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new SEIV patch !!
There's a message on shrapnel's front page saying the new patch is out ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
[ January 27, 2003, 15:36: Message edited by: henk brouwer ] |
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Sweet!
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Anyone know what these really mean?
Version 1.84: 5. Added - Added two new target types for components: "Ships" and "Ships". Version 1.82: 6. Fixed - Improved the Transport minister a little. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Slick. |
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Shrapnel main page
> downloads |
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Thanks Spoo and Gandalph. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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Ha todays my b-day, what a great b-day present http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Now I just have to figure out how they knew http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif |
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this has probably been covered, but whats this mean:
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I hope this means that we can mod in mind control rays from space, with which to take over planets. not because i think its a good idea, but because its just so funny. |
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2 just means what it says. A ship with a MC is still protected from the AS even if the MC is destroyed.
1 is undoing a change made in 1.80. This was a beta patch not released to the public. He had changed it so the AS could NOT be modded to work against fighters/drones. Due to popular demand of the beta team and the general community, the exsistance of the change was made public even though the actual patch was not, he undid that change. I'd say if AS doesn't work against planets with 1.78 it's not going to work with 1.84 although I have never tried it. I agree that would be ridiculous. Geoschmo [ January 27, 2003, 18:44: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Geo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am wondering if there is a way to upgrade our PBW games to 1.84? Of course, all the players would have to agree to play under 1.84. But the first hurdle is, "Is it possible to play an existing game under 1.84" [Edited real name] [ January 27, 2003, 19:30: Message edited by: Mephisto ] |
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I've downloaded the patch from this site.
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/malfado...ld_patch_3.htm Now what do I do with it? Do I need to have two games? One with 1.78 for PBW and another for 1.84 |
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Here are the patches.
Version History for Space Empires IV --------------------------------------------------- Version 1.84: 1. Fixed - Reordered some of the formations to be better for ship movement. 2. Fixed - Tech Areas that were not allowed in the Game Setup would still show under the expected results list of research. 3. Fixed - Ships in combat will follow their fleet's strategy until they are no longer in a combat group. Once they are no longer in a combat group, they will follow their own strategy. 4. Changed - When planets take damage, weapon platforms will be destroyed first. After all weapon platforms are destroyed, then the remaining units will take damage randomly. 5. Added - Added two new target types for components: "Ships" and "Ships". 6. Fixed - The Designs Window list would not show a design with the same name as another, but with different case. 7. Fixed - AI would build multiple system-wide resource modifier facilities in a system. Version 1.83: 1. Fixed - You could stop a "Slow Build" by clearing the queue. 2. Fixed - You could stop a "Slow Build" by giving a planet to another player. 3. Fixed - The Jraenar battleship portrait was 1 pixel to large. 4. Fixed - Intro screen graphic stretches to the screen size. 5. Fixed - "Any" and "None" were being confused in CompEnhancement.txt for the field "Weapon Type Requirement". 6. Fixed - Weapon Mounts were not showing in the expected benefits list when looking at a Tech Area report. 7. Fixed - AI will now use Master Computers on his ships correctly. 8. Fixed - Added more slots to all of the formations to keep ships together better in combat. New formations thanks to Imperator Fyron. Version 1.82: 1. Changed - Ships in combat will now follow their fleet's strategy regardless of whether they are in a combat group or not. 2. Fixed - Computer Players which had a "Computer Player Bonus" set above None were not using all of their bonus funds. 3. Fixed - The largest ship in a sector was not always being drawn on top in the system display. 4. Fixed - Planets in combat would not fire all of their weapons (sometimes). 5. Fixed - Planets in combat would not fire enough seekers against a target to guarantee its destruction (sometimes). 6. Fixed - Improved the Transport minister a little. 7. Added - The Log Window will now return you to the item you had selected the Last time you were in the window. 8. Fixed - Ships with a Tractor Beam would not fire weapons located after the tractor beam in their design. Version 1.81: 1. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will work on all target types, again. 2. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will fail against a ship with a Master Computer (regardless if that component is damaged or not). It does not matter if there is a Bridge on the ship. 3. Fixed - AI will no longer launch "Anti-Planet" Drones in combat. 4. Added - Option to strategems to control how many drones are launched per target in combat. 5. Changed - You can now give drones orders to Attack warp points. This is essentially the same as telling them to warp through and attack anything on the other side. Any survivors can then be given new orders. Version 1.80: 1. Fixed - Integer Overflow when a unit with no shields was hit by normal weapons. 2. Changed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will only work against ships regardless of the target type. 3. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will fail against a ship with a Master Computer (regardless if that component is damaged or not). 4. Fixed - You can now give resource gifts in excess of 200,000. 5. Added - "x10000" and "x100000" to the Select Package window for resources. 6. Fixed - Fighters were unable to "Fire On And Destroy" ships. 7. Fixed - Organic Armor was pre-regenerating itself before damage occurred in combat. Version 1.79: 1. Fixed - "X Damage to Shields" damage types were not working correctly. 2. Fixed - Shield Depeleters will now work properly against units. 3. Fixed - The result of a Communication interception intelligence project will be displayed with arrows in the log window. 4. Fixed - Ships would clear their order if trying to move to sector 0,0. 5. Fixed - Ships with regnerating armor will regnerate all of their armor at the end of combat. 6. Fixed - During a Deconstruct & Analyze, you would sometimes receive duplicate techs if a component and the vehicle size were new to you |
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tbontob. Please edit your post and remove my name. It's not polite to use someones real name in a public forum. That is why we have nicks in the first place.
Geoschmo |
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Special thanks to PsychoTechFreak and Zarix for keeping the bug they discovered/confirmed a secret until it was patched. Thanks, boys! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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It should read: 5. Added - Added two new target types for components: "Ships\Planets\Sat" and "Ships\Planets\Sat\Drone". [ January 27, 2003, 19:54: Message edited by: Mephisto ] |
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Its being asked all over the forum, but I'll ask here too. What will this mean for in-progress games? I'm sure it depends on the particular game and mod, but in general are these changes of the sort to really break things?
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Was so excited about the new update, I just plain forgot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif |
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Excellent! Everything seems to work fine with the new patch. The log list feature (return to the Last position) is extremly helpful for my current game where my log is about 500 lines!
The attack order for drones works even better than expected, because it seems that if you attack a warp point the drones will warp to the other side, which means you can really use them now for recon!! |
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I don't have any games in progress right now, I've been working on my mod, which is my question. On the one hand, I didn't see any new features in the patch that I was particularly looking for, and I din't see any familiar errors, so I'm kind of reluctant to upgrade. On the other hand, I doubt this will be the Last patch, and I don't want my stuff to stagnate.
It looks like almost all of the stuff that changed was AI related, which I haven't done yet, so it should be fine. Can anybody else think of anything in the new patch that would require me to redo any data files? |
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Its being asked all over the forum, but I'll ask here too. What will this mean for in-progress games? I'm sure it depends on the particular game and mod, but in general are these changes of the sort to really break things?"
I'd say almost all the time you can, in un-modded SE4. Some of the changes may require updating by mods, but it doesn't look like there were too many this time. Phoenix-D |
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Geoschmo, when will it be possible to change a game to SEIV Version patch3??
Thanks Sparhawk |
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7. Fixed - AI will now use Master Computers on his ships correctly.
What does it mean? Equipping every ship with a MC "automatically" (we had this discussion some days ago) instead of bridge, CQ etc? Won't have the time to test it for the next couple of days but I have to know... [ January 27, 2003, 22:31: Message edited by: Rexxx ] |
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Remember to keep a separate install of 1.67/1.78 handy for your PBW games, at least until they all upgrade.
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Rexxx - yes, the AI will use MC on all ships as soon as they are available. It will not use B/LS/CQ then.
Rollo |
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Even if it only has MC I (4000 minerals, 40 kT) and it's building an escort which only requires 1500 minerals and 30 kT worth of control components? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
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guess the mc should be changed to 30kt to make it worth it volumewise.
also why is sheild generator I only 30kt but the rest are 40kt? |
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The AI will almost never have only Escorts when it gets MCs.
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Although, it occurs to me that an AI unlucky enough to discover computers in ruins early on would be screwed.
We could do a mod which makes the MC too large to fit on smaller ships, and give a MC only mount above the ship size at which we decide the AI should start using them. Geoschmo [ January 27, 2003, 23:42: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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But now there is Yet Another Vulnerability in the AI. Before, it was vulnerable to Psychic races because it didn't know to use the MC when it was in conflict with a Psychic race. Now it is vulnerable to ALL human players because it doesn't know to NOT use the MC when the player comes after it with the Computer Virus. And it will use the MC even in transports which is a ridiculous waste of resources. And yes, it will use them in any size ship so designing an AI that uses both large and small ships in the late game is impractical. This is a very bad change.
[ January 28, 2003, 00:14: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
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You could always mod the MC to be cheaper to help the AI.
Or move it to an offshoot tech of computer tech. |
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Thats what I was thinking. a MC of ANY size of a colony ship is stupid.
sigh |
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Well, I did a quick test, just being hopeful. Unfortunately, all ship designs use MCs, including transports, colony ships, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Hopefully, this can be patched in the DesignCreation file. Maybe a Master Computer line with choices of "Prefer," "Allow," and "Disallow" or something like that. Then the AI could use it when available, use it as needed but also discontinue it/supplement it with B/LS/CQ when necessary, or simply not use it according to the design.
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Still haven't tested the new patch yet but I read about some very bad news.
I would say we've got a new ultimate weapon. Against those poor AI races who like robotoid factories and conquering my planets I would design a large weapon platform. Large WPs with combat sensors, 5 CV III and 6 PDCs should do the trick. This mounted CV has a range of 12, it skips shield and armor. Extremely efficient. Well, an attacking fleet of direct fire ships will be getting in trouble. I would call that the renaissance of the plasma missile. Add to this the talisman and direct fire ships become useless for planetary attacks. My next AI will be religious (as a bonus this trait allows access to resorce boosting facilities without the vulnerability against CVs). As I said very bad news... Please, please tell me that this scenario is flawed. [ January 28, 2003, 09:00: Message edited by: Rexxx ] |
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You are all right about the AI problem with the master computer after the new patch. But IMHO the solution is quite simple: make the cost of a master computer equal or less than a bridge plus one life support plus one crew quarter and the size equal or less than 30kT. Then it will not harm the AI to use the MC even for the smallest ships.
In my personal mod I went a step further and made the master computer technology a racial technology and this works very well. |
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Look everything you describe was already possible before the new patch against human players who used master computers. Did that prevent the use of master computers?? You slow down ships by destroying their master computer, but they will still be able to fire and therefore destroy your colony if you have only the weapon platforms you describe. Then it is easy to repair the master computer after the combat if you have a repair ship in your fleet. And advanced AI races have ships with repair components in their fleets. Therefore I don't think the computer virus has become an ultimate weapon. But you point to a problem I criticized when the first news about this patch came out: if you start "balancing" the game by hard coded changes you might get more new problems than you solve. [ January 28, 2003, 10:48: Message edited by: Q ] |
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My point was that a human player can easily exploit this new "Yet Another Vulnerability in the AI". Add lots of fighters to the WPs described above and the attacking fleet will get serious troubles. You're right, advanced AIs use repair ships. However, so far I found no way to divide these ships evenly between my AI-fleets or to make sure that each fleet gets at least one. The only workaround I know of is to build "enough" of them and hope for the best. Another AI-problem which doesn't exist for the human player. |
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Originally posted by Nodachi:
The changes made so that an AS can no longer effect a ship with a damaged MC make perfect logical sense because a ship with an MC has no crew to convert. However, if a ship's MC is destroyed then that ship should be dead in the water instead of being able to continue to fight with a movement penalty. Can't disagree with this from a realism perspective. However since ships with destroyed B/CQ/LS are allowed to fight and move with a penalty, then ships with a destroyed MC should be able to as well. No? It looks to me that the AI in general just got handicapped and psychic AI's just got screwed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif The AI is handicapped, but I don't agree it's any worse then before, just different. We gave them their right arm back but we took their left. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Psychics maybe got screwed a bit, but the general consensus seemed to be before that Psychic was too powerful anyway. Heavy handed I think is a good term for this change. I think a change was needed. I would have prefered something else, but I think this is better than what it was before. But hopefully in the next patch he will tweak it a bit more. The more people talk about it and make suggestions the better though because then we can get a better idea of what should be proposed to Malfador. Geoschmo [ January 28, 2003, 13:38: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Look everything you describe was already possible before the new patch against human players who used master computers. Did that prevent the use of master computers?? You slow down ships by destroying their master computer, but they will still be able to fire and therefore destroy your colony if you have only the weapon platforms you describe. Then it is easy to repair the master computer after the combat if you have a repair ship in your fleet. And advanced AI races have ships with repair components in their fleets. Therefore I don't think the computer virus has become an ultimate weapon. But you point to a problem I criticized when the first news about this patch came out: if you start "balancing" the game by hard coded changes you might get more new problems than you solve.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the attacking ships have a Bridge (or Auxillary Control), they should still get 1/2 movemement after the CV takes out the master computer. |
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Any feedback about my Prefer/Allow/Disallow idea? If it sounds reasonable, especially to the AI modders out there, I'd like to send it to Aaron. It seems a simple enough means to permit AI use of MCs but yet prevent all-out usage. And it gives one more thing to mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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I cannot believe people are still grumbling about AI limitations. Since there is no way to code your AIs to look at the environment around them, it will be hard to produce good AIs. You really need to be able to access information that would be available to a human playing the game. You need to know your resource levels, what are my shipyard capacities, what kind of races surround you, where there are big stacks of ships controled by other players, what those designs look like, etc.
If you really want to create smart AIs, you need to program them and have SEIV provide a way of indicating an executible module to make your designs (e.g. a COM object, a .NET object, or a DLL to invoke your AI code). In conjunction to this, SEIV would need to define interfaces that could be used to get information on the game (List of colonies, ships, units - friendly and enemy; Resource Information; Rival Race Information; Rival Designs; Treaty Grid; and so on all need to be available). Until you can create AIs in such a manner, they are going to be weakly driven by priority parameters. Those priority parameter are based on what you think is important in every game, they do not react to what actually transpires. The only time I play SEIV is against humans, other than to test a race design for early growth (testing construction rate versus resource production) to make sure my designed race will be balanced. This new patch fixed some bugs and weakness that human players could really exploid against other human players who do not know about them (or whose race cannot exploit them). A good fix was the quad damage versus shields fix. I moded those weapons to be Shields Only and I made the damage 4 times bigger to avoid Temporal Players from exploiting that bug. The MC/Al Subverted takes away the unstopable combination of Virus + Allegiance Subverter for Psychic races. Now, the Psychic has one weapon for MC ships and one for crewed ships and he has to guess which type to build. You build both, you might not get to use one. This allows designs to be counterd, but at a cost. Before there was no counter to a Psychic with CVs before the patch. |
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I don't think most of us disagree with the need for the fix, just the extent of the fix. AI use of the MC was broken, and it needed to be fixed. This patch did that. However, by not adding any limiting factors controlling the use of the MC (i.e., not on colony/transport ships), it gives a new set of obstacles to the AI. Colony ships will now be what, 4000 mins more expensive? That adds a turn to ship building for all but those with God-like construction. That is a disadvantage.
The solution I've suggested would allow the AI to use MCs when it's convenient/appropriate, but allow modders to control or forbid their use for designs which won't benefit from it. Admittedly, there will still need to be some hard-coded basis for determining when MC use/disuse is warranted, but it's better than nothing. [ January 28, 2003, 18:22: Message edited by: Krsqk ] |
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