Yet another planet capture problem
 

I have captured numerous planets in numerous games under all SE4G Versions since Gold was released. Why is it that if the enemy planet has mines or satellites in cargo during combat, they are gone when the planet is taken over?

I understand that for the other units:
- fighters are auto-launched and normally PD'ed to death,
- WP's are normally killed, and now under 1.84 die first,
- drones are normally launched (haven't tested the no-auto-launch of anti-planet drones yet)

But where do the mines and sats go? I cannot believe that 100% of the time, extra damage kills them off. Proof: I just took over a planet with satellites & mines in cargo, but it had no WP's. My fleet held back and my troop transport ran to the planet and took it over. The troop transport has no weapons other than PD. This is in simultaneous movement, btw. Do my troops kill off all the cargo on the target planet?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
Slick.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Your ships will kill off anything that can hurt them. Mines and sats stored in cargo can't hurt them, so they leave it alone and drop their troops.

Troops also can't hurt them, so under the new rules your ships should kill the WPs and fighers and drop their remaining troops regardless of the other cargo.

Phoenix-D

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

The items in cargo with the least hit points are destroyed first during bombardment. If there were any WPs there, the sats/mines will be destroyed before them.

Although, I think patch 3 (1.84) changed it so that WPs get destroyed before anything else does. The order they get destroyed is still least HPs first. The other cargo gets destroyed in the same way once the WPs are gone.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

That may be true, but what I read was that there was no bombardment, only troop drop. And the mines and sats vanished from cargo. I would want to know why also.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well it seems that this might require some more investigation. Like I said, I just had a battle with no bombardment and the sats & mines were gone. I can't recall ever taking over a planet and getting stuff in cargo. Has anyone captured a planet and got unlaunched cargo of mines or sats after capture?

Slick.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

IIRC I have, yeah. Only thing I can think of is the other player gave the order to launch them and they launched anyway. Assuming they are in orbit..

Phoenix-D

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Well slick. Looks like you were right. I have confirmed that the units in cargo are destroyed during the invasion. Not sure what happened there, but I don't think it was an intentional change. Unless I am misunderstanding the entries in teh history file. Guess we need to report this to Malfador.

Geoschmo

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

I have captured planets with mines and satellites in cargo many times...Greybeard

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Been a while, but I believe I have captured planets with mines on them... even ones with intact WP but they were only armed with PDC!

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't think so. There were mines too and I would have run into them at some point after capturing the planet. Besides, neither sats or mines are auto-launched in combat.

Slick.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will play around some more to get some data and do some testing and report my results here and to MM. BTW how exactly did you test this? I will be trying to rule out as many variables as possible.

[edit: maybe this is an undesired byproduct of the change to kill WP's first during a planet capture???]

Slick.

[ February 12, 2003, 05:10: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think so, my laptop SE Version is not yet patched and I always have seen the same issue. Planet capturing with or without bombardement resets planet cargo. Sats and mines are not launched during combat (maybe intended?) as far as I recall, just drones and fighters.

OTOH, what if planet cargo would be completely filled with units? Where do your troops go in this case?

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

at first glance I also thougt I had captured planets before with the cargo unaffected, but then i got to thinking, that those may have been surrendered planets, and not troop-taken planets. Not 100% sure about Sats in cargo either, sure I have captured planets via troops and kept the WPs, but anything else is in a grey area.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

I have been taking planets in tactical lately (ie, in 1.84) without bombardment, and have noticed that all weapons platforms are destroyed in every case.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cargo storage can have more cargo than the limit. The troops just get added to the cargo area. Try building a Cargo Storage Facility, and then fill the planet with units. Scrap the facility, and all the units remain there and work fine. You can't add more, of course, and you can't just move one off and then back on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This only happens with Planet cargo, and not ship cargo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I see this nice feature also with an abbidon home planet with ex-extended cargo racial ability (proportions), it has now 18/15 facilities and I should better not scrap the cultural centers to free space for computer complex or similar.

I just fear a little chance of probably non-capturable full planets if this would be fixed because of a probably different combat cargo handling, probably like transfer from ship to planet. Most unlikely, but who knows.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Your dropped troops just overflow the cargo space of the planet, using up something like 15000/3000 (as an example). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Problem? Just blat it with your orbiting spacecraft until the # of troops defending is low enough that you're sure of success!

Works for me... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
(Even in Proportions - where taking out Homeworlds is sometimes a /very/ slow and deliberate process!)
Steve.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Before I notify MM of this, are we all in agreement that cargo which is undestroyed by bombardment/combat during planet capture should be captured and turned over to the control of the conquering empire?

I can't think of any good reason to have the cargo destroyed. Obviously the intent of MM was to be able to capture the planet in as much of a useable condition as possible. If the intent of the defending empire was to use a "scorched earth" tactic, it surely would destroy facilities before cargo. Since this has never worked that way, I think this cargo thing is a bug.

Thoughts?

Slick.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wouldn't object to a few random units/ facilities being destroyed at random once in a while, but I don't think a 100% destruction rate of units is good.

Of course it would be best if Malfador made the fix moddable so anyone who wants to play it diferently still can (and modders have another toy to play with.)

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

You CAN still capture cargo (at least mines)when taking a planet with troops, I captured about 50 mines in planetary assaults Last night. Haven't checked with weapon platforms or sats yet.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Atrakus. Using 1.84? I was not able to capture mines in my tests. Are you playing sim turn or turn based?

Geoschmo

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

That would be shame if cargo related combat results were different with turn based and simultaneous modes.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

just had the chance to give it a try. Using 1.84, turn based tactical. The attack took two waves. Only thing in planet cargo were mines (no WP or Sats). Which were 22 Sm mines, with level 1 warheads.
First wave dropped:
26 troops VS 27 militia. After combat, 22 troops left, 10 militia left, and 11 mines left.
ended combat round, brought second ship to the planet.
Second wave dropped:
6 troops =
28 troops VS 10 militia. After combat 28 troops remained, zero milita, 8 mines. Planet captured.
The first wave obviously took 10 combat turns, the second wave was completed on the 4 turn. Not sure if the damage resistance of the mines had any effect, but with the exception of the one extra lost during the first battle, the planet lost one mine per combat turn from storage.
As for the troops: Sm troop, 1 shield3, 1 ABP3 (20/15/10).
Three duplicate tests showed the exact same results.

So in turn based, you can capture mines. But not all of them. I would assume the same would apply to sats or a combo of both, but have not had the oppty to check that (yet, mwahaha).

When I tried to test it using only one wave, the 32 troops VS 27 militia did not capture the planet. remaining were 29 troops, 4 militia, and 12 mines. (one mine lost per combat turn. hmmm)

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Ahem, now that I take a closer look to it. I have got a running game: turn based, proportions, not yet patched, so it is 1.78.

One or two turns ago my people have captured the abbidon home planet. Now I have seen 4 weapon platforms in planet cargo which are definetely not my design (I do not have PPB4 yet *sigh*), so we are also able to capture wp, at least with the configuration above.

EDIT: It was turn based tactical to be accurate.

[ February 12, 2003, 22:12: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

(took a nap)
when I went back to the game, I decided to run the test a few more time, only using strategic combat instead of tactical. it took having to do the extra steps of pulling the battle fleet off the world, and moving it back in after the first wave, but anyway.
First test, first combat, same results, only I lost two more troops than in tactical http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Second combat all the same except no corgo survived.
Second test same as tactical results, except after the second combat 7 mines survived. So, using the thought that strategic combat works the same in either turn-based or simultaneous games, then one should be able to capture mines in a simul game, provided there are enough of them to survive the ground combat part, and any planetary bombardment that may take place prior to troop drop.

Now, I am going to resume PLAYING this one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hope this endeavor helps the main bug chasers determine the correct and solid answer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

The problem is that it doesn't seem to be possible to capture wps, sats and mines in cargo any more. They seem to be destroyed by the ground combat.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Ok, I have been able to take over planets in simultaneous and turn based games under test conditions and have cargo survive. This includes satellites and mines. It just seemed strange for a while there that the cargo was always being destroyed. I am still wondering about the no-bombardment cases that I have seen where the cargo was gone.

Slick.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

In my "test", I was using minimal troops, mainly because the system I am attacking in the game has all low pop worlds. I don't know if the mines that did survive were because of that small amount. Given the same planet and a 100 troop drop, might have destroyed all the cargo. I don't know, maybe would have captured more (as it would have taken less combat turns). I guess cargo is what is exploding on the mini-world during planet combat and not alien heads. lol

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Sounds like probably a change in 1.84 has ground combat randomly damaging non-troop cargo, the report below is correct about some mines being destroyed during a ground combat round.

What would probably be good to test, then, is what if you build weapons platforms with lots of shields or armor, but no weapons. Planetary bombardment will stop short of killing them (I've captured such WP's before in 1.78), but the troops - will they now have most/all of their shots hit these tough WP's instead of the enemy troops?

PvK

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

same game, came across another "only mine cargo" planet. ran two quick single tests.
first one I dropped 93 troop (way more than enough) and all 20 mines in storage were destroyed. Total troops exceeded planet storage capacity. Second run, I used only a few troops, and kept 16 of the 20 mines. Combat was still only one round, cargo was still exceeded, but only with the combo of the two. (tiny world, domed, 10 troops dropped).

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Ok, I can confirm via testing what others have mentioned below. Thanks for all the testing. Looks like it's a wrap and the bottom line is: Cargo is randomly destroyed during ground combat.

It is no longer always advantageous to use overwhelming numbers of troops. The only problem is that it is cumbersome to tweak the number of troops being dropped and, in simultaneous games it's impossible to tweak more than 1 drop per fleet per turn. GRRR!

Slick.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">if there are no WP to deal with, couldn't you pace two seperate planet capture ships to hit one after the other to get that effect? of course, that still would be a hassle. but possible, yes?

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">if there are no WP to deal with, couldn't you pace two seperate planet capture ships to hit one after the other to get that effect? of course, that still would be a hassle. but possible, yes?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It would be a gamble. If you put too few troops in the first one and lost, the militia would "regroup" along with any remaining defending troops and then you might lose the second set the same way. You might have won if you attacked with all troops at once. The way I look at it is that it is much more important to win the ground battle and capture the planet than to risk losing over potentially capturing some cargo. Also, unless you have done intel to determine what cargo is stored on the planet, you have no idea if there is even anything there. I guess it is more realistic this way anyway - collateral damage.

Slick.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

true, and it's not like mines are expensive anyway. lol

Yessir, we lost half the invasion force, but we now have these nifty sm mines with level 1 warheads now. Ain't they cute.... lol

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

Maybe you can only keep pre-existing cargo if there is space left over after all of your troops are placed in cargo after combat is over. If your troops take 1200 kt, and the planet ahs 1000 kt of cargo, it might remove all of the leftover cargo that was there before when placing your troops in the planet's cargo (after combat is resolved).

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

The destruction of all cargo makes sense, as the defenders would sabotage any equipement, to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

The cargo is not always destroyed though.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

And, I have had troops + cargo exceed the cargo limits of the planet.

Re: Yet another planet capture problem
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, then my earlier hypothesis is wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif