[OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Hhhmm. I live in Belgium and i'm ashamed by the way our government or better some politicians handle the whole Iraqi situation.
I mean, why o why do they have to be so annoying when it comes to the defence of Turkey. They think that issueing defences to Turkey is admitting the negotiations have already failed. Duh.
Like Saddam is going to comply. Woehahahaha. Right. He'll comply when he's dead.
Only mistake the Americans made was not finishing him of when they had the chance in the Gulf War.
Not that they won't this time.

I just don't get my own country. He's a pain in the rear, is laughing at the whole international community and sponsors terrorists yet our policitians find it necessary to behave like jack*sses. Come'on!
Do i beleive in reason? Yes. But you have to draw the line somewhere and IMHO, Saddam has crossed that line.

Also, a reason why i am not opposed to a war:
The quicker Saddams out, the quicker we can install a new government, the quicker sanctions can be lifted to aid a lot of children who are now suffering because of it.

It's a shame my country probably isn't going to send soldiers. Why do we have highly trained paratroopers if we don't use them? Why am i paying taxes for stuff that isn't used? Saddam is a threat to any civilised nation.

Yes, living in Belgium can be annoying, frustrating and confusing at times.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

minipol:
I only wish my own goverment had the wisdom and integrity to do the same as yours.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

i dont know what Belgium was thinking, but I have a pretty good idea about France and Germany.

when the trade towers were destroyed, it was the first time in recorded history that article 5 of the NATO charter was invoked. just about every allied nation had troops, ships, tanks, and planes ready to send to war. The US slapped them in the face, took the UK, Spain, and Canada, and told France and Germany to piss off. Thanks, but no thanks.

now they are getting us back. oh, the US is too good for our military alliance? guess what? we dont need to play with you either. thats what they're telling us. and they have every right to. the Alliance is falling appart. It was obvious from the first time the media started talking about "coallition forces." what the hell is that? our own private military alliance, outside of NATO? great...

now, not only do we have a "coallition," but there is talk of a european "federation." what the heck? no more Allies? couldn't find a good enough Axis power? have to make up new names for the new sides? wherever this **** is going, the people in charge have already made up their minds about it, and we are just along for the ride. you can see it in the news, as they feed us a little bit more bull**** every so often, just to get us ready for whatever they are going to do.

There IS going to be a war. NATO is NOT going to play along. we are starting our own team, and the other side is still sorting out what it is going to be about. The Arabs are going to be in the middle of it, but its not really going to be about them. both sides are picking members like schook kids getting ready for a ballgame. The world is changing, again.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

It was already said by someone wiser than me ... we had disagreements all the time, the threat the Soviet Union provided some "glue" to force an accord in these times. We don't have that anymore -- we're going to have to get used to disagrements like this.

European nations seem obsessed with "spanking" Turkey. Maybe Turkey's civil rights record poses a problem for letting them into the EU, or maybe it's a raceist policy with selective attention to their civil rights record. But NATO does have a job to do. Oh well, it may all sort itself out.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

NATO is a defensive alliance - the members agree to defend each other from external agressors - they dont agree to automatically support each other in foreign invasions.

Iraq is not threatening to invade Turkey, and if Iraq and Turkey do go to war with each other it will be Iraq acting in self-defence, not to mention the fact that it will more likely be the Kurds fighting the Turks as the Turks move to invade northern Iraq to control the oil there and to squash any ideas of an independant Kurdistan.

I dont think that those kinds of actions were what NATO was formed to support. The turks have a human rights record almost as nasty as the Iraqis, especially where Kurds are concerned.

I do agree, however, that if Saddam still has weapons of mass destruction, that he would be less that cooperative in disarming.

On the other hand, can you imagine any circumstance in which the US (possesor of more than 6000 nuke warheads) would comply with a UN order to disarm?

The US, for instance, is a signatory to the now 30 year old Non-Proliferation Treaty. This treaty, in essence, is an agreement between the nuclear armed states and the non-nuclear armed states that the non-nuclear armed states will remain that way and the nuclear armed states will join them. Theres no sign that the US, or any of the other nuclear states, ever intends to go non-nuclear.

What this means is that any state with ambitions to act on the world stage, in a way contrary to US policy, MUST have nuclear weapons to deter the kind attack that Iraq is looking like it will recieve.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

I continue to be amazed at how many people don't understand that Iraq has violated the conditions of the cease fire from the previous "conflict." By violating these conditions, they have negated the cease fire. No additional action is necessary to continue the conflict. The "coalition force," or the United States does not need any additional approvals to finish the job.

The inspectors are not in Iraq to find Saddam's weapons, although you wouldn't know it from listening to Hanz Blix. The Iraqis are supposed to be showing the inspectors proof that they have destroyed or eliminated all of the biological, etc. weapons that they had at the end of the Gulf War. To date, Iraq has not cooperated and has not provided proof as required.

Saddam is playing a cat and mouse game and using disagreements between other nations to buy time. As GB said, the game is over.

The United Nations is as ineffective as the League of Nations was. For it to dissolve into nothing would be a great improvement. If you don't believe this, go to the UN web page and read some of the reports that their committees have prepared. These committees want to take away the sovereignty of all of the world's nations.

As for Europe, it's about time for them to defend themselves. Bring our troops home after this war and let Europe do what they wish without our support...Greybeard

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wonder how Europe would ever be able to defend itself. Europe has a history of struggles and wars and even to this day, as clearly shown the Last couple of days, they quarrel amongst themselves.
I really really wonder how this could be an effective force.
It's not IMO. More action, less talk. Debating is fine but when somebody slaps you in the face, you slap back and preferably a bit harder so they get the message (that's my way of doing things)
Reminds me of when i turned 12 and went to high school. For some reason, the kids of one class started pestering me. Talking to them or teachers
intervening didn't help. Then i punched one of them so hard in the face, a tooth flew out of his mouth. Case closed. Now when i was walking in the hall way, kids made room for me.
Of course that's not really a comparison and not meant to be, just a thought.

Anyway, i still find it hard that so many countries have trouble giving Saddam an ultimatum or whatever to really bring him down. Although i don't think an ultimatum would help.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

The whole problem about the Iraq affair is that the world community knows that the planned US invasion (Bush has intended to invade from day 1, have no doubt about that) is not being done solely because of altruistic reasons. Control of oil supplies and the middle-east and the USA's need to dominate the world (to support its economy) is a significant factor.

The above statement is not intended to pooh-pooh the fact that the strength of the USA over the Last 80 years has made it possible for western democracy to flourish. Its just to make the point that US policy is directed at ensuring the best outcomes for the US people, even if it is to the detriment of others (no different really from what other countries try to do).
The difference of course though is that the US is the only super-power, spends more on its military budget than the rest of the world combined, and maintains battle fleets in five of the worlds major oceans. With the USSR gone, the negative aspects of US foreign policy are more likely to become a source of friction between the US and its allies.
Comments by hardliners such as Rumsfeld (old Europe) and by Bush I think have exacerbated the differences - "if you are not with us, you are against us". Although the statement was referring to the War on Terror, it is clearly the approach that the current US administration takes to all of its dealings with other countries and just reinforces the message that the US "empire" will not tolerate dissenters.
I find it quite concerning actually that anyone the US disagrees with is automatically considered to be wrong, negative, etc.....

Just hope you Americans can keep your politicians under control and maintain your democracy and freedoms in the form that your founding fathers had in mind.
Regards,
GE

(the perspective of an Australian who doesnt like the way his Prime Minister says "how high" when Bush says "jump").....

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

If I have to hear the the phrase 'weapons of mass destruction' one more time...

Here is a letter that I read in a recent Toronto Star newpaper opinion page that I thought hit the hammer on the head about those weapons...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

First of all, a statement.
- I am no friend of Saddam.
- I do belive there are some weapons of mass destruction stashed away.
- I do belive Saddam is doing everything in his power to keep these hidden.
- I do recognize this violates the cease-fire, and US have the mandate to go to war.

Yet I strongly oppose the war.

Why ?
It won't solve any problems, just move them to another location. The third worlds resentment agaist what they perceive as US/Western oppresion and aggression will increase even faster, and new terrorist bases will pop up somewhere else. It's far better to have one weak enemy you know and can control, then to have enemies you don't know.
And Weapens of mass destruction can be made with a chemistry-set in a basement. It's transporting them to the place they will be used that is the problem.

Greybeard:
American troops in Europe was needed (and greatly appreciated) until the fall of the Soviet Union. After that they are just a waste of tax-payers money. I really don't mind, because its not my taxes. But it makes me wonder if the real reason for the war is to justify the huge US defence budget.

Damien and God Emperor:
You are a wise (and well informed) men.

Puke:
There is much wisdom in your post, but I think You give the "people in charge" to much cred if you think they actually understand whats going on.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, the climate of hatred against the US already exists. Removing Saddam doesn't create a new problem somewhere else. Not removing Saddam doesn't prevent hatred against the US.

The world, in general, doesn't get its perspective of Americans from its foreign policy. In fact, according to a very recently released study, most non-Americans got their information about America from Hollywood. Those who knew Americans personally were less likely to hold negative views of the US than those who did not.

Militant Muslims call America the "Great Satan." This isn't because of our foreign policy; it's because of our culture, or at least their perception of it. They see us as a sexually promiscuous, greedy, irreverant, blasphemous people who stand in direct defiance to Islamic law. As such, in their minds, we must be destroyed and made subject to their laws.

How ironic that Hollywood is so strongly for talking about and "understanding" the view of these fanatics, when they would be the first people to go should the fanatics get their way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I certainly hope they have a better reason than the childish reason of "they told us no thanks" for failing to provide defensive measures for Turkey. If 12 yr old HS students are running the country, then perhaps whay they need is a good punch in the mouth. That is one sorry excuse to block NATO.

If I need $500, and 8 people say here is $100. Should the three people I say "no thanks, the need is met" too get offended because I didn't take "THEIR" $100? And in their anger go take it out on a third person who is in need?

I certainly hope that is not the situation. If it is..... They need to (expletive) grow up.

Besides, Iraq has already threatened many times to attack Turkey, and anyone else who aids the USA during wartime events. The threat is real, the lack of Turkish defensive aid is stupid.

And the excuse that it might be seen as a sign that talks have failed is just as lame. Perhaps everyone should wait until Saddam attacks them before making a move, because it might not be "politically correct". Iraq is a neighboring country to Turkey. It's easy to point a nay finger when your several nations away from the threat.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Hmm, hmm... such a menu of issues to comment on!

First of all, I think that the current European opposition to US policy on Iraq has more to do with the method than the content. If GWB had gone to the UN first, and with an attitude of really expecting to have to negotiate, there would be far fewer pissed off people in the world today. Instead the 'US Administration' simply announced that it was time for regime change in Iraq. As if this is a matter that can be determined in a cabinet meeting of the US government. Only after a lot of protest, domestic and international, was the case even taken to the UN Security Council, where it should have been started.

There are of course a certain number of countries that simply hate the US and resist anything the US wants, and they would oppose us anyway. They are no doubt in a state of glee over the way we have alienated most of our traditional allies in this debacle. Their work is much easier now.

That said, there is more than a little fault to be found with US foreign policy of late. Yes, Iraq has defied the UN mandates coming from the Gulf War for years, but that does not change the fact that it is the UN which must respond, not the US. The UN should have been primed and ready to get tough on Iraq, too. All it needed was some leadership which the US could have provided. But the many unilateral actions of the Bush administration prior to the emergence of this issue has soured the atmosphere and encouraged the other major players at the UN to think of ways to cut the US down a notch rather than how to advance international 'law and order'.

The behavior of the US Govt. on the domestic front seems to be just about the same as it is internationally. Gather all authority to itself. There is a push on to paper-over the entire constitution and create a police state with 'emergency powers' that have no defined limits and no defined times or conditions for their end. If you liked the 'USA Patriot Act' just wait for Patriot Act II which is rumored to be in the works.

[ February 12, 2003, 04:59: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

My comment about taking all US troops out of Europe was intended to be said somewhat tongue-in-cheek. However, it doesn't quite read that way. Sorry.

I am tired of our leaders thinking that the US ought to be the world's policeman. Our economy is in the tank due to overspending, the world's economy is responding to fundamentals that exist even though the experts say we're in a new era, and all of us will probably be able to tell our grandchildren about living through the depression...Greybeard

BTW, the government of the US is a democratic republic, and NOT a democracy. Don't feel bad though, even our Representatives and Senators don't seem to know the difference.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

well, i probably shouldnt start talking about my ideas on politics. regarding the situation in Mesopotamia though, yes Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. we gave them to them to use against the Iranians to defend against their "human wave" attacks, a trick that they probably learned from the Russians. or maybe its just a timeless oldie.

Regarding justification for war, no we dont need any more. But no one gives a **** about Iraq, its weapons, or its human rights abuses. Just like no one cares about the human rights abuses in the Congo, or anywhere else. People care about money, oil, and power. now dont get me wrong, i like those things. our economy runs on money, and we get alot of that from oil. sure, a utopian paradise could do very well with alternate fuel systems, but we dont live in one of those. so its time to get used to it. the people in power like oil, and use it to get more money and power. sometime, it might dry up. but right now, its worth spending alot of money and lives to control. thats just the way it goes.

no one fought in south east asia for good an right, we did it for rubber, and money, and power. Im tired of all the global policeman make-believe. the people of all the other countries in the world think we are a bunch of dicks. their governments support us because they have to, not because their people want them to. if we are going to start this globalization / imperialist / hegemony stuff, lets stop kidding arround and just do it. no one is falling for the propaganda anyway.

lets slap some "Standard Oil" logos on the tails of our fighter jets, and get this over with.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Well I was going to construct a thought provoking argument, with just a touch of cynical humour, but Puke said it way better than I ever could. So a big thumb's up to him.

Askan

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Puke, you are right about the global policeman thing. If US had been a global policeman in Afganistan something would have been done to the local opium business.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

I belive that Puke hit the nails head. A bit honesty would improve others view on the US strategy and might even get people to approve.

[ February 12, 2003, 09:10: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

aye, Puke. Well said.

In response to US troops in Europe (or worldwide for that matter). Do you really think that these troops are there to defend helpless allies and the US is doing everyone a favor on the tax payer's expense?
No, these troops serve to protect US interest worldwide and conduct military campaigns around the globe. How do you think the US can deploy troops to the middle east and maitain their supply lines without bases in Europe?
Don't get me wrong, I do realize that there are many benefits for the other countries as well (yes, and also protection). The point is that the US would shoot themselves in the foot to abandon their bases.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

this from an Iraqi blog
http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
-- Samuel P. Huntington

:: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 ::
:: salam pax 2:55 AM [+] ::
The whole region is a cesspool. dictatorships are all around the arab
region. Turkey and Iran fair just as bad as the rest of the lot. But the
benevolent western eye looks at Iraq only.
Thank you for your keen interest in the human rights situation in my
country,
thank you turning a blind eye for thirty years,
thank you for providing the support for my government to send 2 million
Iraqis to war with Iran and getting them killed,
thank you for not minding the development of chemical weapons by a nut case
when you knew he was a nut case,
thank you for not minding that members of the Iraqi communist party get acid
baths (you don't think that this was used for the first time in Kuwait do
you?, the government used these baths since the late 70's),
thank you for ignoring all human rights organizations when it came to the
plight of the Iraqi people,
thank you for keeping sanctions which you knew only weakened the people and
had no effect on the government.
Thank you for knowing all this and not minding.
For all your efforts I salute you with a hearty **** YOU.

There isn't a single bit of information which is not old and has been
rehashed by many human rights organizations before, so what makes you so
worried about how I manage to live in this **** hole now?
Don't read it if you are faint hearted, that is except if your name was
Raed, he has to because I say so.
Not a single line would raise an Iraqi eyebrow with amazement. This is how
it is and how it has been. Everyone heard a thousand horror stories, others
have witnessed them and still live here. Bite your tongue and move on. Don't
ask.

I forgot to thank all the western construction companies who have built the
mentioned prisons, and the eastern European countries who provided the
training.

So now you care? I don't know whether I am angry, sad or scared. You had the
reports all the time and you knew. What makes today different than a year
ago?

"No one doubts the barbarism of Saddam Hussein. It dates back to the period
when, under a Conservative government, the UK was willing to sell him
arms-related equipment and to give him substantial financial credit so that
he could afford to make purchases."
so while you're at it why don't you pull out the dossier about Syria? Or
maybe Turkey? I am sure you are already layouting the Saudi dossier and
making it look as nice as the Iraqi dossier, very good layouting don't you
think so?

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

If the US would have signed Kyoto,...

If the US would have agreed the Global Justice court,...

If the US would agree to dismantle their own chemical, boilogical and nuclear weapons,...

If the US would care about human rights (even in their own country),...

If the US would be equal against (example) Saudi Aribia as vs Iraq(in their war against Terror),......

If the US really means to save the iraqi people from their cruel leader,...

If the US would treat palestinian people as PEOPLE

and a lot more...

If the US...I could 'support' the US, and with me a lot (people/countries) around the world...

But this war, is like supporting one dictator vs the other (And i see as the US as a dictator), in the end u are sorry.

R.

p.s. IF the US had a better president (rather then a couple of big Corporations, as leader).... a lot of this would not have happend...

(edit)p.s. i didn't see the post below, but i agree.

[ February 12, 2003, 10:20: Message edited by: Some1 ]

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, but the US is not run by corporations. The leaders of those corporations, like rich people in every nation on the face of the planet, do have some room to make suggestions to Bush and the Congress and all. But, they do not control the government.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

rant
OIC, so if the USA intervenes in the issues, they they are wrong for violating the soverntry of another nation and accused of trying to "conquer the world" so they can have oily rubbers. And if they leave it up to which ever government that is in power to correct the wrongs in THEIR country, the USA is wrong and accused of turning a blind eye..... Kiss my arse. If the USA is going to be wrong no matter what they do, then IMNSHO they should do it right. And interpret that anyway you want.
/rant

On the lighter side, I really hope Saddam's latest cooperations is genuine and not another delay tactic. if genuine, then fantastic, a war can be averted. If it's more BS, then he has comming whatever happens. I think the there has been more than enough latitude given for him to cooperate.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not in alle cases. In the meanwhile he's still funding terrorists. Plus the embargo against Iraq is still in place. Do you really think they would lift the embargo while Saddam is in place?
I think ( you can never be sure, not in this political climate) that after a war, the embargo would be lifted, opening the door for aid to the people of Iraq. If the aid would reach those that really need it is another question.

How would you solve these issues while leaving Saddam in place. I don't think you can.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well now I'm being pedantic, but when I was in Brussels I did have a dessert (after my mussels and Lefe Brune of course). Never saw a desert, but there were plenty of desserts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for the topic.... I love Belgium! I wish my country's leader had the testicular fortitude to do what Belgium did, instead of getting scruffed up knees and getting patted on the head alot.
With the American Hegemony at full pace now its only natural for other countries to decide on a policy of political non-cooperation. Nobody can out gun the USA, nobody can touch them economically so the best we can do is not cooperate. It may be futile but its still better than being completely trodden on.

Askan

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're not saying that America has become the mega-evil empire are you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And if so, you cant be proposing a campaign of civil disobedience can you?

Personally, I think the best way to deal with America is to ignore it completely. Filter it out of your life completely - stop watching american TV, stop going to american movies, stop listening to american music, and stop eating american food.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You forgot : If the US would stop building and selling antipersonal mines...

But the rest is absolutely true. Why should we support a petrodollar dictature against a islamic military dictature ? And Irakians haven't elected Saddam (perhaps americans haven't elected GB in Florida too , I don't know), so they aren't responsible for that situation.

For me, the live of an irakian is as precious as the life of an american.

If Georges Bush has decided to get rid of SH, why not simply droper parachutists on its palace, or a big heavy laser guided bomb, instead of bombing a whole country ? These guys are paid to risk their live, after all. An other option would be to bribe irakian tribe leaders to rebel against Saddam. I think it would be a cheaper solution than moving the whole US army in the golf. So why does he want to attack ? to control the oil fields and please the corporation that put him in place ? to justify its military budget ? to be elected in 2004 ? I haven't said it, it's up to you to make your opinion.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You'll have to come back. We have more than 1000 beers. I personnaly have only tasted about 40 different ones so i have much work to do :-)
Although i haven't tasted "Lefe Brune" yet but i know a beer called "Leffe Bruin" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

As for the Belgian politics. Some of our politicians might look strong to the outside world but it's ashame they can't be that resourceful when it comes to internal politics.

Belgium is one of the only countries with 3 governments. 1 flemish, 1 walloon and 1 federal. Or something like that. Too complicated for a normal thinking human being to understand.

Beer, waffels, mussels and chocolate is all we have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd be happy with just the beer and chocolate.

*Dogscoff books a one-way ticket on the Eurostar...

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please. By all means. If anyone out there truly feels the US is evil, then it's only being consistent to avoid all connection with them. If we are controlled by evil corporate entities, then don't support them with your dollars (or dinars or rubles or francs or lira...).

Let's see if those in other countries are willing to give up the luxuries obtained from this country and put their money where their mouth is.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You forgot : If the US would stop building and selling antipersonal mines...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...it wouldn't put a dent in the number of mines used/deployed worldwide.

(...similar reasons for Kyoto, actually. Funny that.)

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

politics! never understood it and really dont want to.
(next statement is a joke)
you realize its all the other countries fault the us is the way it is. if you hadnt sent all the undesirables from your countries to the new land we wouldnt be this way.

the war.
it has been long enough since the Last war/police action the the us military has new weapons it needs to try out and a whole lot of old ones to get rid of. if we, the us, were actually concerned about just getting rid of SH and actually helping the other countries we do have the technological ability to strike specific targets and not invade. it was proven when the us dropped the bunker buster Last time and SH realized we can strike him even in his best defended bunker. the us is looking out for its interests and using the attack on 9/11 as an excuse.
unfortunately there seems to be a recurring pattern in history regarding the so called superpowers. empire becomes to big and is disliked by others, empire is toppled and replaced by one of the others. it soon becomes a superpower and gets mega-evil empire status and it toppled....etc..
Last empire was the uk (i am still trying to figure out how a country the size of the uk was able to be as powerful as it was) now it is the us and who knows who it will be next (guess it depends on who buys up most of the us)...assuming we dont destroy the world first
these are my ramblings and they are ended.

[ February 12, 2003, 19:24: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really enjoy Chimmay, and a few other Belgian ales. I would love to visit, and try some of the stuff thats too good to export http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We make some things here that we call "Belgian Waffles," but im sure they are not as good as the rea thing.

Im getting hungry just thinking about it. If I visited, where is a good place to go?

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You forgot : If the US would stop building and selling antipersonal mines...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...it wouldn't put a dent in the number of mines used/deployed worldwide.

(...similar reasons for Kyoto, actually. Funny that.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it would put a dent in the number of mines used worldwide.

<a href="http://www.iansa.org/news/2000/aug_00/treaty_landmines.htm" target="_blank">Now, three years after the initial signing of the Mine Ban Treaty in Ottawa, 137 nations have signed and 100 have ratified this agreement. States party to the treaty are destroying their stockpiles of antipersonnel land mines; exports of these indiscriminate weapons have, in a matter of years, gone from a flood to a trickle; and demining efforts in dozens of countries are giving people back their land.

Despite this revolutionary success, unfortunately, several states, including Russia and China, have yet to accede to the Mine Ban Treaty. Not surprisingly, Iraq, Libya, and North Korea, notorious culprits when it comes to complying with weapons regulations, have not yet joined either. Many Americans, however, would be shocked to know that the United States is part of this list of usual suspects that produce, deploy, and develop antipersonnel land mines, weapons that maim or kill more than 22,000 civilians a year.</a>

ICBL!

Kyoto Protocol Most US citizens would like the US to sign the Kyoto treaty
Percentage of Pollution by the US
No proof humans are heating up the big place!

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Ruatha, mines in and of themselves aren't a problem. It is not cleaning them up once you're done that causes problems.

Kyoto was quite flawed, in that it exempted several nations from any limits at all. Why should the US sign a treaty that would hurt its economy if everyone else isn't going to play by the same rules?

Phoenix-D

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Try living here. I'm always hungry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I even joined an American Football club here in Belgium tribes because my body is starting to show what happens when you indulge in all the goodness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For Beer, basically anywhere. Brussels and Bruges have some nice cafes known for serving a lot of those special rare beers. I'm sure there are other places but i haven't visited them yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Since i was born in Bruges, i know a few local pu bs there. This is a must visit if you come to Belgium. Never EVER leave belgium without going here. And please leave the pub drunk as you'll never forgive yourself for not tasting more beers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Brugs Beertje
Problem with some of them is that they are brewn by a small group of people, only during a certain season or even for a certain festivity and so the number of available beers is low. Some of the recipies date back to the middleages.

For food. Basically anywhere. Yummy.
Now i am starting to get hungry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

By the way, Chimmay is indeed a very nice beer. Goes well with cheese.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bull's eye.

This is the reason USA is slowly turning itself into the new MEE.

The very idea that just because you don't like something you can just ignore it.
The rest of the world don't have that freedom We are forced to interact with our neighbors, USA just steamrolls them.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, i think this is true. I know people who also like to bash the Americans. I can't stand this because their arguments come from shows like Jerry Springer and are full of stereotypes. Sure, JS is what America thinks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Come on, give me a break. I went to the States twice: once to Boston for my job and once to Las Vegas to get married there. The Last trip was kind of scary because it was only 10 days after the september 11th attack that we flew in from Belgium. My wife and me where uneasy to say the least.
Well, i didn't feel that much different than home.
Only Vegas was much different: it's a desert and we don't have a desert here in Belgium http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For my previous job, i was working daily with Americans and i came to appreciate them. Although i must admit that i already liked the States before i met any people from there.

(Edit: changed dessert to desert. ouch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[ February 12, 2003, 16:02: Message edited by: minipol ]

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Let’s sum this up real quick. The US needs Arab oil, at least until the oil in the South China Sea comes on line. We do not choose to continue to fund terrorism through the purchase of Arab oil. So we will have a war in the Gulf. Also, this *** tried to have Bush Sr. assonated after GW1. If it was your dad, wouldn’t you be a little hard nosed about all of this?

Several European countries have a very profitable trade situation with a certain Arab country. Would you want to have your cash cow attacked? Also, the same European countries produce some of the finest medical equipment in the world. Equipment that will become stories in the New York Times after the war gets under way. Would you want to have to explain how this stuff got to the Middle East, and what it was being used for? It’s a loose loose situation for some people.

We could just do this in a court, drag his raggedy *** in and prosecute him for crimes against humanity. Last time I looked, the Kurds were people too!

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year?? (and I sure that number includes a ton of children) Sure the problem may be not cleaning them up but frankly I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them.

Re: Nation bashing. Well American bashing is a popular activitiy for many up here in Canada. Then at the same time they'll go off to see a Hollywood movie, buy fresh US vegetables in the middle of winter and convieniently forget Canada's huge trade surplus with the US.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

"The very idea that just because you don't like something you can just ignore it.
The rest of the world don't have that freedom We are forced to interact with our neighbors, USA just steamrolls them."

The Kyoto treaty isn't interaction. It's simply an unfair treaty. If the goal is to control carbo dioxide emissions, then -everyone- who signs the treaty should have to limit them. That isn't how the treaty was.

Phoenix-D

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How can anyone support production of a device that kills 50,000 civilians every year (and maims many more) in the United States alone?

Or is it only bad if it's a weapon that maims people, while objects that you might find useful are okay, even if people die or are maimed by them?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which only gives a more trauma-inducing bloody shirt for people to wave so people will blindly flock to their cause. Me? I find crying out to blunt our swords in the name of humanity to be foolish at best.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

I don't know whether to laugh or weep.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, yes I see. The atombomb over Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn't kill people, it was the one dropping the bomb who killed people.

(In US many says " it's not guns whoo kill people, people kill people", yeah, five year olds who find's their dad's gun!)

You US people never stop to amuse me.
Don't get me wrong, I really like you. Close by you are really nice people, I lived 5 weeks in a tent in florida a couple of years ago, real fun.
But alot of the US citizens are really naive, and I should now what I'm talking about as I'm quite naive myself, for a swede atleast.

(Not strange I guess, there are quite alot of US citizens to choose from).

[ February 13, 2003, 16:51: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your metaphor is inadequate, because a landmine is not a like sword in any way. A sword kills the person you point it at. A landmine kills anyone who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, sometimes years and years after the conflict is over. Most countries manage to defend themselves perfectly well without them, so I don't think there's any sensible argument for their continued production.

I don't think any government would be wise to throw away every weapon it has and dismantle its armies, but I do think certain weapons should not be produced, owned or used anywhere by anyone, ever. Landmines are one. Nukes are another.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I see bush as one of those leaders... wasn't he himself in oil? Who made it possible to finance his election? etc..etc..
And all his actions seems that i am right, like:
Drilling in Alaska, War in middle east, Kyoto etc..
I don't see the difference honest... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

And about Kyoto, yep America had to do the most against the CO2, BECAUSE they made the most pollution... about one third of the entire world!!! Come on! The reason the US is so rich is because of it...

And to go back to the initial post?. I think Belgium is brave to deny US help... and doesn't scare away (like my country)... and be afraid to loose deals.

R.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Someone was very drunk or naive when writing this.

R.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And some1 was very flippant or cryptic when writing this. Why? Please explain your viewpoint.

[ February 13, 2003, 17:12: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

all weapons kill and mame people. some of them do it indescriminantly. when creating a weapon, the thing to consider is if it will do its job effectively. Anti-personnel mines DO. when selling a weapon, the thing to consider is if the political/strategic benefit of putting it in the hands of the buyer, combined with the cold hard cash, outweigh the long term dangers of putting it in the hands of the buyer.

how those questions are evaluated seems to be a point of some contention, but the problem is not that they kill children. the people making those mines and selling those mines dont care about that, because any child who has occasion to walk through a minefield is not contributing to the global economy, and thus dont count very much in the grand scheme of profiteering. if the kid worked in a nike factory, he would probalby have a plowed road to get to his place of employment, that could be reasonably be kept clear of mines. so odds are, hes just a farmer. and if the forigners are growing their own food, it means they are not buying ours.

so, from the viewpoint of our capitalist military industrial complex, AP mines do no harm at all. crying about injustice in the world isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

Damn Puke. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I guess that's one way to look at things. A little cold though.

Re: [OT] Cr*ppy Belgium
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You do realize that that almost never happens, right? Maybe just a few times a year in the world, which is not enough to cry about. I wouldn't doubt it if there are more deaths from lighting strikes killed than there are accidental deaths by five year olds (and other young ages) with gun access.