OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

Right now on CNN they are showing the space shuttle Columbia break up during re-entry. Impacts heard in Texas.

[ February 01, 2003, 14:43: Message edited by: One Eyed Jack ]

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just saw it. This is very sad news.

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Was just talking to my mom, she said she heard 3 or 4 back to back booms. kinda like the sound you hear when trains are being coupled to the cars.
She lives just outside the Dallas area.

Sad news indeed. Hopefully now NASA can get some more funding to replace the near 30 yr old shuttle fleet.

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Actually, the first shuttle flew in 1981 so they're 'only' 22 years old at most. But that's plenty. The hell of it is, the shuttle program is no closer to being replaced now than it was in 1986 when the Challenger was lost. It was supposed to be a stop-gap while the 'space plane' was developed and NASA has never gotten enough funding to develop that replacement. I wonder if they will get funding now, or if this is the death of NASA as well as those astronauts. No one, Republican or Democrat, has been friendly to the space program for decades. Once we finished the Apollo project interest just collapsed.

[ February 01, 2003, 15:29: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

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Wow, that is hard to believe. I didn't get to see it on the news or nothing but I just read it on the CNN web site.

"than it was in 1898 when the Challenger was lost".

You mean we've had space missions since 1898? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm sure that was a typo.

If I had billions of dollars I'd fund NASA. I love seeing space stuff on TV and seeing new discovories come around.
But I don't have that kind of money. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ February 01, 2003, 15:31: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When the shuttle was new, Britian was working on an orbital launch vehice that used a hybrid(air breathing when in the atmosphere) engine. It was to be an alternative to the shuttle when it got old. Never heard about that again.

*Sigh* Richard P. Feynman was pretty critical about safety measures on the shuttle program. But seriously, what bailout procedure could possibly exist for Mach 20 at 200,000 feet.

[ February 01, 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

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It is very, very sad news! I heard this wierd noise, like a mix between an explosion and a sonic boom. Went outside to see what it was. There is a Naval Air station and LTV about 5 miles away. I thought they might be testing a new aircraft. Looked around for the Jet, and saw this white object falling. I felt sick. Because, I knew what it was!

<font color=purple>mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font>

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I heard it. I thought someone had backed into my fence with their car...I'm shocked now that I know what it really was. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

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Horrable news. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif What is the cause ? There was certainly no fuel on board. Just simple mechanical breakup ?

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Good God what a tragedy! I was up watching the Nasa channel when it happened. (Government/Public access Tv.) This is just horrible.

Could it have been a bomb?

[ February 01, 2003, 16:20: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's extremly unlikely that this was anything other than just an engineering failure. The shuttle is a complex piece of machinery. Millions of things have to go right every time it flies for it to return safely. And the margin for error is so small. It's not like a car that can roll to a safe stop if the engien fails. If something breaks, things go very bad very quickly.

It's a damn shame is what it is.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

Even at 22 yrs old, one also has to take into account the number of flights. Things get old, things get worn out, and even tho they may pass a saftey test, under extreem situations they may still fail. I read somewhere (iirc) that the Challanger was on it's 11th or 12th mission already when it exploded on take off. Imagine how many trips have been made since then.

On a side note, the Columbia had a mission delayed for some reason, which caused the Challanged mission to be bumped back a few days. The fleet is old. Pleople don't even like 20 yr old cars esp with high milage because of the potential for problems.

It's time for a new shuttle fleet. And until they get the funding for that, I fear we may see other fatal failures become more often. (I hope not).

From Reuters:
"Columbia is NASA's oldest shuttle and first flew in 1981".
It does not say when it was built, most likely at least a year or more before it's maiden voyage. And look at the technological advances made since then.
From AP:
"On Jan. 16, shortly after Columbia lifted off, a piece of insulating foam on its external fuel tank came off and was believed to have hit the left wing of the shuttle. Leroy Cain, the lead flight director in Mission Control, assured reporters Friday that engineers had concluded that any damage to the wing was considered minor and posed no safety hazard."

NASA should take a hint from SEIV, and put a "repair bay" module on the ISS.

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Even though this shuttle mission has been described as "flawless", I agree with the previous posters in thinking mechanical failure. Investigators currently have little to work from regarding a cause. A tape is making the news rounds of what appears to be ice or a tile falling from the fuel tanks and striking the shuttle wing during launch that investigators are reviewing. However, this is not exactly an uncommon occurrence. In the break up replay many reporters are focusing on what looks to be an explosion (secondary not root cause).

Lots of early reports concerning debris falling coming out of Nacogdoches Texas, both town and county as well as other areas. People are warned to avoid debris due to potential life threatening toxins released by the fuel from the shuttle as it evaporates. Can cause slow suffocation in a 48 hr. period if inhaled. Call your local law enforcement agency if you spot debris. Do not approach.

Some people are sending pictures via the web of debris in their yard to news agencies.

I love the space program and watching this stuff hurts.

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Been watching this stuff since about 9am est. It had become so routine we forget how dangerous it is. Sorta like the first Portuguese explorations and Columbus era ventures toward the east.

Rips my heart out to see this sort of thing happen.

We need to build another, and make it bigger and better and safer.

[ February 01, 2003, 17:14: Message edited by: Tenryu ]

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Widely considered to be unlikely. The shuttle has very strict weight limits. So it couldn't have been hidden prior to launch. You can pick aprt other terrorist possibilities as well.

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this is all very sad. i have not heard about this before. what saddens me the most is that the elite of our space astronauts AND scientists were burned in atmosphere.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That doesn't make any sense, as a bomb works just as well if not better if you set it off well before re-entry.

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This is indeed a tragic day in history. I believe that the best way to honor the crew of Columbia (and the crew of Challenger) is to keep NASA and the space program up and running. These fine people knew the risks and choose to accept them in the persuit of science. I salute their bravery, respect their choice and honor there memory. May their dream live long and prosper.

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Seven explorers
Fearless into the unknown
Spirits shall not die

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is, indeed, a very sad day for the space program, and I couldn't agree with you more David. Let's hope this turns into a wake-up call for a new approach (perhaps the spaceplane or something similar), rather than a rationale for shutting the program down (as I'm sure some politicians will argue).

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As previus stated, it's a sad day.
But one can't say it's becouse the shuttles are old.
They're constantly being upgraded, and serviced.
They are supposed to be able to handle 100 take offs.

It could have been made yesterday and still crash, **** happens.
In sweden we built this great warship a couple of years ago, the Wasa. It sunk on it's maiden voyage out of the harbour!
There is always a risc, and sometimes it's worth taking. These people knew that.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. I seriously doubt NASA is just screwing around when it comes to maintenance. And even if Columbia is the oldest, it's not the most flightworn, the Discovery is (having about 30 launches to the Columbia's 21).

Bombs are damned unlikely as NASA engineers have certainly gone through the shuttle with a fine-toothed comb fifty dozen times before launch, and a missile is just damned near impossible.

Was probably a random mechanical problem, or one part of it needed to be gone over another ten dozen times than it already was.

As far as shutting down the space program, who wants to stay on this boring planet forever? Just hope we don't forget about the poor guys in the ISS in the meantime, though they reportedly have a good 4-5 months of supplies.

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Truely, this is a horrible tragedy.

I must say, though, that, I do not feel putting the space program on hiatus is a good idea either. IIRC When the whole Challenger fiasco occured, the space program was put on hold for a while, not good IMHO.

Yes, this was a HORRIBLE accident, and yes, some time should be taken for us to mourn those brave men and women who died, in the name of science and furthering our understanding of the world around us, but, we should not pause the entire space program.

When one falls off a horse, does one simply give up, or does one get back on the horse, and, try again?

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I also saw it in the news. Even in Belgium almost the whole news was dedicated to this catastrophy.
I was amazed by some of the comments: Apparently NASA people are NOT worried if debris slams into the shuttle. It happens all the time they say. Huh? When are they worried???

I believe that space exploration might one day save this planet. Think about the asteroids that might (and will!) come our way. How are you going to defend against that when you are not knowing what you are dealing with? That's one of the reasons why space exploration is necessary.

Other comments on TV said this might delay the program by some 2 years. Off course this is pure speculation but that wouldn't be very positieve.

Also, imagine what an explosion this must have been when people on the ground could hear it. It's just unbelievable. *sigh* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wish I could forget it. Seeing the images on the local news of smoking debris on a field where I have played football is just too much. I can't stop thinking about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

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i hope they dont cancel the space program. one thing that will help keep it alive is that the us does not use rockets to launch payloads very much anymore. also there are the 4, or is it now 3, independent companies/people trying ot win the couple million in prize money to make a new reusable vehicle. now that private enterprise is in this, we should see some new innovations in the future. hopefully.

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ya, Ruatha, well said.
These people knew that.
Those people knew that.
Those people know that.

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I wish I had words to say that would help, but I doubt any eloquence or verbosity can take away the suffering.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That most likely wasn't the sound of the explosion but the sound of the debris breaking the sound barrier.

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What a thing to happen on my birthday!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

This is strange. Each time Atrocities has been in the hospital, something bad has happened.

Sept 01, Twin Towers.
Oct 02, Washington Sniper
Feb 03, Columbia Shuttle.

I am sensing a pattern here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Twin Towers fell on Sept, 11 (9,11) not Sept, 1.. The shuttle Columbia tradegy happened yesterday Feb, 1 (unless you meant the shuttle Challenger? which I believe happened on feb 14 {but my memory could be wrong on this!}) So much for your theory!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mt. Saint-Helen erupted on my birthday! but that was a 'natural' desaster so it's hard to compare!

[ February 02, 2003, 11:13: Message edited by: David Gervais ]

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really don't think that this time arround it will suffer much of a delay, this time there is the space station, and I know that the astronaughts up there will not be abandonned. They will need supplies and can't stay up there for two years waiting for replacements!

If it were me, I'd try to get another shuttle up as soon as posible. This kind of 'action' would both reassure the people and honor the memories and dreams of the fallen heroes!

..after all, "Delay and demoralize" is a tactic most used on an 'enemy' why would anyone use a tactic like that on friends and family?

Have a good day, CHeers!

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

Challenger, IIRC, disintegrated on liftoff on January 19th. The Columbia astronauts (along with all other NASA personel) observed a moment of silence on the exact moment that Challenger exploded. This moment of silence took place whilst Columbia was in orbit.

edit: A quick google search finds that the challenger was lost on January 28th. So much for my memory... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

2nd edit: Mount St. Helens? Where's that, in Canada? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

3rd edit: Heres another theory for you. Apollo 1 fire tragically kills 3 astronauts on the pad: Jan 27. Challenger explosion: Jan 28th. And now Columbia on Feb. 1.

Conclusion: Don't be a NASA astronaut at the end of January/beginning of February.

[ February 02, 2003, 11:38: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Re: OT: Shuttle Breaks Up During Re-Entry
 

01 = 2001
02 = 2002
03 = 2003

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ISS program will probably continue. Yesterday Russia sent a supply ship as it was planned. The major problem is how to procced with ISS construction. It would need 25 shuttle launches just to finish it. What will happen now - nobody knows.

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I hope they keep the ISS going. I know the shuttle can keep it going, I suppose the old Russian rockets can also send up parts. I read the Saturn V Rockets could have deployed the whole ISS in one shot. It would have required some redesign since it doesn't need to go to the moon, but it has the "Umpfh!" factor to do it.

Personally I blame the rampant tax cutting and I hope China's space program triggers the next space race.

Humanity needs to be out there, in the stars.

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Anyone been to ebay lately? It is really nauseating how many Columbia items have been posted in the Last two days.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The way I heard it the Soyuz is a ballistic escape pod. Get in, fire it off, and hope you hit where you aimed. The shuttle was always considerd preferable.

Several yrs ago a soyuz landed flawlessly, with a crew of dead cosmonauts -- oxygen leak. Personally, I'd rather go in a hydrazine explosion than suffocated on re-entry. Assuming a sane person can presume to make an informed opinion on a decision like that.

At least a couple of sci-fi scenarios involve global mega corporations taking over the ISS when it's determined too expensive for governments to afford. That's silly, but maybe NASA needs to think small for a little while. Russia sure could use some time to pad it's CD's.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wasn't that like 30 years ago? And the only failure of Soyuz on reentry? I don't know near enough about the space program to know which is safer. Only that a shuttle launch is not required.

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The Last time some one died in the Russian space program was 1971 if my memory is correct.
So I'd trust them anyday to send me up, I'd jump at the chance directly.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd jump at any chance to go up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Including the French new booster that blew up a few months ago. Providing, of course, they had a capsul capable of supporting a human. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And in spite of the catastrophe yesterday, one of the shuttles. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Yes, the Last time Russian space programm suffered casualty was in 1971 - parashute did not open in time and crew died on impact. I trust Souz spaceship more than any other, especially because my farther works as a fuel engineer other there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The main problem with Souz as a major transport is not safety but its limited capacity - 3 people and no more than 2.5 tons of cargo. Shuttle can carry 7 people and up to 50 tons,IIRC.

Saturn V was not that powerfull, it could carry about 100 tons on low Earth orbit. The Russian rocket Energia, wich was designed for spaceshuttle Buran could carry 150 tons. Too bad the programm was canceled because of money. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Still, it would require several launches to assemble ISS.

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2nd edit: Mount St. Helens? Where's that, in Canada?

Mt. Saint Helen's is in the US!

..2001, 2002, 2003! I guess I missinterpreted that one!

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All newspapers in Spain show the disaster in its 1st page. How sad. Not only for the U.S., but for all the world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">However the shuttle is not necessary to bring them home. They have a Soyuz (sp?) to do that. I also heard a theory they may launch one shuttle just to bring them home if they feel it is safer that the Soyuz

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Who can't help but feel a loss here? The Columbia was they icon of the space shuttle fleet and NASA.

The seven astronoughts who were lost died doing what they loved, and I can think of no better way to go to the great beyond then doing it doing something that you love.

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I heard in the news about the shuttle. Tragic.
I hope this doesn't hold up the space program too much - it is already under-funded IMO.

At least NASA was more forthcoming with info this time. I guess they learned not to withhold
information too long with the Challenger.

By the way, did anyone catch the mis-information
that someone at NASA tried... it was stated that the pieces could be toxic and not to pick up and handle them. Some fable about fuel contamination. Imagine, 3000 or so degree heat on re-entry and some fool says that this fuel may still be there!

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not some fool, a rocket scientist. It's not mis-information, it's a fact.

To burn the fuel you have to mix it with oxygen. It is not extrodinary at all that measurable amounts of fuel would remain unburned when you consider the speed at which the ship fell apart, and the altitude. Very thin atmosphere at that point.

Pieces were getting blown off and flying off due to Ge forces. Once they got away from the oxygen in the fireball they would burn out from lack of oxygen. Explosions can put out fires as well as ignite them. That's why they use dynamite to stop oil well fires.

EDIT: But beyond that, they weren't saying the hydrazine fuel was the only dangerous substance in the debris. Many chemicals that are toxic are not flamable.

Geoschmo

[ February 03, 2003, 19:05: Message edited by: geoschmo ]