed that before.

Those are just comments, I know my options there, but what I wanted to know was where I could find some tutorials about data files, especially AI files. Some of that stuff makes NO sense to me. I just downloaded the available image MOD stuff, I think that's a great idea, but the AI construction queue (that word doesn't look right) files are complete Greek to me.

The mod itself has no specific focus, just trying to create more options in the game. I don't even have a title. I'm mostly expanding the tech tree, creating new components, new facilities, new mounts, kind of at random. A few tweaks. I doubt I'll ever make it public, as I've stolen from about a dozen other mods done by others and I wouldn't know where to begin with credits. I do have some shame.

Oh, yeah, and does anybody know where I can find more pictures of ships and such for existing races? Thanks.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

I agree - the thing I'm working on is going to greatly reduce the amount of damage you can do to a planet with bog-standard ship weapons too.

A good compromise would be to add smaller base sizes that can be used as cheap orbital weapon platforms (give them a big maintenance reduction too), but you can't stick them in a freighter and reinforce a new colony (not necessarily a 'bad thing') as you can with planetary-based platforms.

Also, if you remove weapon platforms you might get more troop v troop (plus militia) ground combats, which I'm all for.

Here's a link to Fyron's modding 101, which I found very useful.

The cargo storage figures are best treated as being arbitrary. There's nothing stopping you from changing them radically. I think in Proportions your homeworld can store a huge amount of kit.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

orev_saara, interesting points raised. In SE3, when you advanced in troop technology sufficiently, you gained the ability to have a group of them fire from the planet surface as if they were an anti proton beam. From this hokey beginning, planetary defence in the form of weapon platforms was born.

Personally I'd rather defend my planet with orbital facilities, but starbases are expensive. And you need a shipyard. I tried modding in a smaller hull, but I didn't do it right and then I lost interest.

I always wonder about this, take Star Trek Next Gen, the borg arrive and are met with a half a dozen fighter craft. In star wars, the death star arrives at Alderan, pauses, destroys the planet.

Hello, home world, some defensive ships please. The population should be glad its there and defer some of the maintenance cost.

[ January 23, 2003, 23:15: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

One thing you should quickly realize is that KT really means nothing, and is the default unit of measure for everything in the game.

Don't read it as anything more than that and you'll do OK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The numbers are all relative anyways.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">P&N v3.x -- Gravitic Manipulation racial trechnology ... Graviton Flux Cannons.

Weapon-platform only, uses theplanet's own gravitational field as a weapon. Very odd damage-at-range table (lots of damage in a bell-curve pattern ... with a "myopic zone" where no damage is done at all); one normal-mount and one "biggest" mount GFC on a Large WPlat makes for DEAD ships, at extreme ranges.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Remember those are SPACE fighters. 20,000 ton displacement, and probably a crew of twenty to fifty.

"Escorts" are (AFAIK) roughly the size of a modern nuclear aircraft carrier; you MIGHT manage to get an Escort to hold one Fighter bay and one cargo bay, to handle four fighters. Tops.

Modern aircraft carriers handle and launch/recover scores of "fightercraft" as we, today, know them.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

""Escorts" are (AFAIK) roughly the size of a modern nuclear aircraft carrier; you MIGHT manage to get an Escort to hold one Fighter bay and one cargo bay, to handle four fighters. Tops."

Actually the -fighters- are bigger than most current carriers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT: or some, rather. Displacement on the Nimitz class of carrier (US nuclear, biggie) is 97,000 tons.

Phoenix-D

[ January 24, 2003, 00:09: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Mmmmm. A 150kT escort is about the same mass as two supercarriers. Quite large for the first 'proper' ships a race launches into space, if you take the figures literally. It's best not to.

On the other hand, here's a rough comparison:
note: I was looking at making the fighters smaller over Christmas, (by making everything else 10 times larger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) so I did some checking of figures.

SE4 Large carrier 1,200kT
SE4 Large fighter 25kT

American supercarrier 60-80kT
F14 fighter jet 0.03kT (33 tons fully loaded I think)

Current HMS Ark Royal 20kT
Sea Harrier (small fighter?) 0.006kT (unloaded - probably about 10t with fuel and weapons)

The SE4 carrier is 15-20 times bigger than a modern supercarrier, but the SE4 fighter is almost a thousand times bigger than the modern equivalent. This is mostly due to SE4's tardis-like cargo handling.

Again, they're just numbers. If you don't like 'em (I'm more concerned about being able to fire heavy ship weapons at fighters at the moment), change 'em.

The other thing I've discovered is that British tons and tonnes are almost exactly the same mass, but American tons are slightly different. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tons, like pounds, are a measure of Force, not Mass. The Slug is the british system (which only the US uses anymore) unit for Mass.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Thank you one and all. I think I'll go and look for the wish list for the next patch/SEV now.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because it's easier to build a reactor and weapons system on the ground than in space.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">SE4 starts at a technology level at the very least a few centuries removed from us. Planetary launches are a non-issue for every species, and their ships routinely travel at speeds far faster than anything we can manage today. Missiles would have no problems leaving the atmosphere on as much fuel as can drive a ship from Earth to Mercury in a week.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Once again you've misjudged the technology level. Your basic energy weapon in SE4 is capable of killing every single person on Earth today in a single combat. That cannot be more than five days by the timing system used in the game. That's a massive amount of energy, and such a weapon would not be affected a great deal by atmospheres.

[quote]A depleted uranium cannon firing from ground, through atmosphere, and escaping orbit? Ludicrous. Not really impossible, but far costlier than putting a similar launcher in orbit beforehand.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's a science fiction game with warp points, usable organic based ships, and faster than light travel. I think that weapons mounted on planets are the least fanciful part of the game. Weapon platforms have increased ranges because theyare useless otherwise. Further, planetary weapons have a basis in science fiction, just watch The Empire Strikes Back.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Well put, Mr. Grice. I guess weapon platforms bother me because they're actually understandable in terms of modern science. I don't give wormholes any thought at all. I just file them under the necessary evils of an interstellar empire-building game and forget about it. Maybe I should do the same with weapon platforms, but I still don't see the need for them with satellites and bases. Of course, the beauty of SE is that I can just take em out if I don't like em. I might do that.

One Last nitpick: if an energy weapon bLasts out so much juice that atmospheric resistance is not an issue, wouldn't it kill people on the surface, too? I suppose that's really just another engineering problem that might be overcome by advance technology, so I shouldn't worry too much over it... still, can anybody think of a way to mod in planet-based ordnance degrading the planet it's fired from in some way? Ionizing radiation? Heat pollution? Toxic chemicals (love those acid globules)?

I NEED MORE MODDING OPTIONS!!!!

I probably have a little too much free time.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

You could just assume the weapons platforms are orbital somewhat more like a modern space stations. This doesn't really conflict with the other two options as bases and satellites are drastically different from the modern Versions as the modern ones are orbital while the SEIV are designed for deep space.

That or you could just say "who cares?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Realistic or not I think weapon platforms are essential for the game because there is no other effective protection for colonies.

[ January 25, 2003, 06:50: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Part of the 'Star Wars' missile defense included x-ray beams that would fire through the atmosphere. Yes, there would be some loss of power to the atmosphere but not that much. The thing that is unrealistic in most SciFi portrayals of ship's weapons hitting the ground (like Star Trek) is there is no secondary effect. It would be like a lightning strike, with a huge 'BOOM' after the beam stopped because the atmosphere would rush back into the vacuum left by the beam turning everything in its path to plasma. Weapons firing 'up' would be the same as ship's weapons firing 'down' in this regard.

Rail guns firing through the atmosphere are not improbable. The projectile just has to be able to survive the heat from friction with the atmosphere. You might well be able to take advantage of that heat to make your projectile a more effective armor piercer.

Missiles are even easier. NASA launches have to be as cheap as possible. They are going for efficiency, not speed. And of course they are launching large payloads. The old ABM missiles were much faster than any of the cargo launches you see today. They used a different (and much more expensive) fuel, and they only had to carry a warhead. As they develop this new defense system that GWB is pushing they'll probably develop new ABMs that are even faster. Assuming a few centuries of technology advancement there's no reason that huge numbers of (relatively) cheap missiles capable of reaching orbit and beyond very quickly could not be stocked up for planet defense.

I don't think weapon platforms are unrealistic at all. It's the planets themselves that are unrealistic. The generic 'conditions' (meant to be 'weather' I guess?) is just too vague to describe a planetary environment. We need gravity, radiation, and temperature ranges. I hope we'll get them in SE V.

And yes, the 'cargo capacity' of planets is arbitrarily limited. Realistically, even a medium-size planet like earth could hold more weapons that appear in an entire game of SE IV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But if we allowed all planets to have seven-digit cargo capacity it would be faily easy to stalemate the game by stocking one planet with a huge pile of weapons.

[ January 25, 2003, 16:20: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nah, you'd just have to create more planetkiller type weapons.

Just put a mass driver that fires once per combat, does 50K damage, and is small enough to mount a couple on large ships.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, there is no FTL in SE4. All engines are sublight engines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Sure, they can go fast (crossing a system in 1 month), but not faster than light speed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, there is no FTL in SE4. All engines are sublight engines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Sure, they can go fast (crossing a system in 1 month), but not faster than light speed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">totally btw: does anyone know how big our solar system is approximately? I mean in light hours

[ January 26, 2003, 14:33: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

[quote]Originally posted by Rollo:

Quote:

totally btw: does anyone know how big our solar system is approximately? I mean in light hours

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I heard once that the heliopause, that is the point where solar wind particles become so thin as to be indistiguisable from the usual particle density of "empty space" coused by other stars, is 2 light years. The ort cloud/Kuliper(?sp) belt orbits here, but the suns gravitational attraction is very weak here.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

[quote]Originally posted by Arkcon:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Rollo:

Quote:

totally btw: does anyone know how big our solar system is approximately? I mean in light hours

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I heard once that the heliopause, that is the point where solar wind particles become so thin as to be indistiguisable from the usual particle density of "empty space" coused by other stars, is 2 light years. The ort cloud/Kuliper(?sp) belt orbits here, but the suns gravitational attraction is very weak here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hmm, that sounds a little too big, if you ask me. given the fact that proxima centauri (the closest star) is 4 light years away.
anyway, this is way off-topic. I'll do some research and open a new thread.

Rollo

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure there is, warppoints allow you to travel FTL regularly.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Two light-years is much too big. The two Pioneer spacecraft are expected to hit the heliopause sometime in the next decade and they are only moving at something like 25,000 miles per hour. If there really is an 'Oort cloud' out there, though, it will be 1 light-year or more distant.

So it really depends on how you want to define the 'limits' of the solar system. What practical use is the Oort cloud? What effect does it have in the game? (Assuming all stars have one...) Not much unless we allow it to be 'harvested' somehow or other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Using the orbital domain of planets seems much more practical for the purpose of the game. If you use the orbit of Pluto as the 'limits' of the solar system you get a much smaller area. Pluto is anywhere from 4 to 6 'light-hours' from the sun (it has a highly eccentric orbit). Even with the larger distance light can cover the 'entire' width of the solar system in only 12 hours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Assuming that our solar system is fairly average, SE IV ships only need to travel at about 1/60th of the speed of light (less than 2 percent!) to be able to cross the solar system in one month. 300,000 km/sec divided by 60 is about 5,000 km/sec or 3,100 miles per second. Still quit a clip. Out fastest spacecraft to date only do about 7 or 8 miles per second.

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Baron, I basically agree with you. I have opened a new topic on this, btw. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=23;t=008034
My calculation comes out to be twice the speed of yours: 1/30 of the speed of light, since I assumed a system to be twice at large (1 light day). Since there are some objects beyond Pluto (remote mining the Kuiper belt?) and I am not sure that our system is indeed average, I doubled the size to be sure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Rollo

[ January 26, 2003, 17:27: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: weapon platforms, weight ratios and modding questions
 

Geez. I'd just like to apologize to Graeme Dice, whose name suffered an unfortunate accident in my Last post on this thread. Hope there's no hard feelings.