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hydrogen fuel cell car
OK, I had an insomnia and listen to G.W.Bush speach (3am Zulu). Amid all the rubbish about Irag there was an interesting part - $1.2*10^9 to develop a clean car. At first, it looks like a good idea - car that emits only H2O. But... nobody, even american president cancel the first law of thermodynamics. Where all that H2 will come from ?? To make it, USA will have to multiply energy production. I don't know, double, tripple or may be less ? There is no way it can come from renewable sources - no place to build dozens of Hoover Dam or thousands of windmills. And nobody would want to build dozens of nuclear plants in your neighborhood. At the end, USA will have to build a lot more of power plants, burn more oil/gas/coal than now and pollute Earth even more ! Second law of thermodynamics is still valid and whatever the evil of cars, they are quite efficient in converting the oil energy to car motion. Now we will have a multistep process, Oil->electricity->hydrogen->wheel spining. Please don't tell me it will decrease the end amount of CO2.
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I know for a fact I would not want cars to increase humidity. And that IS bad for the environment.
One of the causes of the pollution inVersion layer in Phoenix, for example, is the large amount of pool owners there. The increase of humidity (during summer months) from evaporation from those, has caused a nasty pocket over the town. No, they would have to develop some sort of HO2 reclamation in the exaust system, and a national system to reclaim that. Send it through water treatment and and then back out. Otherwise you would still be hurting the environment, but in a different way. The problem with getting any of these alternative sources off the ground, is the oil powers have a lot of money to use for lobbying. Both here in the US, and abroad. How hard do you think Saudi Arabia would fight (politically speaking) to keep oil the mainstay? We have a lot of technology that would eliminate fossil fuel dependence. It's getting it implemented that is causing a problem. It is an economic war. Now this, is just hearsay, but I heard way back back when I lived out on the west coast. someone obtained the funding for a major windmill project. and an "investor" came and bought him out with an "offer he could not refuse". the investor was from an oil company, and once in control of the project, it was scrapped. never did get completed. Even if the story was not factual, the potential for it being true is present. (edited for typos, may have missed some.lol) [ January 29, 2003, 13:13: Message edited by: couslee ] |
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Check this
link:http://www.ford.com/en/ourVehicles/e...es/default.htm Read something in a National Geographic about the reaction for the hydrogen fuel sells comming from some sort of chemical found in the south western U.S. that is used in Borax or something. |
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I'm not sure what the process is,
Over a decade ago I saw some information on the production of solar cells. I seem to recall the manufacturing process is horribly polluting. Other power generating options include Floating teathered electric generators in the ocean. The motion induced moves the < insert the techical stuff for generates electricity >. I think they have experimented with this in the Bay of Fundy On a social level Promote vegetarianism. It takes far less power to produce fruits and vegetables than it does to produce an equal supply of nutrieants in beaf / pork / chicken. Cook as little of this food as possible. Cooking destroys a lot of the vitamens in food. < Side note: Pooh Star dropped from a size 22 to a 14 on this diet. She has kept it off by remaining on this diet. > Get rid of escaltors and people movers. Make people use elevetors or stairs or walk even. I have a bunch more radical ideas left over from the 60' / 70s but I'll spare you. Oh, wait, one more: Get rid of SUVs!!!! |
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Although, I agree, it's just like Geo said, concentrating the polution producer in one spot so it can be controled is worthwhile. But overall cost effectivness isn't there with biodiesel and ethanol fuel. |
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gryphin, you can not just ignore people with handicaps. elevators and "walk belts" ect are necessary. and you can't outlaw laziness for those that don't really need them.
So, the SE4 generator platform: is large has wave motion generator technology has windmills generator technology has solar panel technology, all on a floating pLastic conjoined platform. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif this is sounding better. leave it to the SE4 forum posters to solve the world's fossile fuel crisis. lol and they say TBSers don't know anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif edit in: And has anti-aircraft/anti-missle technology. mwahaha. that might get the gov't contract [ January 29, 2003, 13:22: Message edited by: couslee ] |
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Guys, it's not a choice between CO/CO2 exhaust and water vapor exhaust. Conventional gas powered car exhaust has water vapor in it too. Maybe not as much as a straight hyrdogen fuel cell, but hey at least water vapor is non-toxic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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ok, then the next time my car starts dripping water from the exaust pipe, from the condensation in the exaust system, I'll save you glass of it to drink.
no, that water is toxic too, because it contains other particles from the combustion process. edit in. water form a hydrogen system, not sure of tho. but it would cause inVersion layers. they are bad [ January 29, 2003, 13:27: Message edited by: couslee ] |
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Wait a minute...I played three missions of C&C:RA Last night. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif |
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Wait a minute...I played three missions of C&C:RA Last night. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and you have to click on it 50 times for it to work |
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Geoschmo [ January 29, 2003, 13:35: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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yea, I caught that myself after I hit enter. it was a brain fart. thats why I did an edit. ya just beat me to the punch.
there still is a downside to hydrogen fuel car exaust. that increase of humidity can cause a serious imbalance in the natural environment of that area. thta is what happened in Phonenix. for about 4 years in a row, home built in pool sales had skyrocketed, but during the summer months, the polution inVersion layer increased a lot also. they brought in environments specialists to analyse the problem, and the pools is what they came up with as their responce. the city began making more laws regarding pool ownership, installed more restriction on new ones, and 'asked" the public to slow down a bit. This was when I was there, about 8yrs? ago. i am sure it would not be too hard to find the actual reports if one was inclined to do the search. |
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Best solution to humidity (if it did become a problem) would be to condense it inside the car and then somehow get it into the sewer system.
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Did anyone readd that thing about generating power from the Earth's magnetic field? You have a really long cable of some kind on an orbital platform, rotating. Apparently this can (theoretically) be used to generate power. Of course, how that power then gets back to Earth is a different matter... [ January 29, 2003, 14:23: Message edited by: dogscoff ] |
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some time ago I read the residential solar panel Users had an average 25% reduction in home electricy bills. Tho the panels produce about the same amount for different Users, the electrical bill was talk about in percentage reduction. how they figured all that out, I don't know. they do provide electricy, but not enough to become self-sufficent. of coure, recent technology may have made them better, i am just not aware of those advances.
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Geoschmo |
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oh, 25% then. Still, it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
Microwave beams do sound cool, except that if the satellite slips out of it's geosynchronous orbit it could accidentally frazzle anything on the ground below it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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IIRC, unless you have a cannister of pure oxygen as part of the fuel supply, you do get some nitrogen compounds in the exhaust. So it's not "only" water as exhaust. Still, it's probably a lot better than petrochemicals.
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Nitrogen compounds? Fertalizer! Hydrogen cars emit water and fertalizer? We can plant crops in the median between the highway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Automobile magazine, popular science and popular mechanics, i dont remember the issues, have had several articles on alternative feuled vehicles.
they mentioned methynol as one of them and the main drawback was the amount of land necessary to grow the feul. however there are plenty of farmers that are being paid not to grow crops, why not just ask them to grow the feul instead. as mentioned earlier in the thread hybrid vehicles are out now and they are icreasing the gas mileage, particularly in non hiway driving where it runs off the electric motor instead of the gas one (i think the maximum speed is 35mph on the electric motor). also europe has a couple of cars that are coming out that help reduce emissions but that wont be available in the us for a while. it mentioned that one of the drawback was low acceleration and that most americans probably would not like that. another good thing about alternative feuls is it would reduce the reliance on the middle eastern countries for oil. thus maybe the us will keep its nose out of other peoples problems over there. after all that was the main concern during desert storm, the welfare of the people was a secondary concern of the government. also they would not be able to support terrorists if we arent paying them huge amounts of money. (rant over by me on this little subject) imo within the next 5-10 years i think alternative feuled vehicles will replace most oil based feuled ones. of course it is also going to cause problems as people will have to by new vehicles as they phase out oil based feuls. (which is another scam similiar to the one mentioned about hdtvs in another thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif and the big 2000 scare of computers crashing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) [ January 29, 2003, 17:05: Message edited by: desdinova ] |
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I'm all for a gentle clean morning mist that will drop the daytime highs below 120f. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (ok below 100) |
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I'd like to add that the weight of the emission equipment is important in a moving vehicle. Moving this weight around adds the the combustion vehicles inefficency and results in more fuel burned. A fixed location for emissions controls makes the weight a mute consideration. It also opens an opportunity for better controls. |
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Well, I've checked this thread a coupla' times today and a few people mentioned stuff about 'big oil'. I've been thinking that Bush's whole idea was not for a hydrogen car but a political decoy. Everyone knows Bush is 'big oil's friend. I just think it's a ploy - let's wait 'till someone gets the money and does some measurable research.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
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Still useful, though. |
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One of the costs of solar power that isn't usually mentioned is pollution from manufacturing all those solar panels. Making photovoltaic cells is a pretty nasty process, from what I've heard.
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This is mind boggling. Why do this? Prestiege? To benefit the rest of the neighborhood? To just insure they personally are never affected by a rolling blackout? And if the Last one is true, is that a good enough reason for parts of the US to do the same? Oh no, a chink in my capitalist armor. Quick someone plug it with a wad of 20's. [ January 29, 2003, 22:44: Message edited by: Arkcon ] |
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dude, Japan could teach the course on capitalism. sure, they over extended their economy a bit by purchasing half of the developed world, but they're getting better. slowly.
and if making the little guy buy solar pannels in order to profit off of them isnt capitalism, im not sure what is. I just wish I'd thought of it (and been in the position to benefit from it) first! |
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GO-GO-GODZILLA! |
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Let’s note a few points here. Hydrogen is the energy in gas oil and coal. So we have quite a lot at the moment, all we need to do is change the way we refine it. And in so doing, we can contain the carbon, sulfur and other impurities. So we can deploy cars with fuel cells. Add to that some advancements in superconducting magnets and storage batteries, and you could have a workable car. But that won’t solve the problem! What it comes down to is that there are just too many cars in the world. And that brings us to the problem of too many people in the world, a problem that will never be addressed. So, we will continue to consume everything in sight until it runs out. Here in the developed world we will spend on technology and try to hold the line on the damage we do. All the while, the developing world will continue to increase their out put at a rate that far exceeds our reductions. So in the end, we will continue to screw it all up until something runs out. Then there will suddenly be a lot less people.
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I just read this one site about fuel cells, and they suggest that a fuel cell vehicle will produce less water than a gasoline vehicle, so the fears of "water pollution" causing problems in cities is unlikely to occur. The site did note, though, that the water vapor was colder than in a combustion engine, so it might not be absorbed in the air as much.
As for the comments about it taking fossil fuels to create the electricity to extract hydrogen from water, that appears to not be an issue. Most of the hydrogen fuel cells being examined right now are using fossil fuels (oil, natural gas, methane) to produce the hydrogen, and as such you do gain energy in the process. (btw, the only thing that such a fuel cell produces is water and CO2. Personally, I don't think the world needs to worry about CO2 production, but that is a topic for another debate (: ). Oh yeah, here is the URL for the website I was reading: http://www.fuelcells.org/fcfaqs.htm#from [ January 29, 2003, 23:50: Message edited by: Fian ] |
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But I think your premise is a bit pessimistic. If people could be better educated about the safety of nuclear power generation it would help. And you might be right about the dams, but there are millions of places that windmills can be placed. And you don't even mention solar power. The biggest thing stunting the growth of these alternative fuels is not inaction by the government, but a lack of demand compared to the higher costs of developing them. Increasing the need for H2 to replace conventional gas powered vehicles would greatly increase that demand. Geoschmo [ January 29, 2003, 12:13: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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[ January 29, 2003, 12:16: Message edited by: dumbluck ] |
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Actually, windmills are used extensively towards the west cost. Indio, Ca. has a LOT of them providing power for the town. Also, they really don take up any more space than one of those large electrical cable towers. wind is abundant and free, and there is a lot of cheap open property in the high deserts. they also don't harm the environment, other than the trampling that would occur duing the construction phaze, which with a little effort, a lot can be avoided. The major set-back to them, is the construction cost. you have the framing, the prop, and the large generator for each one. so even if it was windy every day where they were set up, it would take quite a while before the break even point. even in areas know for wind, it is not always a given. they are a good long term investment, but with a lot of up-front cost. the other associated costs are maintenence on the generators (and labor for that, trucks, insurance, ect). and destruction from weather damage. IE lightning, tornadoes, hail. so there is also a risk involved. I think that if a group wanted to persue the endeavor, and not do it half-assed, they could turn a profit within a decade. and, once the black line was reached, they would be very profitable, even in the event of a bad storm. a large group of them spinning day and night produce a considerable amout of electricity. I personally would not hesitate to invest in such a project, but have not the funds to do so. oh well.
edit in: another thing that can be done to increase profitability, is use them in conjunction with solar panels. [ January 29, 2003, 12:23: Message edited by: couslee ] |
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[quote]Originally posted by dumbluck:
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On a serious note, I'm more inclined to think that Biodiesel is a better solution. Biodiesel is, in essense, identical to petrol based Diesel, but it's manufactured using Corn (or was it soybeans?), an acid, and a catalyst. The acid and catalyst can be recovered and used again, and IIRC, one could then refine the Biodiesel into Gasoline using the same methods as those for Petrol based products. The advantage to this is that we aren't digging CO2 out of the ground and throwing it up into the atmosphere. Instead, we're pulling the CO2 out of the atmosphere to make the diesel, then throwing it back up into the atmosphere when we burn it. Thus there is no increase in greenhouse gasses, we're just recycling them. edit: for a more short term fix: there is always ethenol(sp?). It's made from corn (I think Biodiesel comes from soybeans). Auto engines can burn up to a 20%(?) ethenol mixture with gas (gas=80%, ethenol=20%). With some minor modifications to engines, that ratio can be reversed (80% ethenol, 20% gas). That won't solve all the problems, of coarse. But it would definately make a dent in the pollution levels, huh? [ January 29, 2003, 12:27: Message edited by: dumbluck ] |
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And if we really run out of places to stick them (unlikely in the near future) there has been some work in Europe or soemwhere I believe converting old off shore oil rigs to windmills. This of course would increase the up front costs probably, but eventually they would break even too I am sure. And all that does is open up a great part of 4/5ths of the earths surface that noone is currenly using for anything else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
[ January 29, 2003, 12:26: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Well, do you really want those oil tankers running the slolum (sp?) thru all those windmill rigs? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
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lol. a great big teathered pLastic floating energy supply three miles off of the cost. hmmm. (calls some investors)
of course, the original topic had to do with cars. and I would not want my ride to have a beenie cap. (might look good on a VW) lol |
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edit in it would not be a rigid surface either. imagine a snake's skin with a windmill every other scale. or picture how the scattering armor looks in the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif lol [ January 29, 2003, 12:36: Message edited by: couslee ] |
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The Hydrogen car is a reality. BMW have developped the technology in a suitably small and affordable form. They have only to work out how to build "moulded" hydrogen storage units (rather than big 'ol cylinders in the boot) and they're there. Oh, and the small matter of setting up national networks of hydrogen fuelling stations...
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Also, imagine if every house, office and factory had a solar panel on the roof - you'd hardly see them but you could probably close down a nuclear plant or two. Cars, too - We already have hybrid electric/ fossil fuel cars, why not a hybrid electric/ hydrogen one? Then you could stick a few solar panels on the roof for the electric motor. Granted, they wouldn't get the car very far on their own, but they would help to reduce the power being taken from the national grid. Add to that those systems you can get which reclaim power from the brakes (can't remember what that's called), and you could probably negate the excess energy consumption you're worried about. Also, don't forget other renewable sources: Geothermal, for example (although that's limited) and wave power. I think I read that here in the UK we have enough potential for wave power to run the entire country. Finally, more could be done to reduce the power already being consumed: better heat insulation in homes, people switching off lights they're not using, drinking water not being wasted, walking/ cycling for short journies rather than drive. People wouldn't have to make huge sacrifices to do these things either- saving energy saves money. All it needs is a shift in the way people, businesses and government think. All that said, it wil be interesting to see if the hydrogen car's water exhaust doesn't turn into a kind of pollution itself... we have the potential to banish petrol fumes and diesel particulates from our cities forever, but at the cost of increased humidity. Will buildings and streets be running with condensation? Will all the excess water affect precipitation? |
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And I would't worry too much about water vapor - we'll hardly notice it. |
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It is actually easier to lose weight while not being a vegetarian because your body uses proteins when it breaks down fats. Eating more proteins and excercisng is how you lose weight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Those fruits and vegetables lack a lot of necessary nutrients that are only found in animal products, and some very specific types of vegetables. But, you have to eat more of those vegetables to get the lacking nutrients than you'd need for an equivalent amount of animal products. |
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Further, humans are meant to eat meat, and can only survive without eating meat by eating a huge amount of the few vegetables that contain the amino acids we can't synthesize. Quote:
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"Let’s note a few points here. Hydrogen is the energy in gas oil and coal. So we have quite a lot at the moment, all we need to do is change the way we refine it. And in so doing, we can contain the carbon, sulfur and other impurities."
Except those are useful for other things. Much easier to use seawater. It's plentiful, it has lots of hydrogen, and the techniques needed to seperate the hydrogen are easily done. (this is also why fusion is an attractive energy source) Phoenix-D |
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Run electricity through some water, it separates into hydrogen and oxygen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Further, humans are meant to eat meat, and can only survive without eating meat by eating a huge amount of the few vegetables that contain the amino acids we can't synthesize. Quote:
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"Let’s note a few points here. Hydrogen is the energy in gas oil and coal..."
Not really -- the chemical bonds are. Breaking or forming chemical bonds creates energy. H2 cars sounds cool, but the costs would be massive... building a whole new energy infrastructure while maintaining the gas one (for late adopters) woudl be much expensive. Nevertheless, I like the idea of fuel cell cars. |
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Remember when cold fusion was announced by Pons and Fleischmann? Everybody was so excited! People thought that we'll just put a small cold fusion reactor in each house, and we'll have lots of cheap power. We'll put cold fusion reactors in cars and we'll no longer need to use fossil fuels. Then there was that big controversy when the cold fusion experiment couldn't be successfully replicated in other labs. Some people thought that it was a consipiracy by the big petroleum corporations to suppress the discovery in order to protect their industry. Haven't heard anything about those guys for years now.
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Just read an article on General Motors new concept 'Hy-wire'. This is the first link that google provided: http://www.time.com/time/2002/invent...ra_hywire.html
It really impressed (the article I've read had many more details) me. And they are now working on fuel cells being able to provide enough energy to drive 500 km without refuelling. Think how much further you can go with your car's full tank? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Everything is programmable and they indicate that the car may become a sportscar! It would be very interesting to try an electric sports car http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Edit: spelling... [ January 30, 2003, 08:14: Message edited by: Pablo ] |
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