[OT] Nation bashing
 

Yesterday I just tumbled into this article from the Opinion Journal of the Wall Street Journal. I was so astonished by it that I have to share it.

Here it is.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Now just a few refutations.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here the article only deals with POLITICAL immigrants : they are allowed to stay in the country to wait for their file to be reviewed. They only gain the definitive right to stay/work live in the country when their case has been accepted. Writing the political immigrants are the general case is just a bad exercise of propaganda.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">duuu ????
In france ???? WERE ARE THEY ????? I NEED THEM NOW !!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Plain lie. How could someone imagine that in a democratic country ? Did that guy saw that France has a free economy since seven centuries ? Could someone believe that ?????

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could someone find comparisons between... france and USA ? Last time I checked, the stats told me a wildly different story.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose this is about the same case on german political immigrants.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep. We have the truth here.
The point is : better a criminal breaking out that civilians killed by cross fire. But it can be turned another way : better a criminal free than an innocent executed. Question of choice.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Europe has been fighting terrorism since 1970's. But it seems all these has never existed before 11/09 for this newspaper.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For Reagan, I don't know. But for Thatcher, I don't think her legacy is so wonderful. French hospitals in north of France are just full of people coming to get a surgical intervention because there was a 2 years queue in UK.

As a whole, I would bet that this guy never visited anything other than Ritz palace or Georges V Hotel in Paris. But when I read such trash, I wonder if I don't also read some equivallent about USA, biased and lying in the same way this article was.

But what frightens me is that I though the Wall Street Journal was a serious publication.
QUESTION 1
What is published in less prestigious newspapers if this sort of things can appear here ?
QUESTION 2
I did read in several french newspapers that there was a widespread french bashing tendancie in the US. Is it true ? Or is it just a lie from "the other side of the hill" ?

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

"When one wants to get rid of his dog,
he claims it has scabies" (French common saying)

American media owns to multi-national companies, that give to people what they want to hear. Since the majority of americans seems to be alright for a military action against Iraq, that's the line newspapers will keep. It's not information, it's propaganda and demagogy.

"Dogs bark, but the caravan rolls on..."

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Geo, "It is just mine opinion" does not justify telling outright lies. besides, I did't notice any "in my opinion" in the body of the article. Everything the author wrote, he wrote as a presentation of well known facts. That's libel.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Oleg, I am not trying to justify it, nor am I attempting to comment one way or the other on whether what the writer said was the truth or not. I was merely pointing out that being on the opinion page puts it in a different Category then if it were on the front page of the newspaper. Much of what is printed on the opinion pages is actually contrary to the thoughts and beliefs of the newspaper editors. It's a forum for opposing viewpoints, as well as a place where the editors can give their opinion and perspective on the "hard news" printed in other places in the paper.

Even if it's all lies, wheter or not is libel is a discussion for the lawyers, which I am not one of. I do know though that the standards used to determine such a thing are different when it comes to editorial commentary or opinion pages.

Geoschmo

[ February 12, 2003, 13:54: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I spent two weeks in Paris, loved the place.
Everytime I attempted my pitiful efforts at the native language I was asked...
Are you American?
No.
Are you English?
No.
Ahhh...where are you from?
Australia.
Thats good, I like Australians.

If the Americans bash the French I'm sure its perfectly reciprocated in France.

Askan

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It's a horribly hypocritical and bigoted article, but let's leave it at that.

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LOL,
Friends have told me stories about working and living in France. Other friends have played tourist there. I have heard of the French attitude to the US.

From now on, I will never tell another Itallian, Polish, or other ethnic or nationality joke.

They will all be French jokes.
Finally, I am Guilt Free!!!

[ February 12, 2003, 19:17: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed. But the current trend seems (s-e-e-m-s) to be even worse than when De Gaulle withdraw from NATO.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed the US president is not the most popular of all. But I am still looking for ANY equivalent articles in any serious french newspaper.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Oh good, a Nation Bashing thread.

Peru is a fag.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We have this problem in America, its called Free speech, or LWL for Left Wing Liberalism) Sometimes people aflicted with this disease are prone to speak before they think, or say something that is heavily bais toward an idea or concept that they alone have. LWL is a serious condition that affects millions of Americans, and is both a trajic and disabling condition for those who must endure those with LWL.

LWL suffors do not speak for all Americans, however they think they do.

Whether or not the person who wrote the Opinion, has LWL or not is unknown. The problem is people who suffor from LWL often suffor from other conditions such as SBTT, PM, CILTSI, and OPFIM syndrom.

(SBTT is Speaking Before They Think)
(PM, Potty Mouth)
(CILTSI, Call It Like They See It)
(OPFIM, Often Putting Foot In Mouth) Syndrom.

All though many LWL suffors like to think they are speaking for others and often wish to "save" others from their rights, they are more often sufforing from a combination of LWL, SBTT, and OPFIM. Just ask our former Vice President Al Gore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

One LWL concept is that the French when faced with a decesion to fight or surrender, often surrender. LWL suffors believe that if the UN desides to move upon Sadam militarilly, he will demand the French surrender, and they will.

It is regrettable that LWL suffors can not be treated, and that the condition is spreading throughout the US. It is for this reason that many LWL suffors are attempting to hide their affliction by trying to appear as RWL addicts. (RIght Wing Liberalist) Now RWL addicts are a much more up scale clientle, and are often more refined and speak less. There philosphy is simple, Speak softly, but carry a big stick.

By attempting to pass themselves off as RWL addicts, the LWL suffors hope to undermine the positive advances the RWL addicts have made. It is a shame, but most LWL suffors are control freaks who undermine those who have control.

So my advise to you is to ignor the OPINION, and keep the faith that although the French bash us Americans, we love you, the French like brothers.

A quote from an beloved American:

"A rude Frenchman? Who would have thought?" - Robin Williams

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I hear Arabic is a hard language to learn. I wish you, the French, the best of luck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 12, 2003, 22:15: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

We have this problem in America, its called Free speech, or LWL for Left Wing Liberalism"

Also has a paralell condition you might be thinking of known as RWC (right wing conservatism).

That article seemed to display much more sympoms of RWC..though it should be noted that oddly enough all the associated conditions are the same.

On a slightly more serious note, does anyone else find is amusing that many Republicans profess to be for less government? This may or may not be a national thing, but a lot of them around here say that then propose laws to increase government in pretty frivlous ways. Ex: a favorite is laws that legislate "Christian" ideas in a "secular" way. The most current example is a bill to force businesses to close on Sundays.

Phoenix-D

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

UE, no offense intended, but were you born yesterday? The French and Americans have had a love/hate relationship going back hundreds of years. And it's certainly not an American condition only. The French take American bashing to an art form. Do you not notice it because you live there?

And to answer your other question, the key point is the article you are quoting is from the opinion section. Surely French newspapers have opinion and editorial sections as well? The fact that it's in the WSJ is no more relevant than the underwear advertisment on page 26. It's the opinion of the writer.

Geoschmo

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Our right-wing-goverment here in the Netherlands fell after only 87 days in office (it was an unbelievable mess) hopefully ending the worst political year we ever had here. We just had new elections on jan22, and will most likely have a center-left-coalition in a couple of weeks.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well the US is a fundamentalist Christian state.

Askan

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those would be hard-line religious conservatives, and do not represnt Republicans in general in any way. Most Republicans are for less government, period. Most Republicans are not very religious at all. Do tree-hugging hippies represent all Democrats? No, I didn't think so. Don't define the majority by a small and extremely vocal minority.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Excuse me? Just because the majority of US citizens are Christian or Christian-influenced does not mean that the US is a fundamentalist Christian state.

[ February 13, 2003, 01:37: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Excuse me? Just because the majority of US citizens are Christian or Christian-influenced does not mean that the US is a fundamentalist Christian state.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oops maybe I should use more smileys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Its just a bit of George W speak.

Askan

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Some of you guys need to step back, clear your heads, and rethink your positions. America allows the people to choose the religion of their choice. Or even to not believe. So in reality, America is a nation of religious freedom. Freedom for all religions, not just Christians.

And, while we may be more or less limited to two parties, at least we have a stable balance of power between them. Neither side is able to gain a clear Lasting majority. And neither side is able to push forward with a non partisan agenda. It should also be noted that much of what has gone wrong for this administration was covered over during the Last one. Enron did not go broke over night, and neither did WorldCom. I think we all remember what would happen every time a certain young ladies name was on the front page of the Washington Post. Sure as $hit, Iraq would be the target of a few SLCM’s.

The rest of the world comes to America looking for opportunity, freedom, and a better life. When the policies of other nations fail, it is America that steps up and pays the price to put it right. When storms or quakes ravage the world, it is America that opens the coffers and provides aid and cash. When the forces of aggression are on the move, it is more often than not, American blood that has bared the way. And let us not forget who came to the aid of Western Europe on two occasions. And who footed the bill for rebuilding Europe after the Last war. We should also remember who held the line for democracy when Europe was bankrupted by war. And what nation has ever been so kind to it's defeated foes? And it was America that did the majority of the work when Berlin was blockaded. But now Germany is united, and France is...well...France. So we will have a new round of European Nationalism. And the old cast will flex their mustles as they have in the past. Then who knows what will happen? Probably just the same thing that has happened in the past. They will tire of listening to each other and we will have round three.

The one sure thing in all of this is that America will do what is needed to cut the head off of this snake with or with out the help of our dear allies. And should it be without, then there will be one less worry for the planners.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

when i was in here earlier... it was over three pages of ummm ***Crap**** http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

now it has dropped down in size...

My question is there a soccer mom as an admin at shrapnel now ????

No I do not think we need to take the piss at nations , backgrounds etc... here as we all come here to avoid that stuff.....

but there is two disterbing trends in the shrapnel forums lately

1. political threads
2. deleting Posts...

whats up

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

oppss that was the other tread... sorry to mix BEL BASH up with the US BASH...

My bad...

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"Those would be hard-line religious conservatives, and do not represnt Republicans in general in any way. Most Republicans are for less government, period. Most Republicans are not very religious at all. Do tree-hugging hippies represent all Democrats? No, I didn't think so. Don't define the majority by a small and extremely vocal minority."

Notice I said many. I think we have a few more of that breed around here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HEY! I suffor from that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your right! All the faith based initiative stuff coming from W. has nothing to do with religion.

Actually libertarians are for less government -Republicans are for less Social Programs - the Patriot Act (as an example) is a Republican initiative and that certainly doesn't mean less govt.

Also Teddy Roosevelt was an environmentalist why do Republicans want to trash the environment?

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

I am not overjoyed about a War, and I live in the US. Alot of people here are against it. No matter what you hear in the press. Of course It is propaganda, stirring the pot, working the population into a fever. Hollywood and the news industry have traditionally supported their host governments in these kinds of crisis. This is not vietnam type crisis. this is the kind of crap that can start world wars. Although I doubt it will lead to that. Unless North Korea blows...

As for Nato, I believe its time is done. I think this is something thats been coming for sometime. Bosnia was really the beginning of the end for the NATO alliance.

As for Iraq, its well known that France, Germany and Russia have large investments in Iraq. I can understand their reluctance to vote to go to war. It will cost them billions.
However, history repeats itself quite often and We all learned a hard lesson in WWII about appeasement. Hilter did not start as a powerhouse. He grew to that state through appeasment. Beyond the propaganda we see today, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a bad man who has very willingly killed thousands over his 25+ year reign. He took over the country and publicly -ON TV took out his opposition, machined gunned them in the Tv Studio. He has lead Iraq into several wars and cost them alot in young lives. Practically a whole generation was lost in the Iran / Iraq war.

Saddam is used to being in control and for the Last 12 years he has been pushed around, he has alot of reasons to hate the west. He's been pinned by the neck to the table for 12 years and faced daily bombings, so I can see where the USA and UK are coming from when they get nervous about Weapons of Mass Destruction in his hands and possibilities of connecting up with terrorism.
Lets face it, the Iraq government claims to not have the weapons, but it does, of course it does. They used thousands of shells in the Iran /Iraq war. Those weapons were effective enough to bring them both to the peace table. Once the genie is out of the bottle in a country - it doesnt go back in. We all know that. It is interesting to note that Iraq quietly but purposely, instructed their troops to use chemical weapons if the US attacks, and they have done nothing to publically deny these news stories. I am sure Saddam watches CNN. Thats where they got alot of intel in the gulf war. Iraq is hedging their bets that they may scare off the invasion - The whole purpose of pursuing these types of weapons - its a deterent. However in this case I think they have miscalculated.

I dont think any of the countries involved in this discussion deserve bashing, maybe some of the fruit cakes that run them - sure... But I dont think any less of ANY French or German national just because he doesnt agree with the President of the USA. Most of us dont agree with him either...

Peace People..

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Nope, not gonna say that after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ February 13, 2003, 07:06: Message edited by: Grandpa Kim ]

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Hmm, I thought being a Christian was just believing that you believed in a higher power a.k.a whatever the name is for God in their religion.

So now there is a religious class called Christian like Baptist, Catholic, etc?

Good GOD, who cares. You either believe or not. We will all find out in the end and if anyone can come back and tell us please do!!!!!

Hopefully this post will bring peace to the world.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But would we believe him/her?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because it pays too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ February 13, 2003, 08:31: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They don't. No one wants to trash the environment (well, nearly noone).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, Libertarians are for no government, Republicans are for less government, not just social porgrams, Democrats are for more government at every turn.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, that is being religious. Being Christian means that you believe in the one God (and a very specific one), and that you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. The vast majority of people in this world are religious and by no means Christian.

[ February 13, 2003, 11:00: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be an anarchist, wouldn't it? I would say that a libertarian wants *some* government, just not much.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Oh America, great land of freedom and holy protector of the free world. Save us!
We've been good boys, we've always followed you advice, we allowed you to buy each and everyone of our companies and banks until nothing remained of our own, and we never complained. Why when that advice lead us into the worst economic crisis of our history you denied us your help. Of course we've made many mistakes of our own, but your impossible demands don't help.

As you can see anti-american feeling are not strange around here.

Now in this Iraq crisis we're sending humanitarian help.
We're still on the verge of needing humanitarian help ourselves.
We have children starving to death on the streets here on the country that produces more food per capita in the world!
But no, cleaning up the mess made by the great god-state is the priority.

If the US needs to find mass destruction weapons as an excuse (they can do whatever they want without excuse anyway), they will find them whether they exist or not.

Saying the word freedom in every sentence of any speech does not mean you're supporting freedom.

Killing millions only to keep control of the oil marked you already dominate is a very noble cause.

Someone said cutting the head of the snake. Most snakes will leave you alone if you don't step on them first, you know.

Is the mega-empire going to show they're mega-evil or mega-benevolent?

(sorry is this sounds too incoherent, I'm not feeling very coherent today)

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

The Libertarians I've met are against anything not specifically included in the Constitution for the federal government, and much of that is extended to the state governments, too. They feel the government shouldn't be involved in any attempt to protect its citizens from themselves/each other (i.e., drivers licenses, building codes, etc.).

I greatly prefer personal responsibility to government responsibility, but some issues (such as required testing to get a driver's license) are the exception to the rule. Of course, with pop culture de-emphasizing personal responsibility (IOW, pushing victimhood), government is filling in the gaps.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be an anarchist, wouldn't it? I would say that a libertarian wants *some* government, just not much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Some people think that if you don't want their pet law or government agency controlling something then you must want no government. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First, no one made you guys sell out, if it really happened that way. And second, if you have a surplus of food, and people are still going hungry, then you need to look a little closer to home. And exactly who would we be speaking of as a nation? Perhaps you should mention that in your post.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Peoples' locations are listed at the foot of each post. Take another look and you'll see Andres is from Rosario, Argentina.

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The problem with anarchy is, that by deffinition, there would be no way to enforce it.

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The entire world economy is oil based... The US doesnt need Iraqi oil, in fact after the embargo of the 70s for those that remember it, the US no longer gets the majority of its oil from the Middle east. However Japan, Europe and other economies do...

Whatever you do - dont go around believing your governments are noble, what a load, All the governments are as dirty as the each other...

the Anarchist movement - something thats been around since the 19th century, is about total individual freedom and the elimination of the restraints of a civilized society and hate the globalization of
the world economy - WTO. Some also profess to hate modern technology.

[ February 13, 2003, 15:24: Message edited by: AJC ]

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Anarchy is not a functional (functionable?) political structure. Government exists to arbitrate disputes arising from the infringement of one person's freedom on another's. Without a government, anarchy quickly devolves into a "might makes right" system. It also relies on all individuals being unselfish, rational creatures. It does not address, for instance, what should be done with the mentally ill, or those who steal/rape/kill for the pleasure of it (as opposed to need/provocation). If everyone is allowed to do what they wish, no one will have any recourse from injustice other than their personal firearm(s). Not exactly what I would call an ideal society.

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Hehehe, this thread its cooool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I didn't know you guys engaged in this kind of dixcuxions.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
My 2 cents:
1- The US its going to lose to the Arabs.
2- The US will collapse, probably into civil war, then the world economy will collapse, then everybody will be poorer, and we will live in world like in "Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel".

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Oh, and I forgot to tell that we will never make it to another planet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Depends on who you ask...

I would tend to think that a christian is anyone who believes in the christian god, ie; Christ. However I know certain christian sects have different definitions, for instance my in-laws are born-agains (or pentecostal or evangelical or whatever the heck it is) and according to their dogma only people of that particular denomination are christian.

I'm not sure exactly what they consider the catholics, lutherans, anglicans and all the other denominations to be - but they sure don't consider them "christian".

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You mean we're going to end up living in a state of post apocolyptic anarchy? Cool, I'll have to watch Mad Max and Akira and The Stand again, just to remind myself how to survive. i don't remember the details but IIRC the important thing is to have lots of motorbikes...

Anarchy is a nice idea, and one distant day it might even be made to work in some bizarre form (think Culture novels- although technically that's more of a benign deified technocracy, but I digress.) However, as Krsqk points out, you are at the mercy of petty criminals and maurauding warlords kinda like in Xena warrior princess.

That said I do think that ignorance and discontentment would be less widespread in a society with no "big biz" and therefore rape/ murder/ drug abuse/ violence would also be reduced (although not eliminated by any means.)

The other major bummer with anarchy is that it would probably result in technology being set back several hundred years, because modern tech relies on complex business and production infrastructures that would be very hard to maintain in an ungoverned state. You'd have a few mad scientists and small-scale technology producers here and there, but by and large the world would start to resemble some kind of Amish Paradise.

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THE END IS NEAR... quick everyone get out and buy duct tape and pLastic...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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A Christian would be defined as someone who believes in Christ as the Messiah. I've also heard it said that you have to believe in the resurrection to be a Christian.

Plenty of atheists believe Christ lived, but that he was just a very persuasive mortal man.

Muslims believe in Christ as an important prophet, but not the Messiah. Not sure were Judaism stands on that issue. Hindus/ Sikhs etc aren't stemmed from the same sources, so they probably don't care one way or the other.

Personally, I think you should only be able to claim Christianity if you go to church regularly, or at least pray a lot. I know plenty of people who claim to be Christian but haven't seen the inside of a church since some cousin got married. It doesn't bother me that much since I'm an atheist anyway, but it does seem hypocritical to claim christianity without actually doing anything to prove it.

I've probably just offended someone haven't I? Sorry, just IMO.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not offended, but Jesus never built a church, according to the Biblical account. In fact, he never once indicated that building a church was a good idea.
In Luke 21 we read,
Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."

The point being, it's just a building. It is temporary. It will go away. The final temple is man's body, the very image of God.

So, I think that Jesus would have a different definition of Kristjun (using the middle-eastern transliteration, since the religion is from that region) than you.

What a delima...who to believe. You or Jesus.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Good thing I am Jewish.

[ February 13, 2003, 16:54: Message edited by: Omega_Prime ]

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More than that !
"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly..." Matthew,6

Going to church have nothing to do with Christianity, IMHO.

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Fair enough, point taken.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Jesus said that His church was not a building, but the people. The church is comprised of the people who believe in Jesus as the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic law, and the earlier Messianic promises, and follow his commands and teachings. However, there is a practical need for a meeting place. In the early church days, people met in the homes of fellow believers. Roman persecution drove the church underground (often literally). After the legalization of Christianity, churches once again met in the open. When Constantine married the church and the Roman state, Christianity became somewhat of a fad among the Roman elite, who had previously been steeped in pagan tradition. They saw ornate buildings as a vital part of worship. The tradition of large, ornate church buildings can be traced back to this time. Modern churches generally fall into one of two camps: 1) Size and opulence are the way to go; or 2) Spend enough to get the building you need, and do it well, but not to excess. [edit] I guess there is a third group, the "whatever we can come up with is good enough for God." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

A Christian cannot be defined as one who goes to church or one who prays (although a Christian will do these things). A Christian is one who 1) accepts that Jesus died for the sins of the world, fulfilling the law, and for his own sins, individually. They should 2) accept the authority of the Bible over man's word and tradition, and they should 3) try to conform their life to the principles found in the Bible. Many who believe 1) don't accept 2) and live in direct contradiction to 3); according to the Bible, they are still technically Christians, but they don't live out their faith.

[ February 13, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But it was made to sound so sweet back then.
Privatizations would give us more efficient services. Relatively small and weak local companies fusioned themselves with large multi-national ones.
Little did we know that all infrastructure and resources of those companies bought below their real price was just being emptied and sent back to the new owners home.

To be fair I must say that this was not only done by American companies but also by many european ones.
The great companies that control the world has grown beyond nationalities and here the “great power from the north” is most times associated with the USA.

Exchange rates were against us, our goods were too expensive and imported goods looked cheap. We were suffering a severe de-industrialization, exporting flour and importing cookies.
But we were too busy with all cheap imported goods we didn't have before that we didn't see it.
“welcome to the 1rst world” they said, and we were stupid enough to believe.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you were an Argentinean producer (assuming most of the producers are still Argentinean) would you gift your production to the poor or export it to high price paying foreign consumers?
Social help by a state that can barely pay the salaries of its own employees is insufficient and inefficient.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is not anarchy at all. That would fall more under something like the theoretical form of communism (though not quite). Anarchy simply means no laws, no regulations, no government, no leadership at all, no rights, nothing. It is of course impossible, as within minutes someone would take charge. It could very well be the guy with the biggest stick (your might makes right), which would be a despotism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Mob mentality will always win over anarchy.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Depends on who you ask...

I would tend to think that a christian is anyone who believes in the christian god, ie; Christ. However I know certain christian sects have different definitions, for instance my in-laws are born-agains (or pentecostal or evangelical or whatever the heck it is) and according to their dogma only people of that particular denomination are christian.

I'm not sure exactly what they consider the catholics, lutherans, anglicans and all the other denominations to be - but they sure don't consider them "christian".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, being Christian means that you believe in the one God (and a very specific one), and that you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. Pentacostals, Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, etc. are all Christians, period. Some sects of Christianity wrongly see other sects as not Christian, but they are just misinformed.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Being Christian has nothing to do with going to church or not. There are a number of sects of Christianity that explicitly do not agree with church, and so have no churches and do not go to them. But, they are by all means still Christians. What you are talking about is being religious. Many westerners fall into the trap of confusing "Christian" with "religious" because Christianity is so dominant amongst western cultures.

[ February 13, 2003, 20:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Andrés,
The rest of the "developed" nations, will have to share the blame with the US for the rape of Argentina.
I apologize. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Making a developing economy fight on equal terms with US/Europe is like pitting the 82nd Airborne against Ceasars Praeorian Guard.

Re: [OT] Nation bashing
 

Andres, I don’t know how well traveled you are, but a lot of the problems you are talking about are present here in America. We have unemployment, poverty, homeless, starving, and etc. I don’t want to sound leftist, rightist, or communist, but a lot of that has to do with class struggle. In my opinion, A corporation is only concerned with it’s stockholder’s not country so they could give a damn if people are poor in Argentina or America. It just so happens that other factors are involved. Someone has to be blamed if people are starving, right.
Hypothetically, maybe Argentina blames the U.S., we blame someone else. For example Japan. This keeps allows some to maintain power, gives rise to Nationalism, racism, and host of other isms. Keeps the focus off the real problems and solutions. Certain books by George Bernard Shaw capture these ideals.
A key to a happy successful country/people is the businesses and governments doing things that will make the country stronger in the long run vs. short term goals. The next thing is to set up a situation where the government is forced to be selfless and look out for the interests of the people.
In short, we are all being had by the MAN. You fill in the blanks