When AI scrap ships ?
 

I do not understand it. Full coffers, positive income, AI plays with bonus. Yet, at some moment it decides to scrap quite a few ships. Few turns later it start to build ships of same class. Normally it is not a big deal, ship here, ship there. But I saw several times how AI scraps base space yards ! Now THAT is a problem - in Proportions most shipbuiding is done by base space yards and AI can sometimes become completely stagnant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I use a very high "percentage of income for maintanence" in AI_settings, like 95%. May be that is problem. Would it help if I make it lower ? Once again AI has no resource shortages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ March 02, 2003, 07:11: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

All right. I asked this question long time ago and apparently nobody have any ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Why AI scraps ships when it has no problem with resources ?? I was hoping 1.84 fixed this problem
______________________________________________
2. Fixed - Computer Players which had a "Computer Player Bonus" set above
None were not using all of their bonus funds.
________________________________________________

But now I think not. AI is still scrapping ships even though the net income is possitive.
It really ruins Proportions game when AI scraps all orbital shipyards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

This is just a guess:

Perhaps the AI is hard-coded to scrap and rebuild ships and bases rather than refit old ships and bases. This would require less decision making on the AI's part. Perhaps this is a question for Malfador.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, AI refit ships very happily. That should not be a problem. However, it is possible that some ship/bases designs have not been improved for long time (no relevent advances) and AI scrap very old designs. But I am not sure about this. Of course MM can answer this but I did't have much luck communicating with him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif (no replays)

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Oleg how did you observe this?
Was the AI empire temporaryly switched to human control? In this case the computer bonus would not be granted anymore and if the maintenance costs exceed the production the activated minister will scrap ships.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

No, AI scraps ships still under its control. I keep track of save games (classic turns) and then take look back into them, switching AI to my control and checking the events log and statistics. Really puzzles to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

But this might be the cause! Did you check the empire status to see if the resources balance is negative? I believe when you switch to human control the empire looses its resources bonus and the minister therefore immediately starts to scrap ships before you start your turn.
I see the same thing too when I control the AI's but when I leave the AI undisturbed there seems to be no scrapping. However it's hard to be sure about this.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

You could test the theory about the switch to human control by running the game as a human player but turning on all the ministers. Of course, that wouldn't prove that it didn't do it when under complete AI control.

You could also play a game with the "constant view of all systems" turned on, but that would require carefully watching each turn to see if the AI's ships were suddenly vanishing, so that proabably wouldn't be easy.

Actually, it would be simpler to test the part of the theory about the bonus having the effect, by running a game with no AI bonus, and see if it happens.

Of course, you can't prove it doesn't happen - only prove that it does, unless it happens very frequently or predictably.

Another theory would be that maybe the AI scraps when it can't retrofit a design to the new design it likes, but I don't think that is the case. Hmm, unless the BSY design has something at higher tech levels that won't fit on the BSY hull - a 500kT space station only has 50kT space left after standard control components and the spaceyard. It has only 40kT after upgrading to cheap life support. Maybe then it has its design set to try to include other junk that would be over 40kT?

PvK

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am pretty sure this is not the case. See, I have several save games in row. Say at turns 10,20 and 30. Now I load turn10 game with my control and check statistics. Then I load turn 20 game, which progressed through turn 10 under AI and compare ships. What I see AI scraps all shipyards when it was fully independent.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did see it when I ran my empire with all ministers on. After a while, AI starts scrap ships when income is negative. I can live with this for sure. BUT, when I monitor detached AI with bonuses, it start scraping ships at about the same time !!! That means it either still do not "see" bonuses when scraping is concerned or it is indeed related to the upgrade issue. In any case, AI is still not performing well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Oleg I think you are right.
I did some observation in a simultaneous game, where you can login into an empire without turning it to human control. And indeed there were some empires thar scrapped the same type of non obsolete space yard base while building a new one of the same type. Without the AI bonus the resource spending exceeded the income which probably caused the scrapping. However the game had a high AI bonus (= 5x production) which was shown correctely in the empire status window.
My conclusion is that the AI indeed still does not take the bonus into consideration when he has to decide if scrapping is needed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Thanks, Q.

We all are very smug about how buggy is Moo3. But look here - after 3 years and many patches (thanks MM, I really appreciate your continious support of the game ! But still..) there is an apparently simple but devastating AI bug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

To the best of my knoweledge, there will be no new patch any time soon if ever. Then question is what can we do. What effect has "maintanence percent of resources" in AI_settings on AI ? Does it count when AI decides to build ships or when to scrap ? Or both ? It is important to know if I want to make it, for example >100% or alternatively very small.
Any ideas ?

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

I tried a value >100% for maintenance limit in the settings.txt file for the race I observed. No effect.
The problem IMHO is that the beta-testing for SE IV works suboptimal. I do not criticize the beta testers - they do a great job - but the system. If you make a fix like the one of the maintenance limit, MM should give a couple of beta testers the precise job to check it. As far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong!) nobody coordinates what the beta testers actually test. It's open to everybody what they do and therefore some features are never really tested and bugs persist for years. Another example is the "change bad intel chance" ability that never got to work.
For SE V this should be changed IMHO.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How exactly did you test it ? remember - AI does not read settinds.txt file during the game. Moreover, it is stored in .emp file (I think - but may be wrong). Thus, file changes will not affect games in progress and you may have generate new .emp file too !

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

.emp files don't store any AI information- just race setup.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wrong - it stores strategies for example and does not read them from AI_strategies file. This is the reason for infamous complaints about TDM Orks' - the supplied emp file was generated before author added new strategy selection to AI_design and AI_startegies files. But AI reads only design but not strategy and spits Messages !

I am pretty sure same goes for settings file - SE reads it only once, when race/player is generated !

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I changed the value in the running game, but I am 100% sure that the settings.txt file is read at least for some values during the game: I increased recently during the ongoing game the number of drones per target in the settings.txt file of a race and the effect was seen almost immediately.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

That would be your problem, then.

The racial stats cannot be changed during the game.

EMP files are essentially a script for quickly filling in the racial trait choices during the game setup.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

I did the following check in the simultaneous game I described before:
- picked a race that did not scrap (because maintenance was only about 60% of the income without AI bonus).
- lowered the maintenance limit from 80% to 10%.
- next turn this AI race scrapped a ship!

Conclusion: the maintenance limit is read during the game and low values will increase scrapping.
I do not know why values higher than 100% don't work, but it might be a hard coded limit.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Ok, how about this test :

Set "largest hull" for first 10 turns = 300.
generate the empire with this setting. Start a game. AI will make design only destroyers, transports, etc.
Now, exit the game, edit AI_settings to mke ai design larger ships, sey up to 1000. Start SEIV, with the old emp. file. - AI still designs small ships only. Changes in AI_settings are ignored !

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Ok, I thought you were referring to settings.txt, and the maintenance reduction limits, along with the racial trait choices related to it.

Since you are talking AI_settings.txt, that is completely different.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oleg did you save the ship design in the emp file?

PS. Repeated your test with an empire file that had no ship designs saved: the change in the maximum ship size in the AI settings.txt file worked perfectly.

But back to your original topic: I agree that this bug is extremely bad for the AI performance because it annihilates almost completely the AI bonus effect for resources. I had the impression that even at high bonus AI empires had not that much more ships than I, if we had more or less the same empire size. But I blamed it on imperfect contruction files and trusted that the bonus worked.
I mailed this now to MM and asked for a fix. Even a mini patch with nothing else would be great.

[ June 03, 2003, 10:21: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Thanks for communicating the bug to MM. May be will be blessed with a new patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I still have ship size not changed when I change AI_settings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
And no, I did not save ship designs. Very strange indeed.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Yes, I too would love to see a mini patch to address the AI using the bonus correctly. It would be easy and would greatly enhance the competitiveness of the AI. There is the problem with using the bonus for scrapping ships mentioned here and also for overridding ai_planet_types discussed here in the death match 2 thread. Has someone contacted MM about that as well?

And what exactly is the best method for communicating with MM?

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

I cannot confirm the problem. I have set up a game with the EA, one empire under human control, the other computer with high bonus.
In the next step I activated the ministers for the human empire except for ship movement (so no colonies were set up) and de-activated ministers in the computer empire likewise.
After some turns the human empire hit the maintenance limit with 8 ships, using up some of the stored resources.
The computer empire had build 15 ships in this time. It had crossed the maintenance limit by 5k minerals (because the bonus was now gone after human control). It still had full storages, a sign that it had no lack of minerals at all in the past turns.
My conclusion is that bonus are working quite well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not as familiar as the others about what is going on. Here is a guess nevertheless. Wouldn't it be the ship movement minister that would have to send the ships to be scrapped? Thus the AI can produce ships above the maintenance limit, but at some point it starts scrapping the same ones it is building. What if it is the ship movement minister where the bonus is not taken into account as far as scrapping goes?

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Not so simple. I did see bonused empires going minus without scrapping. But then something clicks and AI starts scraping for no apparent reason. It just like some sort of flag that activates scrap minister and he does not go away after. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I have no explanation right now.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Anyone tried setting maintenance level to zero or -1 to see if it causes the scrapping to stop altogether in a puff of illogic?

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

AFAIK, the scrap minister moves ships on his own, just like the resupply and retrofit ministers do. I'm assuming the "ship movement minister" is actually the attack, defense, patrol, and exploration ministers (all the individual ministers can move ships, in fact, except for facility construction and possibly space yard ships).

We'll figure out how to set the maintenance properly the same time we figure out fleet experience. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

I don't think Scrap minister (curse him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif ) )moves ships. He scraps any ships that are currently sitting over shiyards. Unfortunately, that makes shipyard bases primary candidates, as well as population transports. Attack ships, which are usually away from the planet or in the fleet, seldom get scrapped.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Just an idea: AFAIK, AI can not retrofit or scrap ships with cargo. What if I rename construction baces to curriers and add one fighter bay ??
Will AI still use it for construction ? Hmmm..

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Here is the savegame:
1054815517.zip

It is a simultaneous game with the standard SE IV Gold Version 1.84. No passwords needed. Just login as the Phong (who are an AI empire) and control the log and empire status: You will find that a ship has been scrapped although there are more resources generated (AI high bonus included) than needed and the resource storages are full. And an identical ship type as the one scrapped is under construction at the homeplanet!!

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Uh, sorry Q, that is possible. However I think it is not a game breaking bug because the scrap minister will only kick in if the ship has no other orders. Usually important AI ships always have an order.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

In normal SE, yes. But in some mods, like Proportions, maintaining healthy infrastructure on orbit (about 10 space yards) is absolutely vital for AI well being. I made changes to my AIs, so they have space yards at top of every state in construction_vehicles file. It does not solve the problem complitely, but at least AI build space yards at the same time it destroys them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif :
1054841329.zip

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

I did not realize why the questions on the AI Campaign Thread.

Sorry, Oleg…

I am a latecomer to this thread, so I will try to catch up.

Oleg, may I ask you to try THREE things with your Proportions AI.

1: Change the settings file line to [Retrofit Max Percent Difference in Cost ~~~~~ := 70 instead of 50% just for the test.

2: Please use Proportions Abbidon or a file similar to its AI Vehicle Construction File.
~~~
EDIT:
It may be best to have the top line a Weapon Platform or troop.

All AI states with the SAME Planet Per:=0 and Must have at least:= 5<>(whatever) for this test.
Entry 2 Type ~~~~~~~~~~:= Base Space Yard
Entry 2 Planet Per Item ~~~:= 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least~:= 5

Followed by any Ship, Defense Base, units etc type.

*That is if 5 BSY's is affordable plus what else your AI is needing to accomplish (resource expenditure wise) Otherwise use a MHAL # that will be Common.

***This is important, it gives you a conformed Bench Mark thru out your test.

Or just clump most or all in just one or a few AI States. You will still need the bench mark for the test.
~~~

3: Start the test with a NEW game only influenced by your new Settings file. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

You need too be sure that the all current BSY Proportion Designs and next BASE YARD upgrade for that AI is obtainable and legal for the AI as well, before running the test.

=========

With above now true, I expect something to clear up for you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am assuming that this is just happening to your BSY's or is it all your AI ships and bases?

I have never seen this happen in an alarming scale with Proportions, in the Past. Pre se4 v1.84. And then it was just some early Def. Base Design.

PLEASE POST, on your derection or progress, Oleg.

[ June 05, 2003, 22:34: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

BUMP

Oleg,
Are you adding PLATE armor to your Proportion MODS AI Designs that you are having proplems with?

[ June 05, 2003, 21:46: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Question: did the human empire start to scrap ships in your test? If yes, try to switch this human empire to complete AI control and the former (not scrapping) AI empire to human control.
My test involved bases that were scrapped by the AI while in the same turn he completed the construction of an identical base at the same location as the scrapped one! So the construction is not impeded and the bonus are added to the storage correctely. That's not the bug. The bug is according to the observation we made, that the decision of the AI to scrap or not to scrap does not take the bonus into consideration.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

All my AIs have 90% maintanence. May be I should try 100% next http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I made changes in construction files and posted files here (two Posts down). I think AI will work better now.

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

I am happy it cleared up for you, Oleg
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hmmm, I hope Qs non-Proportions, Base se4 Stock test, clears up, and now with out the Bug that has been mentioned. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

EDIT:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also, The Data/Settings.txt File with the above setting of 70% was for the test, and too High for regular play. The AI will scrap less obsolete designs and all the ships/bases that do get retrofitted by the AI (if late arriving to its Ship Yard) will cost an immediate fortune, and Possibly tie up Repair do to the majority of new comps added.

I have always had 60% for AIC Settings, and this is perfect for the AI.

[ June 06, 2003, 19:38: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oleg,

I down loaded ALL the files from the Link you posted and the LAST AI change is all dated 6-1-03
Days ago. Before you posted this resolution? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ June 06, 2003, 16:56: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Thanks

You just reloaded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Thanks for droping the PICS this time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Just redownload. All set.

[ June 06, 2003, 16:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

Did this actually get a solution? Setting 100% maint rate?

I think the cargo thing would work too. Slightly older Versions of Proportions gave some cargo to the shipyard component, which I removed mainly because it was annoying folks in some cases, and because of JLS' concern about the power of mine-SYS ships. Also the AI was getting units pointlessly stuck in base cargo because that's their default start position when built, and the AI is too dumb to transfer cargo. Of course, that could save the bases from scrapping...

Ugh. I think if I ever do Proportions 3.0, it will definitely have the AI get advantages to compensate for its stupidity, instead of trying so hard to make it play by the same rules as humans. Just give them racial tech that has next-to-zero maintenance, for instance. Sigh.

PvK

Re: When AI scrap ships ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do, we see another AI Campaign game in the makings - PvK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif