SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Hi,

I'm in the process of coming up with variations on the GUI layout for consideration in SE5. I'll be sending my examples to Aaron in the near future. I'd like to hear any thoughts about your likes and dislikes with regard to the se4 GUI.

For one example, I'm designing a new 'visual tech-tree' for the 'Research' window. I'm aiming along the lines of a flow-chart type layout, but also have a few 'different' things that I might try. Do you think this might be a good thing?

NOTE: any and all comments on the se4 GUI are for reference only. Also any ideas about possible se5 GUI elements you care to share are to be shared freely. I cannot guarantee that I'll implement any in my design suggestions, and the only reward you can expect if I do include any, is perhaps an honorable mention and the knowledge that you have contributed to what might make it's way into SE5.

P.S. I'll also try to frequent the gamesnet #se4 channel for some live discussions.

Thanks, and have a Great Day.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Well, let me be the first to mention what most people jump in with early.

Ahem.

More windows-like.

OK, I want to say that I really like the look and feel of the current interface, which some people don't care for. I really agree that the interface for SE5 should be distinctive from the OS environment.

But I do want when I click on the scroll 3/4 from the bottom, the list to jump 3/4 of the way, not to the bottom.

I do want the page down key to jump to the next screen full, not the bottom.

I'd like mouse scroll button implemeted.

Overlapping windows may be a good idea, if implemented well. I have every confidence that you and MM can do it well. But the endless overlapping windows was what I hated about Outpost.

I'd like to see some examples of what you're working on so I can give more specific comments.

Oh ... one more thing ...

You're working on SE5 already? Wow! You guys sure are diligent about pleasing your customers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I thought you'd coast at least one more year. If only every software developer cared as much.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I would like the ability to name each individual ship with a pull down window like you can with the class names.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First, I'm just going to 'submit' some design ideas and examples to Aaron. As of right now I'm not working for MM or anyone else. I would like to get the contract to do the GUI Artwork for SE5, but I need to impress Aaron first. I also suspect that I'll not be the only artist submitting design ideas to Aaron. I'd like to hope that getting feedback from the end-Users (like you fine people here) will give me a bit of an edge to get the contract.

Second, it's my humble opinion that if Aaron has most if not all the GUI artwork done beforehand, the programming (coding) of SE5 will progress much faster. Also, I suspect that once Starfury is released, Aaron will be jumping full speed ahead on SE5. I believe I heard mention that he wanted Starfury to be finished by June 2003. That's comming up real fast. So I want to be ready!

Thanks for the list, it's a good start, even if most of the list has more to do with mechanics and gameplay. I'm mainly looking for comments on the 'visuals' I don't know how to draw a 'mouse scroll feature!' but I agree it should be implemented in SE5 (Gameplay features should be posted in the SE5 what's on your wish list thread!) And I thought I did a good job in naming this thread to keep it separate from the 'other' one! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Cheers!

[ February 20, 2003, 17:44: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I'd like to see a GUI that resembles more SE3 than SE4.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Another example of my thoughts for the se5 GUI is this.. Different GUI graphics (not layout) for each race in the game. Possibly done using a combo of textured 'skins' and minor visual changes to the window 'frames'.

This would of course have the desired effect of oppening up this 'visual' aspect to the 'modders' As is, the mods are limited to planets/races/ships and 'objects' the GUI look per say has not been moddable.

I think this would be a nice direction to go 'visually' speaking of course!

Cheers!

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

One of the features I have planned for the ever in development perpetually coming, LR mod, is themed GUIs.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be a bad idea. It would not incorporate tech levels very well, unless it was extremeley long.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Regarding what you Last said in the #SE4 channel before you left,
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wonder if it would be possible to have the ship models generated on the fly from components?

If you start with an empty grid (like the combat grid, say) and start placing components, then SE4 could pick "ship parts" from the shipset depending on the pattern of filled squares you're making, and draw that underneath. The 3D ship when completed could then differ between each ship class!
EG:
If you have a 2x8 block of design squares filled, then one shipset could specify that that looks like a chain of four green spheres, while another makes it into a capped grey tube.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

i see, similar to mech customization in games like mechwarior, and earthseige, where custom weapons show up on the hulls.

i think this would be hard to do for a small devlopment house, and if it was done, would end up looking blocky and clunky.

as for the UI design, i agree that moveable windows that follow general MS Windows API concepts (such as PgDn moving one screenload, and clicking on the scroll bar (not button) moving one screenload, and wheel mouse support) would be usefull.

I am not sure how usefull a graphical tech tree would be, there would be lots of crossing lines, since it is moddable and will have to be generated on the fly based on whatever techtree people want to load in.

I am also not so sure about the ship overlay thing. One idea I had for this, was to have blocks available on an overlay for component TYPES. then you could expand these blocks to put in as many of any that type of component (controll components, weapons, armor, engines, whatever) that you need. this would avoid having to scroll over the ship image, which i think defeats the purpose of having fixed spots overlaid on an image. It would also give you all the space you need.

It would also, optionally, allow for higher detail on ship designs. perhaps you could have both starboard and port weapons bays, each which can hold any number of weapons (or perhaps limit what each block of component types can hold) and has different hit probabilities in combat. maybe different armor facings, or armor could aply globlay. of course, this is totally not required.

I would like to see most of the UI effort put into systems and planet displays. I would like for systems either to be very detailed with moving parts, and varying orbital periods, OR, i would like to see them abstracted into static, liniar, displays of the major objects in the system, possibly seperated into inner system, outer system, and maybe a rim/gateway area where ships enter from or where WPs hang out.

Planet displays could be given some work, as well. I wont go into too many details, but more effort could be put into them, with the number of fields available. alot of these are code suggestions, and not UI ones. maybe diamater, density (which in turn calculate gravity) and distance from star (which in turn calculates orbital diamater) maybe display orbital space for each body, so objects in a sector (if the sector concept is kept) could either be in deep space, in orbit of a planet, or in orbit of a moon)

before i get carried away, i will shut up.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Zooming up a section of the ship when you click on it!
I like that idea.
The zoomed up areas should not have to be square, and should probably be determined by the hull type, and possibly racial bonuses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I'd like to be able to choose San Serif fonts for easier reading
I would like more contrast between colors in the numbers. I have a tough time with the color difference between the Minerals and Organics.
I would like Mono spaced font for the numbers so I can more easily read them
12340 takes up more room than
11111 with the current fonts.

I'd love a scroll mouse
I'd love more context sensitve help like is given by the buttons

Note the use of the word "I". I acknowledge I represent a very small minority of the players.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I think more "relistic" systems would be a plus (moving planets, more empty space).

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Gryphin:
Can't you just overwrite the Fonts in SE4\Fonts with something more to your liking?

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I know that this question is one that Atrocities may have already asked, but what about ship modeling? How will it be done? What program will be used, and will players be able to make and use their own ship sets?

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Suicide Junkie good point about substituing fonts.
Yes, I can. I tried once. I ran into a few problems. I have a vague memory of the mono spaced font was too wide. The Rads collum would overlap the Minerals.
I think the the San Serrif font was too big and overlapped other areas.
I'll have to try it again.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

SJ: Dynamically creating the ship model based on components would be cool, but depending on how you want done, it could prove hard to do. If you have 200 component types, then you will be making a ton of 3D models, all of which have to be loaded in memory. However, at the same time, a lot of components are in fact redundant, (make all weapons look alike, and stuff like that) so it could be possible. But the way it is (the models are already done for Starfury as it is) Maybe SE6.... (now youve got me thinking on how it could be done without much overhead)

For the GUI, definitely implement mouse wheels. I dont know if you have played any SimCity 4, but the GUI for that gives it accessibility to many complex operations but at the same time keeps it simple. (I mean the actual city building mode GUI)
Also, the multiple skins would be nice, just like StarCraft did it.
The techtree you desribe sounds like Civ2 or Civ3's way of doing it. I liked it for Civ, but I dunno about SE5

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Instar:
I didn't mean on the level of components, but rather overall ship shape.
Take a Norak Dreadnaught, for example. Each of the wings could be a hull piece, and if the design of your ship has a block of components (no matter what they are) that are arranged in a similar shape (3 square components in a row, forming a 6x2 block, for example) then the model used for rendering that ship gets a Wing Piece in that position.

Probably still not practical to actually do, but fun to imagine.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

What I would really like to see in SEV GUI is a completely skinnable, XML based GUI. This just extends even further the ability for the gaming community to modify the look of the game. So someone could design a UI that resembles a ship's bridge, with the system map/area/whatever it's going to be in the center, an expandable galaxy map at the bottom center that overlaps the system map when expanded, information screens on the sides (perhaps even an info1 and info2... left click loads into the left screen, right click loads into the right screen), and command buttons along the top.

Or, somebody could create a UI that looks remarkably like a bachelor's living room from the view of the couch. TV has the system map, the poster of the swimsuit model changes to an info screen when something's selected, galaxy map can be toggled on screen with the remote, or you could put it in picture-in-picture... clicking the beer and pizza on the table inputs a cheat code for you.

So, in short, don't lock the GUI down to something specific. Allow fans to change the very layout of the interface, not just the colors/bitmapped graphics.

David, I know not very much ideas for you there, but if you get the contract, be sure to bug Aaron about the skinnability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I'd like somekind of 3D map. A grid instead of a 2d map.
As in Elite II Frontier. (I think it was that game)

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be a bad idea. It would not incorporate tech levels very well, unless it was extremeley long.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*jumps excitedly*
Look at my sig!! Look at my sig!! Look at my sig!! Look at my sig!! Look at my sig!!

The screenshot link!

[ February 22, 2003, 00:25: Message edited by: Lemmy ]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I never 'bug' Aaron, but I will mention it. Having the GUI 'skinnable' would be a nice feature. As to weather the actual shape and placement of the different GUI parts can be user defined, I'm not the one to answer that!

Cheers!

[ February 21, 2003, 12:48: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Looks nice, but maybe some of those long "strings" could be condensed - i.e. instead of

shields 1 -> shields 2 -> shields 3 -> shields 4 -> shields 5 and shield depleting weapons

you could have

shields 1-3 -> shields 4 -> shields 5 and shield depleting weapons

in other words, any time you have a linear progression with no branches, just compress it into one box

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Alternatively, you could always compress the tech areas into one block, and label the outgoing lines with the level requirement.

For in game, you could have indicators, a bar, or just numbers to tell you how many levels you have so far.

Colour coding things to show whether it is researchable or not (or already done) would be a nice touch.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I would much rather have it look more like it did in SE3 than anything else. SE3 was good, because you could spend points on every available tech, and choose how much percentage of you want in each tech. SE3 was also good because you could see more info in the same space than you can in SE4, and much more than you would see in what David suggests for SE5.

What SE5 needs is to stay away from those lame graphics-intensive display modes that games often use these days. Nice and simple is always better in this area. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 22, 2003, 02:51: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

I see what you mean by the ship parts things.

XML skins... that would be great, but I don't know XML very well (other than how its like HTML and stuff, and some basic things in it)
Like I said, I really liked SC4's interface... it had like the 3 overview modes, and each mode opened up different tools, which were broad categories, with their own subsets opened by clicking. It prevents icon buildup (SEIV has this disease) but provides good amounts of accessibility. In this scheme of things, I would like it in the GUI to be able to make a few custom sets of submenus (for example, I could really use a set in SC4 with only heavy roads, high density everything, and water pipes).

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

David E:
Hope you get the contract. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Some input from me.
Remember KISS (Old Occams razor: Keep It Simple St... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). When it comes to the frames and buttons in games, less is usualy better. Keep the playing surface as big and clean as possible. Also make it scalable so people with big screens actually can use it. Since I started to play SEIV a lot on my home computer I have changed my resolution from 1280 x 1024 to 1152 x 864. By the time SEV is out, I will probably want to run at 1600 x 1200.

Also there should be several "main-screens", as someone already have suggested.
1: Building view (or something). Shows the system (without ships) and have information about all facilities and construction going on ( I especially miss an easy available list of systemwide facilities).
2: Movement view (or something). Shows ships and waypoints ++. Easy access to fleet information, easy navigation between systems.
3: Colonization View
4: ?

primitive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

It would be good if you could mod the gui design... So those who want that SE3 look can do it... And those who don't can make their star trek one etc...

[ February 23, 2003, 14:51: Message edited by: tesco samoa ]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Primitive, don't be afread to say the whole saying.. "Keep it simple, stupid!" I am one of the few remaining people on this earth that still makes extensive use of this philosophy. That's probably why I find it hard to find work in the industry. The current status quo in the industry is "Complicated works!, Dazzle them with an over abundance of useless eye-candy and they will be drawn to it like a moth to flame!" and another phrase that can be extruded from the current industry is "Gameplay is a thing of the past, leave it to the archioligists and retro-gammers." Today a game only has to be good enough to incite people to buy it, having a game good enough to 'play' is secondary and not really necessary to ensure sales. All you need is a game with a little potential and the promise of a patch to make it the best game ever! In support of this theory, I dare you to name a single game that has been released in the past 5 years that has not had a patch released following the release of the game.

But I digress. Like I said I'm a deciple of the KISS philosophy and have been all my computing life!

Oh, and IMHO Malfador Machinations have released game 'upgrades/tweaks' and mistakenly called them 'patches'! So I give them an exemption from any association with the 'evil patches' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Cheers!

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

David,
I agree and I think the other expression that applys is:
“If you can’t blind them with brilliance, baffle the with bull *****, I mean cow manure” http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
The only other games I have been as satisfyed with are Empire Deluxe and CIV II.
The GUI's on both of those were easyier but the games were less sophisticated / deep / complicated.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, just about any console game, simply because they can't be patched http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">YES.

Absolutely. Further, a smaller window, so that if you click on a given advance / tech level, you get a list of the benefits.

Possibly highlight all the lines leading form that advance's prerequisites, and the lines leading TO everything that advance is a prerequisite FOR.

Alternately, you should look at Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri game; the Datalinks segment dealing with technology advances (and the resultant facilities and vehicle parts / abilities) might be a good source of inspiration for presentation of information, and depth of crosslinkage.

On another issue -- I'd love to see Build, Research,and Covert-Ops queues all use the SAME mechanic. Return to the days of being able to build more than ONE thing at a given spaceyard at once ... at the cost of overall speed.

However, I'd like to see slider bars used as well; perhaps instead of "divide evenly", assign SPECIFIC percentages of available effort/resources, to each item in the queu; for Covert operations, referring to the SE4 model, this would mean you could assign 1% to your Counter-intel, and 99% divided up among various offensive projects ...

For spaceyards, you could have one yard building troops, mines, fighters, and starships. 5% for troops, 5% for mines, 25% for fighters, and 65% for starships (and if your ships' design costs little enough, you might still be pushing one out the doors every turn).

Also, using the Research and Intel queues from SE4 as a basic model ... this owuld allow "Carry over" of available spaceyard capacity form project to project. So if you spaceyard takes 80% of it's capacity to build X que item, and you have that item set to repeat ... in four turns, you have built FIVE of them (rather than the currentmodel, where you build FOUR of them ... spending time IDLE each turn).

I know this isn't all a GUI issue (the carryover), but the two are tied closely together, since it involves using a SINGLE interface for ALL Queues. 8)

Thanks for taking the time to seek input from the community!

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, you're quick SJ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I can tell you like to think outside the box, and that's a very good thing!

Cheers!

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is the opposite of everything MM has ever done.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be bad and would create much unnecessary clutter.

[ February 24, 2003, 00:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And why would that clutter Fyron ?
Do you ever give ship orders and construction orders at the same time ?

Too separate the screens will free up space to make valuable information available. To push a button to toggle between screens is really not a whole lot of work.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

It would clutter because it would require extra interface and extra work to get the same information.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

If done correctly, It would be less work to get information. Not just a little, but a lot.
There would be space available to put all that information you now need to collect from 3-4 winduws an pull-down menues right in front of you.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Starlancer

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only if you take space away from the maps, which is bad.

The colonization option that you proposes makes 0 sense. How would it be different than the Movement one?

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The colonization screen (or view) is the least important of my proposed screens, hence the question mark. But there are several advantages to have the view change when you want to colonize. It would be possible to put up information like: The planetary stats, If a colonization ship already is heading for that planet, what kind of population do I have available to load nearby, time of travel +++. There would be space enough to display this if all other information not necessary for colonization is removed.

David:
Sorry about “cluttering” up your thread. It won’t happen again.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually... pull down menues require clicking on the menu. You get all of this info at a single click now (or occasionally 2 clicks). Those menus would clutter up the screen with unnecessary menus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

alot of what we (and I) have been asking for, have jack to do with UI. here is what I would like to see, UI wise:

one main screen.

different data displayed, depending on what is on it.

2 major control bars:

the first has icons that select what goes on the main screen. icons are for things like Maps, Queues, Design, and Ledgers. or whatever you want to call them.

the second changes whenever the main screen is changed, and selects what subset you wish to display. if the map screen is up, you might flip between system and galaxy maps. or warplane / trade map vs political / border map. If the Queues screen is up, you might switch between construction, reasearch, and intel. if the Ledgers is up, you might switch between your financial spreadsheets, your empire details, planet lists, ship lists, whatever.

other than that, everything should be dynamic within the main window. the main control bar stays there, and the main display may have sub displays or command icons depending on which view you are in. for exaple of sub windows, i will describe maps, because everything else should be self evident:

the map window might have a small map and a large map, and depending on what view you are in, they will display different things. If the large map displays the galaxy, the small map will display the system clicked on. toggling to the system view with the second menu bar, the large map will display the expanded system view, and the small map will display the planet or storm or whatever is clicked on. toggling to the planet view (or sector view) the large map will display the planet or asteroid field details, and the small map will display the system view so that you can click on other sectors and look at other planets without having to flip between views.

the either map window may also have tabs to switch between displays, much like the planet view and ship view currently have tabs.

and there should be a button that lets us speak into the microphone and place orders, so that FBWs will come to our house with beer and munchies while we play se5.

[see also: Everything I Needed to Know About UI Design, I Learned From CARRIER COMMAND]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

On the map screen:
1. Option to notify the player when a planet empties its build queue.
2. Show friendly and (known) enemy ship designs when you right-click on them on the main screen.

[ February 24, 2003, 22:10: Message edited by: solops ]

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was released in May 2000.

Re: SE5: GUI design discussion..
 

Starlancer has no patch, well paint me blue and spank me twice! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I also found another game that never needed a patch 'Dark Colony' So I guess I was totally wrong in saying that there are no games out there that don't need a patch. But wait I said in the past 5 years, oops well that get's Dark Colony off the list, When was Starlancer released?

I don't need to know when, I'll concede the point and rephrase.. "..and there are even some games out there that don't require patches! Although they're few and very far between!" Is that better? LOL

Cheers!

P.S. Fyron said.. This is the opposite of everything MM has ever done.
I agree and that's why I gave MM an exemption, they have basically released 'Tweaks' and 'enhancements' I said they made the mistake of calling them 'patches' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 24, 2003, 12:24: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]