KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

There have been many debates about whether there is an "Uber" race design or strat for SEIV (more specifically, KOTH).
I wish I could find that thread about offensive/defensive stacking... (can anyone help?)

Well, I'm observing that all winning KOTH players are doing the same thing. And if you fail to design your race the same way, you won't be able to compete against a player that does.

In my Last 2 matches, my ships suffered thoroughally abysmal performance, even with:
Attack: 114%
Defense: 113%

I also reasonably prioritize ECM and Sensor techs, armor, and fleet and ship training.

Why were ships shredded so easily? Because KOTH players have maxed their attack and defense racial traits (+20% each), took berserker (+10%).
They immediately research ECM and Sensor techs, armor, and fleet and ship training.

They most probably exploit the training facilities/moon strat to multiply training per round.

They attack first.

There are probably more things that enhance attack/defense which I failed to list, but that is the bulk. (Feel free to add anything I forgot).

So, I am warning (especially for anyone new) playing KOTH, that you will be quite a dead duck if you do not do the same. Opinions?

When I read the Posts about maximum offensive/defensive stacking, I really did not seem to realize how imporatant this was in one-on-one matches... but now I get it (oof!).
Essentially, this bores me, because racial design used to have a bit of variability and fun. Now everyone is forced to be a bunch of clones to even compete. I'm sure some players would debate this, but from my experience, I really don't see how...

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Sounds about right. I too have had numerically superior and I believe technically superior fleets completely slaughtered because my guys just couldn't hit the other guy due to his defensive bonus.

The other trait that I expect is important in the Maintenance value

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

yes, you are pretty much correct. maximizing combat bonus is essential in one-on-one games.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

In sports they call it fundamentals. If you want to win you have to be able to hit the cutoff man on a throw to home, or rebound, or tackle. It still leaves room for differences of strategy and what not. But the people who do the fundamentals will always beat those that don't. And those that do the fundamentals better will have the advantage over those that do them, but not as well.

Geoschmo

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Just for the record I won my first game with a negative in both attack and defense and my second now in turn 130 I have 100% in both and it has been a back and forth battle (although I suspect the writing is on the wall http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

So it is possible to win. It keeps you thinking knowing how crap your ships are though.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please splain this to me.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He's no doubt talking about placing the ship/fleet training facilities on a planet with moons to get ships trained faster.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

DavidG,

It is possible to win, I agree, but it would be a rare fluke against someone who maxes out the offensive/defensive bonus. If you played with no combat enhancements, you would never hit their ships. So you would need to catch them by mining them into a corner to limit their expansion, or surprise them with masses of seekers early in the game. But this is very unlikely. If it comes down to ship to ship combat, you'll be fried. No escaping the math.

Thermo- it's very nice to find a planet with a moon (2 is even better) and build ship or fleet training on each. You will get 3% training per facility (3 X 3 = 9% training per turn for a planet with 2 moons). Not bad, eh?

I just think we should be fair to the newbies who don't realize what is going on when they get slaugtered (and frustrated) because they don't realize what the fundamentals are:

For KOTH, ALWAYS create your race with Berserker trait and +20 attack and +20 defense.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

That is why I use the talisman.... my ships, always hit

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

But that is likely to not help much in KOTH games ZA. They don't Last long enough for Talismans to come into play, unless you want to fall way behind in researching the fundamentals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No doubt true but don't give up on the fun that can be had from slaughtering billions by poisoning their food. Just ask Zarix. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Maybe you can get the next person you match with to play a game where you don't pick 20/20/bezerk?

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Sigh,
25 turns into my first KOTH game, and it seems like I’m already screwed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Or maybe the choice of huge research, production and construction bonuses still can carry the day. We’ll see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Any comments on the other choices ?
Planet-type & Atmosphere.
Peaceful or bloodthirsty ?

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

You can not see your opponent's happiness type.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was more worried when you stole my ships faster then I could build them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I had to researh ship capture to get my own ships back.

With few changes in your strategy you would have already totally wrecked my empire. There are many alternatives to using ships in SE4. They just are pretty rarely used.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

/shameless plug

The Art of War mod is supposed to fix this (when it's eventually finished...)

/shameless plug

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

I don't read this website everyday like I used to, but what the heck is KOTH? I'm assuming it's some sort of PBM game, but the abbreviation escapes me. Will this strategy you're talking about work in a solo game?

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">King of the Hill

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

King of the Hill is a one-on-one tournament on PBW.
The games tend to be very fast, many as short as 40 turns, so it is wise to use more agressive tactics than usual for longer games.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Originally posted by Dralasite:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would seem unusual. I would estimate that most people don't want to be told how to create their race. And they don't necesarily want to broadcast their stats. And this would be a pain in the butt to enforce.

I've never created a 20/20/berserk race, but the next time I play KOTH, I most certainly will, just to be on a level playing field.

DavidG and Zarix,
I love using intel and other strategies, and have been on winning teams in big PBW games because of it. In big games, there are many variables, so even a talisman player (see: beating the Talisman thread) is not an unstoppable threat. I would expect a 20/20/berserk race would have the same problems. So I still see the flexibility I enjoy in larger PBW games.

The difficulty lies in one-on-one games: If you go for the intel route, it is very, very risky against an agressive 20/20/berserker. If you are building intel facilities, you are foregoing those precious research and mineral facilities... so that will obviously put you behind the 8-ball. If you aren't dead from and early assault, you will find you may do plenty of damage, but intel alone won't win you the war... even the ships you capture will fight with your stats, not his! It seems like a nice complimentary tactic, but you will still need to slug it out with ships. And if you can't hit, you can't hit...

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

As Fyron alluded (I think), choosing a warlike race also just makes plain sense in KOTH.

I also agree with his point about the Talisman being unrealistic in KOTH. You will never get to it. And the research you spend on it will rear it's ugly head when you are severely behind in all the fundamentals.

20/20/berserker is now the new fundamental start point. I have been playing SEIV from inception, I have listened to the good players, and watched what they do, and I am convinced.

Don't say that you haven't been warned...

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Many of your points are valid Stone Mill. I don't suggest that KOTH is the only way to play. And do not suggest a player good at KOTH would be good at all types of SEIV games. That variety is one fo the beauties of SEIV.

Even if every player has the 20/20/berzerker traits you suggest, that still leaves 13 characteristics to tweak and all the advanced traits to choose from in an effort to gain an advantage over your opponent. There is still lots of room for variety in empire setup. Koth is a min/maxers dream. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And then there is the luck of the starting positions to account for. And in-game execution of strategy.

I think a good indication of the popularity of the format is the players that keep coming back for more even though they keep getting spanked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Finding the formula for victory is the challange. Your suggestions are just one ingredient. An important one, but still just a part of the overall picture.

Personally though I would love the challange of a default or same empire setup. I think more than a few people would give it a try if it were suggested. Kind of like a stock car race. Then you'd really know it was all the skill of the driver.

Geoschmo

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Kind of like me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

But I don't mind losing. Each time I lose I come back as a better player. I set up my empire better, I begin the game faster and with better research options. I build my facilities in a better fashion in order to reap the benifits quicker. Each time I lose I will continue to tweak my stratagy until I can beat anyone as long as I play the game right. I didn't pick 20/20/berzerk this game but I might give it a try next game. We'll see how this game I'm in fairs and if this stratagy and settings worked.
But to me it's not about whether you win or lose. It's about whether you enjoy the game and learn from it no matter what. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suspect that 20/20/Merchant might do ok, too. Or 20/20/Warrior.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've thought about this too. It would be interesting. I even thought about the idea of each player making the other guys empire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif With a few rules. (ie no trait less than 80% and you have to use 2000 points or something like that) How bad an empire can you make and then what can do with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

hmmm, perhaps we'd best not speak here, but we find producing and expanding fast much more important then 20/20 attack/defense. all our games we played we never had 20/20, the most we ever got was 14/14 or so but even with 10/10 or less we could live, depends on how our points are distributed.
ok berserk is and was the only choice for a koth game.

so be fast and win would be our solution, perhaps the food contamination strategic could win games, one of our opponents almost did the job, but he lacked the planets to stop us long enough.

[ January 31, 2003, 18:27: Message edited by: Preacherman ]

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was unclear. I meant that you could find some people (Geoschmoe and others have already indicated their interest) to agree to a game where the players agree to not min max attack and defense or pick bezerk.

I just figured if people could agree to play a devnull match, they could agree to whatever they wanted.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Valid comments, fellas.

I love to bump up research, production and maintenance. When your ships perform like Gomer Pyle academy graduates, you will see the need to differ the points to attack/defense. What good is producing lots of ships and having more planets when they will all be fodder?

There is some flexibility, true; but not a whole lot of points left after you pay for 20/20. I guess that's why KOTH empires are starting to look like clones. Not that this is bad, I get your point. I also like the idea of the "stock" starting point.

True; You may choose warrior, or slightly reduce your attack/defense, but don't be surprised how much each one of those precious points counts... why?

Beyond making the empire, the combat enhancement stacking strategy involves going right for the techs that will snowball the combat percentages. If you don't do the same, you will get left behind before you know it.

Go ahead and try to research intel or minerals II, before you know it, ships with ECM and sensors will make your fleets look like target dummies.

I guess I'm just surprised how drastic this is; I kidded myself into thinking it really did not matter. My strat was based around ecomomy (expanding, colonizing, and choking off the enemy, and playing defensively until I was ready to attack en masse) which still works well, but not without the "fundamentals," souped up combat stats.

1FSTCAT and Rollo handed me my rear end on a platter (kills were like 50-1, their favor). A painful lesson indeed. I'm a slow learner sometimes, and the combat results bugged the heck out of me. They obviously caught on to this strat and are just too excellent to not press their advantage.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Well yes, playing a defensive game and being deficent in agg/def is a bad combination. You can get by with a lower agg/def and a higher rate of construction, but you have to press the attack early and often to get the full use of your advantage. Swarm the opponent before he has a chance to get a lot of colonies and ships, and before he can get the ECM and sensors that in addition to his racial bonus make the fights really lopsoded. Otherwise you are just waiting till they get better ships and can...well I don't have to tell you, you've seen it yourself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Another thing you can try is lowering your Def to 75, and just focus on attack skill. With those extra points, you might be able to eek out an advantage in another area...

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suspect that 20/20/Merchant might do ok, too. Or 20/20/Warrior.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The merchant would be at a 12-17% disadvantage in each area, and so would have a hard time overcoming that, esp. if the berzerker has lots of research and pushes for ECM, Combat sensors, and Training.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you do that, your ships will not hardly ever be missed, and they will die very quickly.

[ January 31, 2003, 20:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Merchant will have expanded quicker, and would have higher research. It's possible that he could overwhelm a bezerker.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you do that, your ships will not hardly ever be missed, and they will die very quickly.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, you would have to rely on numbers... Make a 120/75/Merchant with +15% Maint Reduction (total +20%) and you might have a chance. 20/20/Bezerker is probably better overall, but this design would be competitive, I think.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

How would a merchant have expanded more quickly? Sure, he can support a few more ships, but most of those early ships dont stick around for long, as they are colony ships.

The 125/75 with 20% maint redux would lose ships too quickly. Sure, you've got more of them, but they can't be missed. And, you get 12 less attack (+10 berzerk, -2 merchant).

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Nice thinking Spoon, but Fyron is right... your opponent could sit at maximum range and pick you to pieces, while some of your shots would still miss.

If you have faith in that idea, try it and let us know first hand.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Geo-

For the record, when I mention playing definsively, it does not mean I don't give my foe anything to worry about. It means I don't waste ships on minefields, and don't commit ships to fights I can't reasonably win. I like to invite the other player to make these mistakes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What you say is true; but it is true whether you play agressively or defensively. Your ships need to be able to effectively compete, whether early or later in the game.

Being able to constrain your oponnent's expansion takes a bit ok luck, after all. One shouldn't enter a contest hoping for such things with a weak hand.

[ February 01, 2003, 01:10: Message edited by: Stone Mill ]

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Playing 20/20/berzerker is not the only way to go in one-on-one games. But it is a tried and true strategy.
I disagree that taking religious is not worth it. I have played a few one-on-one games in the past. The two times that I took religious I was able to get the talisman in time and both times it gave me the win.
If both players agree, there are ways to force hard choices and make empires different.
a) play with 0 race points
b) play with 2000 race points, players must take one racial tech
c) play with 3000 race points, players must take two racial techs

jm2c,
Rollo

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like this idea. Making it so that players must take at least 1 or 2 racial techs. I think that would prove to be interesting in 1 on 1 games. Maybe Geo could take that into consideration and making it mandatory that you select at least 1 racil tech. But that would be pushing it probably.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

I have no intention of making any such choices mandatory. But cetainly if anyone wants to agree to mandate it for their game that is doable.

Geoschmo

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Well the numbers are in. Races that take 100% or less in both attack and defense win 100% of the time. This highly statistically relevent fact based on my two KOTH games. So there are ways to do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Ok, ok DavidG, thanks for the proof!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

No one is disputing that you can win on PBW or in KOTH without combat stacked settings...

What does matter is what settings your opponent is using.

Let us know the outcome after you have faced a 125/125/berserker, and I'm sure you will eventually. You may be surprised!

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ha not likely!! I already got enough surprises Last game. After this discussion I'll be taking that too. Maybe when I get smacked down to the bottom of the hill I'll try that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think you are probably right in this thread. I haven't played enough one on one games to know. I do know that not choosing 125/125 etc does not absolutly guarantee a loss as so many seem to be implying.

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For what it's worth, David G's Last game he was a 100/100 scientist, and his opponnent was a 120/110/worker. Not 125/125 to be sure, but pretty compelling evidence that a deficency in those two stats is not a guarantee of defeat.

Of course if your mind is already made up on the basis of numerical comparisons then real world experience is not likely to influence your opinion much. But that's ok too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's like saying playing blackjack once you hit on a 19, drew a 2, and won. Compelling evidence that hitting on a 19 doesn't guarantee a loss. Of course it doesn't guarantee a loss, but it still isn't a very good idea.

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

this whole thread means that 20/20/berserker is a default settings? I don't like it. I will ask my next opponent to play at least without berserker or reducing some other setings. This becomes not very interesting when the victory is defined by your starting position. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: KOTH: Attack of the Clones
 

Just resurrecting this thread for reference.

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I like the "must select racial tech" idea, I might see if my next oponant will play this rule next game...