Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

From my perspective Proportions focusses upon building up and expandation close to reality in many areas. Builder-Style, that's what I prefer most of it, and I would like to see a sphere world full of Colony World Cultural Centers or Arcologies *dream*. Recently I thought about ways to modify game settings and maybe some other game physics to eliminate -or maybe almost eliminate- the political (diplomatics and war *sigh*) aspects of it, and also I would like to slow down exploration extremely. If I think about the approach to the realism of colony expandation, the possibility to cross the whole quadrant with 2 efficient engines plus some supply cargos on a small scout ship from the beginning is too fast; just my taste probably.

Some draft ideas, without any deeper evaluation yet:

-No warp connections
-High research costs
-Poor start
-Double or triple "engines per move" in VehicleSize.txt
-Guzzle supplies, maybe four or five times the current amount
-Restrictions to resupply research tree
-Very few, probably just one AI race, just to see how many centuries it takes until first contact and to compare the AI development under these conditions
-Micromanagement would not take that much time until wormhole openers are researched, so the first couple of decades or centuries might take about as long as I find the F12-key.

Any more ideas probably?

@olek, PvK, if you read this:
I am not sure if I should even setup with an AI race or if they would do many reasonable things with no warp connections. Maybe I stop it directly at the month of first contact, in case of my personal survival... But just in case, which race(s) would you take?

[ March 16, 2003, 17:55: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Interesting idea. I have played games a little like this, with the warp points disconnected. It was very interesting, and even more interesting when I finally got stellar manip and broke out to find all the AIs.

Oh, and I have seen a sphereworld full of cultural centres... Just use the map to have a sphereworld as your homeowrld. It's pretty impressive.

As to your question... maybe you could start a game with just you and the neutrals.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

PsychoTechFreak

Why would you "maybe almost eliminate- the political (diplomatic and war *sigh*) aspects of it"; is this just for the AI, in a Solo game or every player?

[ March 03, 2003, 17:13: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I just thought about ways to somehow stress or accentuate the aspects of building and peaceful expansion under almost real conditions. Also, it would eliminate a big part of micromanagement for a long time to avoid that it could take several years of my real life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
It would be impossible for PBW or more than 2 or 3 players anyway, because you somehow need a kind of time lapse function for centuries in a slowed down proportions game.
My first draft setup was even about a solo game without any AI, but then I thought it might be nice to see at least one alien race at the end (SETI), just for the interest in AI development under extreme conditions.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I also agree, with allot of aspects in most of your Points. PsychoTechFreak

[ March 03, 2003, 18:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ditto. I wouldn't mind playing such a game. Can anyone do the programming for that?

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

[quote]Originally posted by gregebowman:

Quote:

I wouldn't mind playing such a game. Can anyone do the programming for that?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can reduce the capacity of the Supply Storage I, to about 250 to 300 with a 100kt increase per level after. That will limit your range some what (50%), but MAY increase the micromanagement aspect slightly by possibly requiring escort tankers for other ships. If some micromanagement is a big issue with you.
However, I like the way PvKs Proportions currently plays; especially with large Resources and Empire Storage for multiplayers!!!

[ March 03, 2003, 20:13: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I never tested AI in such settings. If you like I can tweak AI "not connected" state for your game. It should not be very difficult, mainly changing AI_research.txt file. Tell me what races you want to include - piundon, krill, cryslonite, nostropholo, drushocka, ukra-tal, soul hunters and pequenino use my AI and I'see what I can do.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Foundations mod was a bit more like that, because you started out with Chemical Thrusters (markedly weaker and shorter-ranged than Ion Engines), and that was also before I added the Efficient Engines in one of the early Proportions patches. Increasing the supply use of effcient engines to closer to regular engines would help achieve the effect you're looking for. You could also reduce the supply capacity of all engines.

Also, a major element speeding expansion beyond the design's intent is the ability to build colony ships using space yard ships, so you can build the colonizers at the frontier.

One very spiffy idea (of SJ's, or Geo's maybe, I don't remember - sorry) was to run a "turn blitz" Proportions game on PBW, where there is a automatic turn every hour or so, so players focus on long-term actions, leave most details to the ministers, and get to see a lot of long-term development. This could be done either for the whole game, or just to advance it to a certain point, say 500 turns, and then slow down to a normal rate, in order to play with a more advanced state.

PvK

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks for your offer to help with it.
Yet I would like to take a race with organic trait and another one with religious. But I need to take a closer look to them (hopefully I can get to it tonight) to be more specific.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will take a look into Foundations (Gold-CD?) to maybe take some ideas out of this, maybe it becomes a Foundations-Proportions mix? Efficient Engines, I think I would probably just remove them. Supply Cargo components are the next problem for reducing ship ranges.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is what I find myself doing ALWAYS. SY ships moving to planets, create empty colony, send medium transporters for population. The colonizer slow down problem is just circumvented by this kind of exploitation. I am going to think about other solutions to use the system in a way that has been intended by you, but I guess this might lead to other side effects, let's see.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is just an early state of an idea yet. Most of PvK's proportions mod and intentions will be unchanged, of course and I think I could need PvK's help/answers in some cases. But I am going to give it a try, it needs to be balanced in several of the aspects that have been already mentioned. Also, some AIs for a game like this would be nice. First let's see how it will develop, side-effects on gameplay and such.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought you were planning to remove this exploit by reducing the org output of mobile spaceyards or something.

[ March 04, 2003, 11:05: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pete,
Will this put the Ship in a possible supply problem and cause it not to sentry in some cases even one move away? Would it then be a must now to install at least one Supply Storage Bay to avoid sentry problems even after a refuel, by a supply ship?

There may be criticism that 2 engines carry the same amount of [Supply Storage] as one Supply storage bay, and what engineer would do this, but I look at the engine supply; indicative to the math required to have a ship move a desired distance to the designers intent. One could also change the sentence to read something other then 'Descr := Can store 250 units of supply' to lets say the (Pulse from a Ion Engine ???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif ????? I don’t know, you’re the writer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I just fix refrigerators for a living http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 17:01: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I mean that I did not test my AIs for not connected state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I checked your AIs scripts and envy how good it is set ! I will do some work and post updated files ASAP.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I mean that I did not test my AIs for not connected state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I checked your AIs scripts and envy how good it is set ! I will do some work and post updated files ASAP.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Actually I think yours are good to go as well in AI Not connected!!!!!
And your AIs in other areas accomplish things in a better way then Abbi's and CC.
Please, don't you misunderstand me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What I was saying, it seemed like it was implied that Proportion 2.53 was't good to go in all AI files that are packaged. I beleive they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 15:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I mean that I did not test my AIs for not connected state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I checked your AIs scripts and envy how good it is set ! I will do some work and post updated files ASAP.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Actually I think yours are good to go as well in AI Not connected!!!!!
And your AIs in other areas accomplish things in a better way then Abbi's and CC.
Please, don't you misunderstand me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What I was saying, it seemed like it was implied that Proportion 2.53 was't good to go in all AI files that are packaged. I beleive they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I REALlY did not try them in Non Connected for more than few turns ! Somehow I did't think many people will use this setting. My mistake.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

What I like best for the AI that you accomplished. Oleg, is your Support Ship Design.

Good stuff.

I and a lot of other Moders have followed your example, since!!!

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I should better not remove anything, just change values, right? Otherwise, I guess the AI ship designs might get in trouble.

Spaceyard components with reduced org output, great idea. Gimme more like this... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I guess one reason for PvK has not done this yet could be the running games on PBW? I mean... you know what I mean.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Yah, I was going with the premise you wanted to mod out the AI (some what). From earlier or was it the first post in this thread.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 16:21: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I steal the concept from Master Belizarious' Aquelian/Pyrochette AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Support ship design and "offensive sweepers". He should be credited with this ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I steal the concept from Master Belizarious' Aquelian/Pyrochette AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Support ship design and "offensive sweepers". He should be credited with this ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I learnt from you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Thats what counts to, me!
Meaning no offense to Master Belizarious.

[ March 04, 2003, 17:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">~
Hmmmm, maybe Proportions 3.00 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 19:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Its a mod that he wanted to make, but was too ambitious to be done in time, so he made Proportions instead, which is part of what Foundations is supposed to be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think Foundations was going to be a "complete" mod, as in it would change everything about the game, including the basics of the tech tree and all that stuff.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I surely hope PvK will release it eventually. Even if it is not complete, with so many Proportions enthusiasts around we can make it work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AGREED

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

oleg, blame me, but could you point me to the SoulHunters shipset, please?

Everything else I have found.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

It is in the B5 Mod. It should also be available on the PBW files library. I know I uploaded a copy of it a long time ago so I could use it on PBW, though I might have called it Shag'Toth instead of Soul Hunters (as Shag'Toth is their "correct" name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Download from Proportions page:
http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/
Just scroll down a little. AI is not the latest,
you can find it in race dowload forum:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000001

fith or sixth post down. Sorry, don't have zip file here on work. If there are problems, ask and I'll send from home.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Thanks. PvK's page is bookmarked, but obviously I always look on top of the page http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I think my Favorites for the setup could be Shag'Toth/SoulHunters and UkraTal, so I would have a religious and an organic race.

I have created a small test setup and I am going to let it run overnight:

No WPs, Large mid-life quadrant, no events, everything medium, one planet start, 5000K empires (BTW, I have noticed some glitches in the empire setups for: Drushocka, Pequeninos, Piundon and a smaller one (150 pts not set) in UkraTal).

Following AI races are involved in this little pre-test:

-Krill (olegs latest and greatest)
-Cryslonite
-Nostropholos
-SoulHunters/Shag'Toth
-UkraTal (with 150 pts. not set)

Let's see if my watching empire will be crunched up tomorow morning. I could do a snapshot of the races and what they are looking for, before I go to bed tonight.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you tell us more about running this over night?

Is there a program that will run many turns automatically for you, so you can test the AI.

I would be interested in this!

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you tell us more about running this over night?

Is there a program that will run many turns automatically for you, so you can test the AI.

I would be interested in this!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you look for a professional solution, Master Belisarius Batch program would be the right thing for you. If I find it again, I will post the according thread here:

...

Here you go:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=004661;p=1

What I am doing in this (no WP) case is just:

-setup a human controlled race
-setup the AI races
-go to the human races empire setup window
-turn off everything on top of it (display log at beginning of turn, display confirmation for end turn and so forth)
-then I put a coffee mug onto my F12 key http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 21:50: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you tell us more about running this over night?

Is there a program that will run many turns automatically for you, so you can test the AI.

I would be interested in this!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you look for a professional solution, Master Belisarius Batch program would be the right thing for you. If I find it again, I will post the according thread here:

...

What I am doing in this (no WP) case is just:

-setup a human controlled race
-setup the AI races
-go to the human races empire setup window
-turn off everything on top of it (display log at beginning of turn, display confirmation for end turn and so forth)
-then I put a coffee mug onto my F12 key http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">THANKS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Here you go:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=004661;p=1

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

10 years:
Krill have researched all colonizing techs, every planet of the home system is colonized.
Next research goals: ship construction 6, sensors, no astrophysics yet.
Nostropholean similar to Krill, everything colonized, no astrophysics.
Cryslonite: All colony techs researched, but just 50% of the system is colonized. Basic facilities, like the two above: research center1, miner1...
SoulHunters: All colony techs, everything colonized, looking for ship constr.5, sensors, torpedoes,PDF
UkraTal: All colony techs, everything colonized, looking for PDF3,sensors2,org tech1,ship constr.5

about 50 years:
Krill have opened two WPs to adjacent systems. Researching SM5.
Nostropholean: research for SM1, planets are filled with cities, major cities, upgrades to major cities in progress.
Cryslonite similar to Nostropholean, but still 45% of the system not colonized (?)
SoulHunters same as Krill, 2 WPs open, SM5...
UkraTal is researching for SM3, still basic facilities, no upgrades, no cities, just research center 1s, miner 1, org fac.1 and such. They had a bad start, poor system, just a few planets.

I expect the Krill are going to get me soon, they are not that far away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oleg, I may be misunderstanding? But all the AI is already programmed for AI State: Not Connected since well before Proportions 2.53 and are good to go in all AI files that are packaged (I believe) with Proportions 2.53. A matter a fact the Abbidon and CueCappa are already programmed to Continue a balanced research program even if they are left in one system from the beginning of the game and this was programmed prior to July of Last year. That was one of PvKs requirements! So players could play with [all warps connected] off… For some neat Map generated combinations! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I still need to get Peter an Update on them for Plate Armor but other then that there good to go in AI State: Not Connected!. (Open Warp Ship protocols where tested Last year, but I doubt the new upgrades changed those any)

(PVK, I will Email the armor update for you end of week for the Abbi And the CC).
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 13:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Its a mod that he wanted to make, but was too ambitious to be done in time, so he made Proportions instead, which is part of what Foundations is supposed to be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think Foundations was going to be a "complete" mod, as in it would change everything about the game, including the basics of the tech tree and all that stuff.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's right. Foundations was Proportions plus some "grit tech" elements at the low end of the tech tree, and a reworking of much of the tech tree, new weapons and techs, changes to all the weapon abilities, new racial tech trees, at too much more for me to get done.

I wanted to complete Foundations mod for the Gold CD, but ran out of time to enter all the changes I had planned. The changes to the "proportions" were there though, so I removed the rest made it into a mod mainly just to the proportions of the game.

I am starting to think maybe I should try to see if there are volunteers to help implement Proportions 3 and/or Foundations. It's a ton of work just figuring out what to do, and a cubic ton of work to actually do it, but maybe if we divide it up amongst some volunteers, it could work out. Of course, that still leaves a ton for me to do first... ;-)

PvK

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

As for the volunteers, I guess there will be some. I am probably more on the testing front and maybe some of the easier mod issues, but I would be happy to do at least what I can to make FOUNDATIONS happen. Just let us know...

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I've never actually done any modding, but I'll help any way I can.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Ok. there is a HUGE AI problem in non-connect state. It is a famous "colony ship bug" described by Master Belizarious in "AI death match problem". It is a general AI problem and is not related directly to proportions or any particular AI. There is a way to fix it and I'm working on few Proportions AI. If you can delay the start of your game a little, I'll post modified files.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, I never liked 5K start up and may let some mistakes creep in. Sorry about that. Just readjast points as you see fit ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, I have not even started to tweak the files for it yet. I expect the main part of the adjustments will not take place before Friday and I think I need at least the whole weekend to fiddle out the settings... Take your appreciated time.

I will see what I can for the empire files, but in some cases there have been +/-2000 pts and even the recommended racial traits are not easy to put together. I just do not want to screw up the AI with it.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, I have not even started to tweak the files for it yet. I expect the main part of the adjustments will not take place before Friday and I think I need at least the whole weekend to fiddle out the settings... Take your appreciated time.

I will see what I can for the empire files, but in some cases there have been +/-2000 pts and even the recommended racial traits are not easy to put together. I just do not want to screw up the AI with it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As long as you keep the same traits as for 2000 start and simply beef up statistics, there should be no problems at all. Some "neutral" traits like "propulsion expert" or "hardy industrialist" would work fine as well.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You haven’t started Proportions 3.00 yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
You know I'm in and you know what I like to work on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
So start delegating; PvK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

NOW! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 05, 2003, 18:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Thinking about the spaceyard component tweaks. I understand the restriction of organic output to let's assume 50% or maybe 25% to circumvent the 1turn colonizer builds. It should be harder to clone or replicate organic material in space anyway, but not too much because of the organic races (org. armor and such) should not be screwed up with it. Another possibility could be to increase the organic needs of a colony pod AND additionally decrease of SY organic output by 50%. I mean, a colony pod could use some more than 2000 org vs. 3500 min.

PvK, was it intended to use SY components on transporters (cargo capability in question), or is it a kind of compromise?

oleg, I am going to look into your ship designs and some AI usage out of the simulation test also, but I appreciate if you provide any comments regarding SY component usage of the AI.
After >60 years all of the WP opening races are lacking minerals, organic cargo is full (as expected). All right, SM ships are expensive. A soulHunter Planet creator has been built with a religious talisman (no weapons), 17K min maintenance costs.

[ March 05, 2003, 20:15: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ooops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Will take a look. I posted new Version of my AIs. The should work MUCH better in Non-connected games !

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Nobody was this willing to help out with Adamant Mod when I asked for help. Oh well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Well, there is only that much time we can spend playing, I wish I could test all mods http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I looked again on the proposed game specifications (poor homeworld, no AI bonus) and I have some doubts that any AI will not go bankrupt.

IT is very difficult to make AI for Proportions.
In a normal game all planets are more or less equal. If you have 10 planets, you are about 10 times better off than a guy with just 1 planet. Accordingly, AI files use "planet per item" as a rule. There is a resonably well operating AI feedback loop - more planets you have, more resources you produce, more ships you can afford. Thus, a good written "normal" AI can operate in a wide variety of settings - 3 planet start - no problems, expand 3 times faster, have 3 times more ship. High AI bonus - fine ! more planets, more ships.

The Proportions' situation is completely different. Guy with 10 colonies + homeworld does not have 10 times more resources than the guy with one homeworld. With luck, it would be just 50% more ! Hence - "planet per item" is inoperable for Proportions' AI. All Proportions' AI construction_vehicles.txt work mainly by "must have" option. As a result, there is almost no feedback and Proportions' AI are very inflexible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Change AI bonus to high - it still build almost the same number of ships. AI programmer must have some specific game set in mind up when tweaking AI. For example I target one homeworld, low bonus/non bonus set-up. AI should not overspend resources but must provide a challange with low-bonus. Obviously, medium/high bonuses are nice but in fact AI will underperform, it could be made much more frightening http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now, I do not know how it will work with poor/no-bonus start. You may have to reduce all "must have" numbers by third. Just keep in mind this dumbed down AI will be a pushover in normal games ! Alternatively, You may still use low AI bonus. I do not think AI will kill you giving its poor homeworld http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 07, 2003, 13:39: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As would a Human player have a tough time of it; in Poor Home World Set up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, as all Mods. SMAC, CTP, AOE etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Allot depends what that AI’s priority is at that time; a planet is considered for colonization. Then the Planet_Types file and the Facility_Construction files of that AI race, as it relates to the AI’s personality of the designers intent.
Also there are times the AI has a predetermined colony type locked before the colony ship is even Built and before what planet is to be considered.
More planets: do relate to more ships in most cases, however I can guarantee you this, it does not always equate to more Resources as strongly as you may think. For the reasons above and the fact that one AI may have 4 moons, domed, breathable, etc; No designer can know exactly what the next game will offer to the AI.
But if you know your MAP related files well, for the MOD you are preparing the AI for, you can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start in respects to the AI.
Then you have succeeded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I hope that made, some sense!
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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, one way to look at this for example:
If in a brand new Human Multiplayer game start, I would not despair or dropout while playing Proportions; even if my Home System had no land able planets, no breathable planets even if the neighboring systems are sparse.
Because my Home World would be just as good as the other Human Player, and with that, I can and (have) grown strong enough to contend with the leaders even with the very poorest of starts.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think what you may want to consider is the bigger picture, when you Work the AI’s Files, you are also working on the MOD, so a post-release change with the AI’s files will/could change the Mods chemistry dramatically ….

Crystals
For example: If you add
Entry 5 Type := Colony (Gas)
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Colony (Rock)
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 180
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colony (Ice)
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 160
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 4
~
Crystals
To what was:
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2

The above now possible changes to your sets that you have made available for download looks harmless but will have a bigger impact then you think on Proportions 2.53 over all…

As a recommendation only. That you make patient little changes to a Post-Release AI and then test the effect on its Parent Released Mod thoroughly.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start, in respects to the AI. Then you have succeeded.
This way all changes from (default) may be Automatically addressed by the AI better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 07, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

The AI appears to have severe problems with "no WP connected" anyways. I will repeat another test with high bonus and 10 planets start but I guess it will not be much better:

-new Krill AI 5000pts, mining aptitude impressive
-no WP connected
-medium settings (I have dropped the idea of poor start), no bonus, 1 planet start

game date: 2827 (427 years later)
-TWO WPs have been opened, a WP opener ship is surfing through the systems just sucking up minerals (25K/turn), mineral resources zero, org+rad is filled completely.
-7 ships and a few sats, a medium breathable planet 2 sectors away from home is filled with megalopolies, the other planets are fairly developed with monoliths, megaplexes
-Researching for SM 8 (sphere world placement generator, mmh, maybe I should let it run for another while...)

With all of the other tests before, I have never seen AI opening more than 2 WPs yet.

Some thoughts about the rest of the game setup, although it will be boring if the AI will be that inactive:

-Guzzling supplies. I have created two additional racial tech entries without costs: supply usage +50% and supply usage +100% to get some experience with it. A first level colonizer with supply cargo I (6000) would have supplies for 25 sectors if supply guzzling (30%) and +100% is set. Funny, the restricted traits that are set for guzzlers do not work, I mean you can set what you want, e.g. power conservation and guzzling to get a reduction by 25% + an increase by 30% (makes not much sense, I know).

-I have found some objections against the mass increment, or "engines per move". If I would increase them too much, the long range weapons become too overpowered. And if the colonizer would e.g. just move 1 sector per move with 8 engines it would be no difference if it has supplies or not (because of the min. 1 emergency drive).

-Human players should do some self-restrictions, like: it is not allowed to build troops or colonizers in space. I still favor the idea to decrease organic output of SY components drastically and additional to that I would prefer higher organic costs of colony pods. It has to take some 10 years to build a colony with a SYS, so that colony ships would have to be launched from planets only and always. OTOH this would be bad for organic races, any ideas to circumvent that?