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Fundamentals and Gamey
Call me crazy, call me dumb and not a sport, but its not the way for a game that was meant to bring RP aspect into a non-RP world wit gamey tactics and calling them "fundamentals" as Geo stated somewhere.
You all should by now know what im talking about. Max tech? ok, 50% intilligence. Always 50% on ground combat and political savvy unless its a REAL long going game. As well, 51% in ER wont hurt, you'll just get it from the reproduction. The points? Its aint no fun. While i agree its fully agreeable by the game it is similar to cheating in other games. Dont get too excited, i will explain myself. What is cheating, speaking from a non-cheater perspective? This is a serious edge for the other player that makes it a sure win for him. You can win, but only if you cheat. Why am i saying this? For KOTH people been maxing out their attack/defense and taking berzerker race ending up with a nice 130% base chance to hit and to not be hit. The point, in this case unless you choose the same thing you're screwed. You simply cannot hit someone (well, not as much as needed) with a base of 130% defense unless you have 130% attack yourself, and vice versa - you cannot survive his onslaught with 130% base attack if you dont take 130% defense yourself. I agree that by coincidence and luck and brilliant mind this *MIGHT* be overcomed but thats not the way. I know im opening a big can of worms, but i just can not not post it. |
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You might like to know that those problems are being fixed in my Starscape mod. I'm modifying the point cost percent increases and minimums/maximums to promote better balance.
Of course, the more beta testers I get, the better I can balance this feature. |
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You are, however, using a straight-up kill or be killed game as the basis for your conclusions. The KOTH games are not meant to be RP in any way, shape, or form. They are about who is the best player, who can tweak their empire and strategies for maximum effectiveness. In an RP game you'll see something completely different. People will set-up their empires in such a way as to be fun to play and to interact with. As to some of your specific points; yes, in a max tech game you would lower your intelligence stat. This would represent a race that is no longer spending their resources on research. Same goes for a no-intel game. None of this is cheating. Cheating is breaking the rules. In this case that would mean hacking files or taking actions that are contrary to an individual game's description and set-up. Quote:
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you sure? *takes a quick glance around*
lucky noone knows where i live http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif |
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my point is, a lot players take those 50%'s in most of their games. when someone does that, you have the choice of either being a genious and winning or doing same thing and having chances or not doing or being any of the above and dying.
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ok, i go a little radical but still.
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One of the unique things about Starscape is that RP is actually rewarded in the game itself. You can use a dynamic roleplaying system to actually invent your own components, facilities, etc. which are then unique to your race, but you can sell them to others if they are willing to buy them. (it's even possible to RP with an ally and invent stuff as a joint effort - for example the Unity Starbase in Starfleet Command III)
There are a number of other RP-related things, such as politics and exploration, as well as an independent mIRC-based classic RPG game in the tradition of the old tabletop RPG's which can be played (usually on the weekends) and will have effects in the game itself. Imagine creating a character as the captain of one of your largest in-game flagships and giving him a daring mission on an alien world, and he ends up discovering a new technology that your empire can then use in the game... It's also possible for races to carryover thier accomplishments from past games into the next game. Races are either indigenous or non-indigenous (non-indigenous is usually reserved for the players who are playing the same race in a new game-region). Non-indigenous races start with technology based on thier previous levels (though none of the fields will be as high), but won't have any planets to start with. They have a massive colony ship and must find a viable world to colonize, so although they will have better tech than the indigenous races, they won't have the resources of a homeworld to use, and the indigenous races (with the resources of thier homeworlds) will likely advance much faster, and should be able to catch up to the non-indigenous races by the time they have established a colonial empire with a similar economy value. RP also plays a part in allowing races to creatively discover new technology, aside from the old method of colonizing planets with ruins on them, game-events (which I, as the gamemaster create) can give players "quests" which they can complete to find new technology. Of course, all of this is driven by my dynamic mod-updating system which allows me to make changes to the actual mod data without disrupting the flow of the game. Hopefully this post wasn't incredibly off topic, but I figure we're talking about RP versus Gamey, and my mod aims to eliminate Gamey while promoting RP to the maximum extent. After all, that's what Starscape for Stars! did. SEIV just gives me so much more flexibility... |
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Yea calling taking %50 in a trait cheating is pretty radical. I also kind if curious how everyone seems to know what everyones stats are in the KOTH??? In my current game I only took 100% in both defense and offense and while I may eventually lose the game is at turn 135 or so and is the most fun game I've ever played. And that is the whole point right?
I think if the %50 thing really bothers you you should try some mod that changes this. I know Fyrons Adamant mod (which is still a work in progress) changes things so that take %50 is not really worth it. I'm sure there are others. |
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Calling this gamey or even cheating opposed to role-playing races makes no sense to me.
Hey, how about if I like to role-play a highly combat effective and aggressive race? Ever think about that? Rollo |
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I don't see the gameiness or cheating of this either. I think it is perfectly fine if someone wishes to go 50% in one area or boost their defensive capibilties by 20%.
I haven't done it in a KOTH game but from what I hear it will greatly inprove my chances of winning if I choose these settings. So I may have to do that for my next game. But for any of my other PBW games I wouldn't do it unless I'm RPing a highly agressive and defensive race. Which most of the time I'm not, I try to be peaceful and allie with alot be different races. As long as the game permits it then it is not cheating. If they were hacking the files and making it to where they could get 130 in aggressive abilities then yes that is cheating. But as long as they do these things in the game paramerters then there is nothing wrong with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But I can still see where you are coming from. |
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still a newbie, but I can understand your frustration. I wouldn't call it gamey or cheating, but a limited competition. In explaination..
I like race designs that have an unmatched construction ability. I have worked on one for SP that is quite impressive, and I have done it without using the temporal race ability. If I add that, it will be even more awsome. However, I have to take defiencies in other areas. That is part of the balance of it. I know you can find out what bonus abilities a ship has, and what race abilities a race has by looking in the right spot. If a frontal assualt has proved difficult at best, perhaps you should concentrate on their weaknesses. If they chose to have reduced happiness to make that 130% A&D, then make a bunch of kamikaze radiation bombers, heavy on the armor. Every strength of that magnitude, has an equal weakness somewhere. you just have to learn to exploit those. If a race has undefeatable ships, then attack other parts of the empire. Kinda hard to support those ships with no frigging minerals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I have other ideas on how to deal with ubercombat but I am not going to tip my hand just yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Edit in: I got blitzed with IM Messages and lost my train of thought here. What I mean by a "limited game" is things like a super-construction race is probably useless. So the challange is limited to developing a race that can deal with kill or be killed strategies and settings. [ February 01, 2003, 16:09: Message edited by: couslee ] |
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Couslee: i disagree. race with the settings: 50%, 120%, 100%, 52%, 125%, 110%, 125%, 110%, 125%, 125%, 50%, 115%, 80%, 102%, 120%, 50%, 105% would be quite difficult to be caught by their weaknesses -- namely the low ground combat, they can simply load their more important planets with WP's that will always hit you. There is realy little one can do with such a race, without taking similar stats. (designed with 3k and 120% intilligence) |
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"What I mean by a "limited game" is things like a super-construction race is probably useless."
It's not, really. You just have to A. be prepared the accept massive losses and B. make sure you have a LOT of ships, preferably more advanced than your opponent's. Playing defensive with this strategy doesn't work..they get bigger than you and use the size of their empire to out-produce you despite your better per-yard construction. Phoenix-D |
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You can also right click on their race flag displayed on the info section of the main screen when veiwing any of their ships, planets, etc.
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Actaully I didn't mean my oponents stats (I know how to do that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). I meant everyones . Clearly everyone is not taking 20/20 beserker. Me for example.
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People have been making assumptions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Players in all sorts of games will of course attempt to min/max as much as they can. But a few things will limit this from becoming some sort of "standard".
First of all, there are a lot of settings. Most everybody that understands how combat in SEIV works will agree that high aggressivness and defensivness are important for success, and poor numbers in either or both of these is a recipie for failure. But that is only two of 15 characteristics, and then you have all the advanced traits to choose from. Even if everybody chose chose 125/125/berzerker, that doesn't exactly mean that race choices have suddenly become "one dimensional". That combination takes 3000 racial points. So there is plenty of room for diversity. In a 2000 point game you'd have to get 1000 points from somewhere? But where do you get them? Are your choices better than the other guys? In a 5000 point game you still have 2000 points to spend. But on what? Thats where the differences come in to play. But chances are it's not going to get to that extreme. A wise player will try to throw some points in those categories, but does he need 125 in each? Would it be sufficent to get 110 in each and bezerker and spend those racial points in some other areas? Or maybe someone will take 120 in one and leave the other at 100? Yes, a player that takes 75/75/merchant is going to have really hard time dealing with a 125/125/bezerker one on one. But would a 110/110/merchant? Could his concentration in economics make up the difference? Possibly, if he is a skilled player. Also, keep in mind that a player that is 125/125/bezerker is going to have a big target on his chest in the early game. A smart player is constantly sizing up opponents in the game to decide who would be wise to leave around until the end. If you were faced with a choice between a 100/100 merchant and a 125/125/bezerker as neighbors, wouldn't you tend to team up with the merchant and go after the bezerker very early on? And you'd look for other allies to join in the fight. The same sort of principle is what limits the religious races from becoming totally dominant in the game. I am not suprised someone has equated fundamentals with gaminess. But that's not specific to SEIV. Fundamentals get a bad rap in sports even. How many pro basketball players are great free throw shooters? How much respect do the kickers get in football? And how many baseball fans go to games to watch good defense? But those things are what all good teams do reasonably well, and all great teams do very well. They are what separates the teams with lots of talent from the teams that win championships. Geschmo |
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geo, my major point is MIN/maxing. i know what you are saying, but then again - something that requies early kill, special strategies, banding together isnt too good. at all.
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Banding together? I thought KOTH was one on one with no AIs.
Other PBW games are of course a different story, I guess. |
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I agree with Taera's frustration somewhat, as I have posted in the thread I started (KOTH: Attack of the clones). But I don't think it is cheating.
I don't think it is right to keep beating the wind out of newbies who get discouraged because their ships can't hit. But most players here are top notch and don't mind giving out strategy tips, and telling them why they are doing poorly. I'd rather it weighed more heavily on the tactics and decisions you made during the game, and not so much on how you made your race. And it's a shame that an "average race" (without the fundamentals, so to speak) would get pounded 99% of the time against a 20/20/berserker. Originally posted by Geo: Quote:
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Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
Taera,
I've been trying to test those settings you listed in the thread. However, you appear to have 2 too many of them. Which of them are redundant or am I missing something? Thanks, Ken |
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Sounds like I need to finish my balance mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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PvK, my Adamant Mod borrowed a lot of ideas from the Balance Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
// WARNING! LONG MESSAGE AHEAD! //
In order. (if you're too lazy to read it all, you can skip and go to the next comment) Geo: what i see is - there is already one thing that requies early wipe out -- talisman. Early wipe out is not a strategy but sometimes the only choice. Then it becomes not as much a strategy already. With MIN/maxing, which i suspect is already widespread in PBW (judging from TDM, comments on this forum and some other sources i cant recall), and with top-notch players all around, to simply have a chance to win one must take those MIN stats down. back to the topic though - there is already one racial setup out there requing early wipe out, as almost the only chance, and another one which would be difficult (no matter how many ships you have, 1% to hit opposed to much higher numbers isnt good. 1% is still 1%. what i mean, no guarantees you would be able to actually wipe the target out) to even wipe out together and early on, it no longer becomes a strategy game with a wide variety of races and players but a plain tournament who plays better, without the variety offered by racial setup. To make long story short, this seems to be a common practice and it removes an important part of the game - racial setup and characteristics. Counter... the only counter is a mad early attack which is almost doomed to failure (unlike talisman, this player has the advantage all along). I know the value of counters, this one simply doesnt look too well. Javaslinger - i've been using 3k, my favorite setup and as it seems also common inbetween the other players. Now to clarify my point, as i seem to have been misunderstood. I do not talk against MAXING, what i dont like (easy words) is the MINNING (which i've been highlighting all along). Read my first post, i've talked about 50%'s. And i do not say, and did not have the intention to say, that min/maxing is cheating. I do see it as an abuse to a certain degree but i do not press that point. The pararel to cheats was drawn because like the cheats, you have four options - die, do the same, be a real genius, quit. I dont think that there are many people here that would figure a way to make ships hit more with a base -20% (considering 110/merchant) and to be hit less, with same disadvantage. If the 125/125/berzerk player is even a little smart he'll go for things that increase his bonuses - ecm/sensors early and stealth/scattering armors. Now once again. I know that most of the people here tend to disagree with most of my points, but i just bring my points of view on a matter that had not been actively discussed before. |
Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
Look for other games that have more racial limits. I read somewhere using a zero racial points, and at least one advanced trait is a real challnge. Other options would be to put design limits like "none over 120, none under 80" and flexability would be determined by the starting points you get. KOTH is just type of game. If it does not suit your taste in game play, don't play it. If you want to test your metal against a 125/125 bezerker, join in and give it your best shot. That goes for any MP competition. When you have games like SEIV and Stars! that have a very wide choice of race settings, your going to have a wide variety of challanges available. An unlimited settings game is not any more wrong or right than a limited settings game.
Don't get wrong, I can certainly understand your frustration and POV. Perhaps what is needed is more of a variety of restricted settings games. I am not playing any PBW games yet, so I don't the make-up of the majority of available games. You could always host one yourself, and set it up anyway you like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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I think we do read you Taera. Its a question of balance. When Aaron first designed the game, I'm sure he did his best to balance the various traits. Only after much play could we observe inequities.
For instance, you can reduce strength, resistance, repair and organics (except for organic races) to 50% with no effect at all on your chances of winning! At the same time, you have all these extra free points to apply elsewhere. Almost everything else (exception: reproduction) you can safely reduce to 80%. And those you do choose to reduce, again free up points to use elsewhere. But you don't dare reduce aggressiveness, defensiveness or maintenance. Points freed up by reducing these will not give you enough bang in the other areas. You will never overcome the deficit you've created. I'm sure Aaron didn't intend this imbalance, in fact he's probably more disappointed in the result than we are. Also I'm not saying reducing certain traits is the best thing. What I'm saying is reducing most traits will not hurt your chances of winning the game. For instance setting minerals 80%, organics 50% and rads 80% will not hurt my chances of winning. To compensate I can take an extra advanced trait and still have high numbers in the three key areas and most of the others. But perfect balance is not there. Nor do I even think "perfection" is possible. But it could certainly be better than the current set up. I have played Proportions and PvK has done much work trying to balance these. I applaud the effort. At first I wanted to scream! He was taking away all my favorite selections. But I calmed down and realized he was changing the balance for the better. How close to the ideal it is I don't know, but I'll bet PvK is always thinking about ways to tweak it. In effect, Taera, we agree with you, but we enjoy this game too much to quit, so we work with what we have. Kim |
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change "no effect at all" to "almost no effect" and "You will never overcome the deficit you've created." to "you will have difficulty overcoming..." and I would agree 100% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I think one of the great things about Se4 is you can win with a large variety of strategies. Taking a negative or no bonus in attack and defense does not guarantee a loss. [ February 02, 2003, 16:55: Message edited by: DavidG ] |
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Basically, the question is the difference the players skill or the racial setup? The question is not an easy one to answer. And Taera, even if I don't agree with you I think it's great that people bring up these points. I have been arguing similer arguments for almost two years now on these forums, and I have played a LOT of games. My actual experience is a strong factor in my opinion.
I lose more than my fair share of games. I have a reputation as a great player, and that's really not justified. I think I have just been around long enough that people think I must be good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But I have lost a lot of games to players that had lower agg/def stats than me, and I have beaten plenty of players that had higher. Your list of characteristics, racial choices, and research priorities would make a good solid combination in a game. But by no means an unbeatable one. You could program an AI that would do all the things you suggest, and it would still lose to even an average skill level player. But in a game with players of fairly equal tactical skill, it could very well make the difference. I don't see this as a problem however. It's part of the game. Something has to make the difference. Geoschmo [ February 02, 2003, 16:58: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Quikngruvn |
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But as Geoschmo suggests, even more important than all of this is player skill-- the true deciding factor. |
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What SEIV really needs is to take a lesson from Stars! and release a patch that will allow modders to optionally set an exponent increase factor for each stat. Then, it will be less about min/max and thresholds and more about mathematics. The higher the stat goes, the more points it should cost to increase it, so that the costs go up exponentially.
For instance, it might take 1 point to go from Agressiveness 100 to 101, but maybe 2 points to go to 102, and 4 to reach 103, 8 for 104, 16 for 105, 32 for 106, and so on. That expample may be a little steep, but you get the idea, and the values should be definable for each stat in the settings file. I've been tweaking the current settings and messing around with thresholds for a while now but I can't seem to find any settings I really like; none that would seem to create perfect (or at least near perfect) balance. I sometimes find myself yearning for Stars!' old race creation wizard... It may have been old and it had its flaws, but you really had to think, and plot, and compute, to get a "monster race" with it, and even then, chances are someone would think of something totally radical that you hadn't thought of that was just as good or even better, and discovering those races and the players who played them was part of the fun. |
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I look at it this way. Everyone starts with the same number of points, which is perfectly fair. Then you set up your race the way you choose, which is also perfectly fair. Now, your overall game plan has to be coordinated from the first click of setting up the race until the game is over. You need to set up your empire knowing how you set up your strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly. You have to be flexible to adapt to the in-game specifics, but so does everyone else; again fair. Now managing your empire relations is as important to your game plan as anything else. Sizing up other races as targets, allies, co-conspirators, or whatever should be done with your game plan and your relative strengths/weaknesses in mind.
One of my favorite games is "Risk". In that game, if you are playing with good players, it is often not the seemingly most powerful player that wins. Position, alliances (yes, with some backstabbing too), and timing make all the difference. The same is true in SE4. If you are leading in position #1, be prepared for everyone else to see you as a threat. If you are "sucking the hind tit" (pardon my French), then you are not seen as a threat. In either case, you have to play accordingly. I can remember playing Risk with this one guy who would always position himself around 3rd or 4th place during most of the game and he would always win by a combination of tactics. He would get the strong guys to fight each other and weaken themselves, he would ally with others to strengthen his position, he would strike at the perfect time. All these apply to SE4 and to consider them "gamey" is to lose the flavor of the game. Yes, there are good players out there, and being beat by them is a good way to learn. It is easy to get into an always-win mode when playing agains the AI and then feel slighted when a human cleans your clock. The goal is to learn from each mistake, take your lumps and one day come back to be king of the hill (to borrow a cool title). Slick. |
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There is a difference between gamey and skill. Skill is legit and fun, gamey is lame and no fun.
Gamey is when the rules are set up so as to limit variety in play by having one combination that works so well that everyone uses it. That may be fine for some who consider the whole race design part to be just some annoying part you have to go through to get to the actual game, but for many it's part of the gaming experience. Some factors of race creation have a much more significant effect on the game than others, and yet they are treated the same when it comes thier cost in points. As such, you have people minimizing the least effective stats and then putting those points into the areas that are most effective. 9 out of 10 players will end up essentially playing the same race, with very few or very superficial differences between them. The result is a stale game experience. This has nothing to do with skill, and it amazes me how many people seem to be completely oblivious to this. This whole discussion is about how certain flaws in the game rules can eliminate or at least severely hamper the possibilites of creativity and variety in the game. Anyone who tries to be different or creative is squashed because they didn't copy everyone else and create an uber-race. And the "you're better off because your score is lower and nobody considers you a threat" argument is crap, trust me. I've played enough games to know this. If people don't consider you a threat because your race sucks, the fact of the matter is, your race sucks and you might as well give up now and not even waste your time. |
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Shadowstar: I for one disagree with your definition of gamey. I think they only thing that is gamey is taking atvantage of an obivous bug.
A lot of people seem to be saying that certain stats are a must and thus everyone (9 out of 10 you say) will be choosing the same setup. The problem with this argument is it is NOT happening. At least not in the few PBW games I'm in. A review of the other races in my games reveals quite a lot of variety. Including several races with Physical bonuses (even one God-Like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ) |
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Shadowstar, I must say I've played a lot of games too and my experience is not anything like your experience.
I rarely see these highly min/maxed races in actual games. People usually fall into one of two Groups. One believes such a min/max race would be overwhelmingly powerful and as such is cheesy and not worth considering. The other group believes that the min/max race is not as overwhelmingly powerful as it appears and that it has weaknesses that make it not worth considering. The result is it ends up being more of an acedemic discussion than a real in game problem. Geoschmo |
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In one-on-one games, such as KOTH, there will be drastic differences in what race setup is most effective. These games cannot be compared to MP games like normal PBW, etc.
In a normal game, the advantages from a "superior" setup are balanced out by the multitude of players. If someone were to somehow be an uber-threat, then all other players would band together for their mutual defense. Look at what happens to religious-psychic players on PBW. It's like posting a sign: "Kill me first! I want to die!" Players with superior production or trade or intelligence or research can all get an edge on someone with a 125/125/beserker setup--especially in a 2000 RP game. Bottom line--there is no "uber" strategy. A while ago, someone tried to prove that 125/125/beserker with enhanced construction was unbeatable--just build frigates with the latest level of DUC. He was right--it was hard to hit his ships--except that he had to remove engines to fit an extra DUC, also lowering his supplies, and his research was slower, and his production was lower, and the enemy had to be within 2-3 systems for his ships to be effective, and the enemy could expand tons faster, and they could just use missile ships/ramming ships/organic armor/PPB/whatever... There are so many ways to play that no one characteristic or trait dominates the game. It does come down to "hitability"--eventually; but there are numerous ways to beat a "superior" player before you face him in combat. A consistently winning race needs to be just as good politically and economically as militarily, at least on PBW. SP against the AI, all bets are off. |
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I'll admit that SEIV is better than many of the games out there when it comes to this, but it does have its flaws, and what I talked about DOES happen, and it happens more than it should. If you haven't seen it, tell me what games you're playing, please!
The mere fact that this thread even exists proves my point, as well as all the balance mods and race creation mods which have been made and which are being made at this moment. Ignorance is no solution. All I'm asking for is a way to make race creation points work on an exponential scale system. I think it would go a long way towards fixing the existing problems. |
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shadowstar, i agree with your defenition of gamey.
I will be unavailable for a week, i'll continue this discussion when im back. Srry for not attending my own thread. |
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And please direct me to all the balance mods? There have been many suggested in the Last two years, but as far as I am aware none have been completed. Although I think PvK's mod sounds very promising. It sounds to me as if all these people think the game is unbalanced and then realize it's not as bad as they thought. How does a race creation mod prove the game is unbalanced? If anything that might demonstrate the AI is weak in this game, but I would support you in that argument. Geoschmo |
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Adamant mod (still in the works) has incorporated many ideas proposed by PvK and others for his balance mod. Go check it out (linked in my sig). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Unfortunately, this requires knowing a lot of non-apparent factoids about the game. It's sad to me that people invest a lot of time developing and playing empires, only to lose the game horribly because they didn't realize that maintenence reduction subtracts from the base, or that your chance to hit can quite easily drop to 1% unless you pour some points into aggressiveness. -spoon |
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Spoon, I agree with you there. But I think that that's what's great about these discussions. People can learn why their ships keep getting toasted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
That's the main reason I started the KOTH league. Because for me two players games is where I learned almost everything I know about SEIV strategy and mechanics. The big games are fun as are the RP games, but you gotta have combat to learn how it works. And you gotta have the game more along fairly quickly so you can try new theories and see their resolution before you foget what you werre trying to do in the first place. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Geoschmo [ February 05, 2003, 01:10: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
To get down to 1%..hmm. The worst you can get from a purely racial design perspective is 135%.
That's equivilent to three squares of distance, or a little more than the Stealth+Scattering bonus. 100% aggressiveness, max tech, BC hull. They get: 60% (ECM III) + 30% (armor) + 35% (racial) 145% You get: 65% (Sensor III) Fleet and ship advantages cancel. The attacker in this situation has a 80% disadvantage- or 20% to hit -at range 1-. If he had gone Beserker + 25% agression, the to-hit would be 55%. Phoenix-D |
Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
Quote:
MinMaxer: 125/bezerk/ecm3/armor6 vs. Noob: 100/scientist(eg)/sensor3 giving Noob a PointBlank chance to hit of 40%. If MinMaxer is fighting MaxWeapRange, Noob would have 1% to hit at range 4 or greater. Two bezerkers facing each other would have 75% at point blank, and 35% at range 4. [ February 05, 2003, 05:05: Message edited by: spoon ] |
Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
He meant +25 from racial characteristic, +10 from culture.
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Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
Quote:
125 defense/bezerker vs. 75 aggressive/engineer Still, having 1% to hit is not uncommon for a lot of new (and not so new) players. Though, admitedly, half of that comes from failure to use Training Facilities (the other half from not raising aggressiveness). Makes me think the Minimum chance to hit should be a lot higher, like 30%... (moddable, I know) |
Re: Fundamentals and Gamey
Spoon, the 135% was comparing to the base of 100%. I.e. A 35% increase.
and if you don't train, you are -screwed-. That's an entirely different subject. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Phoenix-D |
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