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Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Why are certain weapons good and others totally useless? My problem is with weapons like torpedos. I don't see any benefit to ever researching them. Anyone have any good ideas on how to use some of these useless weapons?
[ June 16, 2003, 23:29: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Yes, torpedoes are useless. But that's OK - you can always mod them so they're more useful! For example, in P&N, torpedoes get around a 10%-20% bonus to hit, depending on tech level, on the grounds that they have a limited seeking capability. Or you could give them longer range or higher damage if you want... the possibilities are endless!
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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2) element of suprise 3) something for ruins to give you that you wouldn't already heave 4) an example for you to mod 5) something which becomes usefull when something else is modded out 6) something beneficial at higher tech levels 7) some tactic you haven't discovered yet For torpedos, they are the direct fire weapon that you get from the Military Science theorectical tech. Maybe someone doesn't want to go straight for physics I [ January 29, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: Arkcon ] |
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Torps actually do have some uses, along with the WMG.
1. They may have a lower per-kiloton per-turn damage value, but that doesn't matter if your target is killed by the first salvo. The torps aren't so good at this part, since three APBs = two torps in space, but only 5 less damage. 2. Against Emissive Armor and Crystalline armor, a weapon that does higher damage per shot does better. Ex: your opponent has 5 CA IIIs, so he gets 25 (?) shield points every time you do 25 points of damage or more. Two torps fire. 200 points of damage, 50 shield regeneration. Three APBs fire. 195 points of damage, 75 shield regeneration. Phoenix-D |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I wouldn't say torps are useless -- damage doesn't fall off at range, unlike other DF weapons. As mentioned, you can also mod them to have a small "to hit" bonus to make them more effective (I went w/ +10% on a personal mod). Quantums can be pretty effective in mounts (esp. base/platform). Although ship mount dam/kt (300/80?, someone correct me if I'm wrong) isn't the best ratio in the game, it still doesn't totally bite.
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Crystalline armor is hardly ever used, esp. in PBW games. That is not a good reason to use torpedos in most cases. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And, you just have to mount those APBs. Large or Heavy Mounted, they pierce right through CA with no problem, unless you use an absurd amount, like 10 or more. In that case, just use some Shield Disruptors to eliminate the shield generators.
Emmissive armor doesn't do enough to matter much, esp. with mounts. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Quontum Torpedoes were king in the PBW Grit Tech game. Of course we disabled all the energy weapons at game setup. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Geo |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
A lot of weapons look like crap, until you put them on a mount. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Not saying I use them, I have yet to really check them out |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Torpedoes are good... compared to Graviton Hellbores... ;->
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I've heard people making proposals about a mod to "balance" all weapons and making all of them worth researching, each with its own unique advantages/disadvantages, but I have never seen such a mod.
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
What a great idea. Let's put together a weapons mod that balances all of these weapons out.
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
"What a great idea. Let's put together a weapons mod that balances all of these weapons out."
This is not easy. Let me repeat that. This.Is.Not.Easy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think the reason you don't see many if any released balanced mods is because people try and fail. Phoenix-D |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Perfect balance is hard, but you'd think you could at least avoid having weapons as useless as torps are.
I havn't had much success with cobalt warheads on smaller ships, either. But it might be my lack of skill. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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[ January 29, 2003, 23:38: Message edited by: spoon ] |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Two things have disrupted the rather nifty balance between 'beams' and 'torpedos' in SE III. First is MOUNTS as many have already noted. It used to be necessary to have a harder hitting weapon to break Emissive Armor. Now you can just use a mount and your APB can break Emissive Armor just fine. In fact, Emissive Armor is pretty near useless once Cruisers appear. I think it needs more tech levels with greater power so it can continue to be worth using.
But the other thing, which has not been mentioned, is RANGE ATTENUATION. Go back and look at weapons in SE III again. The favored beam weapon was the A-P beam, of course, and it always reduced to 1 or 2 damage at max range. Now look at the current power of the A-P in stock SE IV. It ends at 45, or the equivalent of 4.5 in SE III. This is more than TWICE the damage it did at that range in SE III, proportionally speaking! Maybe this has altered the balance of power between beam weapons and torpedos, which traditionally had the advantage of no range attenuation? I think so... Consider the various new weapons as well. They show very little range attenuation when they have any at all. There are some that have no range attenuation, of course, like the Telekinetic Projector. But this is arguably a part of the advantage of that racial tech. This is supposed to be a special sort of weapon that doesn't act like 'normal' energy weapons. Most of them, though, should suffer major range effects like the A-P once did. The fact that they do not goes a long way to explain the apparent weakness of torpedos. So while you're wondering why some weapons are useless, consider that it might be because some other weapons have been over-powered. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ January 30, 2003, 02:27: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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Baron, I agree. And a mod that might make someone give up their favorite weapon because it's not overpowered anymore would get razzed. I personally was supprized to see torpedoes were not "seekers" with a double range from what they have now. Sure, the way a DF weapon is mounted could increase aspects of it. but a torpedo is a torpedo is a torpedo. They don't become more powerfull if you stick them in a bigger box, or in a bigger tube. the other gripe I have about seekers, is the fire, wait a turn, then move........huh? If I launch a missle, it DOES NOT hover there for a hour before proceeding. Alas, it is what it is, and not what I "think" it should be. Edit in: I also think mounts should require their own tech branch, and would not be a cheap one either. But I think the freebie mount is a hard code item. not sure if that even can be modded. [ January 30, 2003, 03:14: Message edited by: couslee ] |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Mounts can be modded. And as for torpedo mounts..you can stick a bigger torpedo in, yes? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
If torps were seekers with twice the range they'd be CSMs. Well, almost. Phoenix-D |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Another major obstacle to any "balance" mod is that no two people agree on how to achieve "balance".
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I am still early in my current game, but have been checking out torps...they have been mineral cheap so far.
Comparison: DUC2: 150 min, FR 1, dmg 25/25/25, 30kt&DR,all but seekers AMT2: 100 min, FR 2, dmg 35/35/35 40kt&DR,ships and planets Compared to the same level DUC, they do more damage, and are harder to break than the DUC, however you sacrifice fire rating, ship space, and potential targets. For level vs level they could be improved a little, but not too much. considering they are a little more expensive than DUC for tech cost, they should imo be "all but seekers" and a FR of 1. Can't look at the higher level ones yet, not that far in the game. that, and I am not doing a study on them, just basic observations. i have enough on my plate with this game (being my first SimuTurn game) |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I'd like to suggest a few folks:
Agree on all of the factors that go into a wepons system such as Cost, size, Fire rate, Research points....etc.. Then design 2 weapons that are, "ballenced" in SE IV terms. Not something I'm capable of. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Torpedoes should not be able to targe all but seekers. They should only be able to target ships, bases and planets. You can't bLast small things like fighters with Torpedoes very well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Fyron you are quite correct.
By todays standards Torpedos are water born Fighters are air born "And never the twain shall meet Till sky and sea stand presently at Gods great judgement seat" < with apologies to Rudyard Kipling > |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
If torpedoes fired every turn and could hit all targets... they'd be just another weapon like most others. It would remove more from the game than it added. The question isn't so much "What should a Twinkie Torpedo do?" but "What combinations of pros and cons are interesting and neither worthless nor clearly better than all other choices?"
PvK |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I can agree on that Fyron. But it didn't show ships/planets/bases. only ships/planets.
I have not got to check out fighters yet. But what about smaller weapons? The AMT has a little brother that that looks like a powerhouse. You can't have the "smaller" Version of a weapon when no "bigger" Version is there. Maybe that is their only purpose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif well, you can, but people would say "where are the bigger torpedoes?". I think the problems is in that, earth based torps can go where missles can't (underwater), and visa-versa. There are not limiters like that in this game. Now, if torp weapons were immune to the effect of nebula on scanners.... they might have that specific purpose. I have only had one nebula battle, and was not looking to see if ship based scanners still worked or not. tis an idea, anyway. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Hey all. Well I'm currently working on a mod to tweak things a bit. Here is a list of things I'm changing.
Ship size: -Allowing Frigate an extra engine. -Tweaking size of BB, DN, Baseship, Battlestation, and Starbase. Weapon tweaks: -torpedos get +15% to hit and and reduced size by 10k -MIssiles are reduced in size by half. -Plamsa Missile is reduced in size by 10k and can now peirce armor. -High Energy Weapons (Ripper,Incinerator,Wave Motion) cause Double damage to sheilds. -Graviton Hellbores can now pierce all shields -Making firing rate of relic weapons 5 instead of 30. Still working on the others. Let me know what you think. I feel now that missiles can truly be used. Torpedoes are finally a valid option. The other weapons also have pluses worth looking at. [ January 31, 2003, 20:12: Message edited by: atomannj ] |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Ship size:
-Allowing Frigate an extra engine from 6 to 7. -Tweaking size of BB to 900kt, DN to 1200kt, Baseship to 2000kt, Battlestation to 1500kt, and Starbase to 3000kt. Weapon tweaks: -torpedoes get +15% to hit and reduced size to 40k -Missiles are reduced in size to 25k. -Plamsa Missile stays at 50k but can now pierce armor. -High Energy Weapons (Ripper,Incinerator,Wave Motion) cause Double damage to sheilds. -Graviton Hellbores can now pierce all shields -Massive Shield Depleter reload set to 5 -Massive Ionic Disperser reload set to 5 -High-Energy Discharge Weapons (ripper,incinerator,wave motion gun) have the Double Damage To Shields I will post my completed mod asap. Let me know what you think. |
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torpedoes: give a higher bonus to hit. Like +30. missiles: 25kt seems too drastic. I'd make them 40kt and a lot cheaper. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Bases are ships for many purposes, such as Weapon Target. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For targeting, Ships/Planets = Ships/Bases/Planets. It does not for the Vehicle Type line (which restricts what vehicle types a comp can be placed on) though.
[ January 31, 2003, 20:22: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
missiles: 25kt seems too drastic. I'd make them 40kt and a lot cheaper"
Consider that point-defense cannons are 20kt and can fire every turn, where missiles can only fire every three turns..and often get shot once or twice on the way in. Phoenix-D |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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If you use FQM, there are a lot of places that will interfere with combat sensors. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Yea, but missles have great range. You can pull into range, fire the missles and back away until the reload time is done. I don't feel anything is wrong with missles. Torps are another issue.
(as is strategic combat) yuk http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
[quote]Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Technically, combat sensors are unaffected by storms. The ships just get a penalty to hit.
Seekers are the only weapons that can be unaffected by storms. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
"You can pull into range, fire the missles and back away until the reload time is done."
And watch as they all get shot down? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Phoenix-D |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I'm still pretty new here but I for one like torpedoes. I'll put about 3 of them on a destroyer and go up point blank and fire away. The A I is usually concentrating on the bigger ships which I load with weapon,engine and shield destroying type weapons as well as the null space weapons.
The torpedoes are especially effective after the enemies shields have been eliminated by the other ships. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
PPBs, APBs, etc. do a lot more damage than those torpedoes per kiloton though.
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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Explain to me how seekers are affected by storms? |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
"Explain to me how seekers are affected by storms?"
They aren't, which is what Fyron said. "Seekers are the only weapons that can be unaffected by storms." Since they never miss, a negative to-hit doesn't affect them. So storms have no effect. Phoenix-D |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I tend to favor weapons that have the highest ratio of Damage/KT Space/ROF or Damage/KT Space (First fire advantage). The problem with looking at Mineral cost of space when evaluating a weapon, is the space used has a hidden cost for the support components (ECM, Sensors, Engines, LS, Crew, Bridge, MC, etc.). If a weapon does costs 300KT less in Minerals, but does 75% the damage/KT of another weapon, the savings are probably not a good del because you need 4 ships for every 3 of the better weapon. One extra ship will cost about 4000+ KT of Minerals. Also, if you hit the ship limit in a game, optimizing your damage/KT because much more important than the cost of building a ship.
I would propose that you balance weapons by using Damage / KT Space / ROF. A highly effective weapon should have a ratio of about 2. Starting weapons should be something like .5. Weapons with special properties should have the efficiency multiplied by a factor. Make the ration times 1.5 if it skips shields and times 1.5 if it skips armor. If it skips normal shields consider it 1.5 as an early game weapon and a 1.0 as a late game weapon. Make to hit bonuses also multiply the efficiency. Currently in the game, PPBs top out over 2 and they are achieved early on. There are some Racial weapons that exceed that. When figuring out efficiency, always go by the Max damage. Range attentuation matters some, but assume players will send their ships to their highest damage range to fire. It is hard to deny an enemy from closing. If you move up to shoot first, they will move up even closer if they have to. Another interesting thing to note: Small DUC IIIs do 5 KT of damage per KT of space! They are a very efficient fighter weapon compared to most others considering the tech to get them is easy to acheive. Some weapons appear to be good because they have a large number, but when you divide by the big space, they are less effective (e.g. Graviton Hellbore or Torpedos). Removing Weapon Mounts might turn that affect around using Emissive armor as some have suggested. |
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Explain to me how seekers are affected by storms?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ships only have combat sensors if they have a Combat Sensor component on them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You wouldn't say that a WWI biplane had radar on it, would you? It can still track things by sight and fire upon them. A SE4 ship without combat sensors can still fire at and hit targets, just not as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
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[ February 01, 2003, 15:35: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
I am half blind anyway, can I obtain and install "advanced eyes"?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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Combat sensors represent sensors specifically designed for use in combat. If a ship has no combat sensor component, it does not have sensors specifically designed for combat, or combat sensors, if you will. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
There is no 'computer' component in a ship either unless you add the MC. So you would say that ships in SE don't have computers? Are all the races in SE instinctive pilots and navigators? (Not to mention marksmen.. err, marks-creatures?)
If it didn't have combat sensors it wouldn't be able to hit anything. You are playng semantic games. |
Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Of course they have computers. There is no "computer" component. They just don't have a Master Computer unless they have one of those components on them.
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Re: Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!
Still testing.
Ship size: -Allowing Escort an extra engine from 6 to 7. They are now very useful scouts. -Tweaking size of BB to 900kt, DN to 1200kt, Baseship to 2000kt, Battlestation to 1500kt, and Starbase to 3000kt. Weapon tweaks: -torpedoes get +15% to hit and reduced size to 40k -Missiles are reduced in size to 30k. -Plamsa Missile stays at 50k but can now pierce armor. -High Energy Weapons (Ripper,Incinerator,Wave Motion) cause Double damage to sheilds. -Graviton Hellbores can now pierce all shields -Massive Shield Depleter reload set to 5 -Massive Ionic Disperser reload set to 5 I will post my completed mod asap. Let me know what you think. |
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