Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree that this is a way to fix the problem.
But you will need 3 entries in the building queue instead 1.
Ok Is not a problem itself, but think would be better that the AI should decide what kind of colonizer need to build, instead be forced to build always the 3 kind of colonizers.
For example: the AI already had colonized all of their available rock planets, had a 2 or 3 available Gas planets, but still can colonize 15 Ice Planets. Why build 5 Rock, 5 Gas and 5 Ice, if would be better to build 15 Ice Colony ships?

Anyway, think is a bug that not always will happen, and only occur depending of the map and the AI situation, and think only in simultaneous mode. Also, was reported to MM (and this time he requested to me savefiles), then, hope will be fixed.

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's interesting. In all of my test games (v 1.78 though) the AI only built the Last entry of the avaiable colonizers, completely disregarding the first ones.

[ March 06, 2003, 14:14: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Yes, it is a palliative rather than true solution but untill MM fixes it, we are stuck with it.

It was a pain in a... to work through all AI states in all construction_vehicles files http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's interesting. In all of my test games (v 1.78 though) the AI only built the Last entry of the avaiable colonizers, completely disregarding the first ones.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahhh, that must be a famous accumulative nature of ship type numbers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
If you want to build 1 colony-rock and 1 colony-gas, you must use "must have :=1" for first entry and "must have :=2" for second ship, not "must have :=1" as one might expect. Take a look on my files to see how it works.

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's interesting. In all of my test games (v 1.78 though) the AI only built the Last entry of the avaiable colonizers, completely disregarding the first ones.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahhh, that must be a famous accumulative nature of ship type numbers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
If you want to build 1 colony-rock and 1 colony-gas, you must use "must have :=1" for first entry and "must have :=2" for second ship, not "must have :=1" as one might expect. Take a look on my files to see how it works.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What I used was:
Entry 3 Type := Seeder (Gas)
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 300
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 5
Entry 4 Type := Seeder (Rock)
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 300
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 9
Entry 5 Type := Seeder (Ice)
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 300
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 12

What I experienced was:
Until the first rock colonizer was designed the AI built 5 gas colonizers just as I called for.
From that moment on the AI began to build rock colonizers, only rock colonizers. It followed the call for 9 ships. After the first ice colonizer design was available it began to build only ice colonizers, again following the new call for 12 ships.

If you are interested you can find these (and some more) test results and my conclusions here:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=23;t=007653

Anyway, I will run another test. Maybe something changed from 1.78 to 1.84. I would be very glad to be proven wrong, that the calling for names thing works fine now.

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Hmm, yes, you did everything exactly like I would do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I will do more test and check what is going on.

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oleg,
I don't understand what you are saying, here? Are you saying the Abbidon won't build Colony ships with the way it is currently set below, when a new Researched Colonization type is completed in Proportions 2.53? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

It seems the method you suggest may leave the AI with surplus multiple Colonizers, hence straining their maintenance to a greater degree.

Suggested Oleg Piundon:
~
AI State := Not Connected
Num Queue Entries := 14
Entry 1 Type := Colony (Rock)
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 2 Type := Colony (Gas)
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 180
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Colony (Ice)
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 160
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 3
~
~
Currant Abbidon from Proportions
~
AI State := Not Connected
Num Queue Entries := 23
Entry 11 Type := Colonizer
Entry 11 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 11 Must Have At Least := 0

[ March 06, 2003, 17:23: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Correct me if I am wrong somebody.

The way the suggested settings would be; in the proposed change for Proportion 2.53, will the AI not build any Colony ships, Altogether;
once this condition is meet?

> 4 Colony ships (any type) built, and with less then 16 planets colonized in empire
~
Conditions for Colonizer HALT in production even quicker to obtain if not already reached at the time when AI Switch’s to Not Connected state:
> 3 Colony ships (any type) built, and with less then 16 planets colonized in empire

~~~~~

Suggested Piundon:

AI State := Exploration (all states except: Not Connected)
Entry 5 Type := Colony (Rock)
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Colony (Gas)
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 180
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colony (Ice)
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 160
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 4

[ March 06, 2003, 17:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Yes, there is a big chance Abbidon in your setting will not build ANY rock colonizers if it already has enough unused Gas colonizers at that moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif This is why it is called "dead end colonizer bug"

Yes, my AI will keep some extra colonizers. It is not good, but what can I do ?

I made a test in non-connected game. At the moment AI colonized all rock and gas planets in the system but before it discovered ice, it had two idle colonizers - one rock and one gas. I scraped them both - next turn, AI start to build one rock and one gas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Rexx, I don't know why id did't work in your test. SE is a strange game should I say !

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have no unused settings=0 as you can see! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Unless I am misunderstanding you?

I believe the below Abbidon will continue to build Colonizers, Its been tested and ok, Oleg.
~~
If the Build at Least value is greater than 0 , we check if the Planet Per Item condition is still true. If it is, then we purchase another one, if not, we move to the next queue item. If we do purchase another one, we continue in this loop until the condition is false , or we have purchased the number in Build At Least.
~~
I believe with your suggested setting a (Must Have At Least) condition may halt colonizer production if AI has 3 not needed colonizers in surplus and less then 16 planets. Hence not building a new Colonizer design type.

Abbidon currant settings:
AI State := Not Connected
Num Queue Entries := 23
Entry 11 Type := Colonizer
Entry 11 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 11 Must Have At Least := 0

[ March 06, 2003, 20:32: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Oleg,
Is it possible that the Colonizer bug you are referring to has already been resolved?

Version 1.62:
1. Fixed - The AI was not purchasing colonizing ships

Version 1.61:
1. Changed - The Default_Ai_Construction_Vehicles.txt file will now allow
for the design name or the design type. The term "Colonizer" is
till hard-coded to be evaluated to the needed type of colonizer.
When looking for the design to build, the game will look for the
latest design which matches the design name. If no match is found,
then the latest design which matches the design type will be located.
If neither is found, this purchase item will be skipped.

[ March 06, 2003, 20:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

OI think I fixed "ai colony ship bug" by replacing "colonizer" with explicit design names. In my testss, AI build all 3 types of colony ships and colonize everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

1046954324.zip

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

It is still not fully solved. I think it works as intended if you use "must have = 0" but nit in other situations. I checked how your file works and it looks great ! I am going to redo all "non-connected" states in my AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thank you very much ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Sorry, I don't get it. Why should setting Must have at least to "0" help avoiding a colonizer dead end?

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because there are no "unused" colony ships in reserve. Nothing yo impede construction of different colony ships upon request http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Don't think it will work in "open" state. There are always planets to colonize and AI can easily saturate "planet per item" and get to the same sorry state but I'm not sure.

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's exactly what I guessed. Sooner or later the Planets per item condition is fulfilled with unusable colonizers and I get stuck again in this damned dead end.
Will run my tests in connected games during the weekend, maybe I can come up with something.

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

I recommend you also look at Infrastructure State for Colonizers in regards to PPI.

This is where AI Defaults too; coming out of the Not Connected State !!!
~
I believe the Proposed setting of 160 to 200 PPI; For Infrastructure currently suggested for Colonizers may be high there as well, and may be problematic…

[ March 07, 2003, 17:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did some tests (turn based, med/large quadrant, connected standard game, low bonus, AI as computer player)
I used
Entry 3 Type := Seeder (Gas)
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 300
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 5
Entry 4 Type := Seeder (Rock)
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 300
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 9
Entry 5 Type := Seeder (Ice)
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 300
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 12

In all tests my old statement "the AI only follows the Last (available) entry/name for a certain design type and the according must have number" was proven wrong!!!!

Until rock colonizing tech was discovered the AI build the 5 gas colonizers. After the first rock colonizers had been designed it immediately began to build them. NO DEAD END. At first it built 4 of them but when a slot got free the AI used it for a rock ship. After all gas colonizers were used up it constructed for lots of turns only 9 rock colonizers. However, at a certain point it switched back to gas colonizers. After checking the map I believe that this "switching back" happened when almost all the so far unused rock planets in the empire were colonized. It seems that the AI realized this fact and began to mix the colonizers to be used for further expansion. It never build the 5 gas ships I call for but mostly 1 or 2. However, once when two systems full of gas giants were discovered the AI did something quite intelligent: it began to build 8 gas colonizers!!!
Exactly the same happened when ice colonizing tech was discovered. For many many turns only ice colonizers were built to fill up the gaps of so far unused ice planets. Even when there was a large/huge rock planet with a breathable atmosphere available. Such a planet wasn't noticed until those "ice gaps" were filled up. When that was done the "switching back" to rock or gas colonizers happened again.
In all games the AI followed the "must have at least" number of the Last (available) entry but disregarded the other "number calls". Until ice colonizing tech was researched, there were always 9 colonizers available but never 5 gas and 4 rock. After ice colonizing tech was discovered there were 12 colonizers but never 5 gas, 4 rock, 3 ice.
The pattern the AI follows seems to be hardcoded, it overwrites my number calls:
When a new colonizing tech discovered the first thing to be done is filling up the gaps of uncolonized worlds (of this kind) in the empire while disregarding all other colonizable planets. After that fill up older gaps, then expand again and take into account which kinds of planets are available in adjacent systems. That – IMO – is exactly the AI's behaviour when I use a design-file which only calls for "colonizers" and not for names.

Oleg, you were completely right. Using the calling for names thing will avoid colonizer dead ends. Maybe I did something wrong in my tests using v 1.78, maybe something changed in v 1.84. Anyway, colonizer dead ends are avoidable.

After that I ran some tests using Master Belisarius' map and settings for his AI contest (simultaneous game). Again no dead ends but the colony bug he described is still happening.

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Maybe the 1.84 AI has code to build colonizers based on what planets it sees? What happens if you don't specify any builds of colonizers at all? Maybe it'll just build colonizers for the planets it sees... could be a good thing.

PvK

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

Originally posted by PvK:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is this what you are suggesting PvK ?

AI State := Not Connected
Num Queue Entries := 23
Entry 11 Type := Colonizer
Entry 11 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 11 Must Have At Least := 0

[ March 10, 2003, 00:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions AI without AI colony bug :)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It definitly works for "non connected" state where it can colonize all planets it sees. But in open state there are way too many planets I am afraid. Would be nice to test anyway.