|
BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
This is what I found :
OK, I'm testing AI: "human" player with all ministers ON - complete AI control. AI build colony ships, colonizes planets, build population transports, moce population, everythink works like Swiss clocks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm happy. Next, I strat a new game ,"classical" movement. Now this race start as "computer player", I'm playing some other race. Many turns later, say 50, I want to check how AI progress: All colony ships and all(almost) population transports with loaded population sit idle around homeworld !!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Italian strike or something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Completely puzzled I turn ON all ministers - next turn alls hips sail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Swith back to AI, come back few turns later - they wrnt to strike again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Reason - "can not load cargo" Apparently AI tries to load population on already loaded ships, fail and ships stay idle. Crazy. Completely crazy. But there is no such problem when I am watching . Another test : same setup but "simultanious" movement - everything works ! No problem with computer players ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Obviously, there is a AI bug in "classical" movement. Possible fix: Play simultaneous http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif All PBM games are obviously do not have this problem If you want to play classic - time after time take over computer players and clean up the mess by playing 1-2 turns with ministers "on" before swithing back. Tedious and impractical, I know. Another solution : why AI tries to laod population twice in first place ?? My answer - "cargo storage" for supply bays. As a result colony ship/pop. transport has cargo capacity like 1008. AI loads 1M people, it becomes 1000/1008. Now it tries to fill that tiny space and fails. Why it affects only classical turn games - I do not know. Now, PvK, please remove this offending cargo storage from supply bays ! I did't like it in the first place. Sounds like another exploit that AI can not use. If PvK decides to keep it this way, my advice for anybody who plays solo games with classical movement - edit components.txt file by yourself if you want to see a normally functining AI. P.S> Sometimes AI can clean this "can not load cargo" problem by itself and resume working. But it is usually only temporary. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
I'm playing a Proportions game right now with non-simultaneous. I started it under 2.5.1 and have upgraded it with each new download.
The AIs have all expanded like mad since the beginning. The Druks have managed to get multiple colonies with populations in excess of 2000 million! |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Ah, this explains everything. I have seen this message with my pop fleets also, but since the pop has been loaded I always just have sent them to the next place. I have not take into consideration the AI could have a problem with it.
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
But usually it doesn't necessarily mean a problem, although it looks like the contrary in your tests. I recall the old "cannot colonize because I am cloaked" problem in the cases you switch a comp player to human control, which does not happen in case of the AI does not feel to be watched http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
The cargo ability is a similar (transporter) issue I guess like the SY components -> resupply transporters. Have you done a similar test already without cargo ability? [ March 06, 2003, 13:45: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
My latest observations were in non-connect game. It is possible that in "normal" game AI is more flexible, changing ship orders more often.
Sometimes it is not a problem but I witnessed a total AI break down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Another puzzle : It happens only after Ai discovers ion engine III http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I ship ships have ion engines I or II, they buzz happily around, but once get refitted with IO-III - strike http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Go figure ! |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
I thought the Cargo Storage ability still worked with Value 1 of zero. The intent was to allow supply tankers to use transport hulls, wasn't it?
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
(At := zero) It makes for a much neater and organized look, when transferring cargo. Has work fine in my tests, but I will certainly retest it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For example fighters to a carrier in a large mixed fleet... Check it out…. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif This was a suggestion from SJ. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ March 06, 2003, 16:27: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Damn, setting "cargo storage = 0" does not cure the problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif AI is still trying to load population to 100% full ship ! What is going on ?
Fortunately, it seems to be a very severe problem only in Non-connected game. In "normal" settings AI somehow manages to struggle through this bug/ So, if you are planning a Non-connected game, be sure to use simultaneous movements ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
I hate simultaneous for solo proportion games, because of its own glitches- things like you need at least speed 2 to use EP pods, ships are searching their own ways and god knows what else. In some cases I would like to decide if tactical or strategic combat, I mean try to capture a home planet after 100 years in strategic and you know what I mean. In some cases after just 25 years it has taken about 2 years blockading and loosing one fleet after the other even in tactical combat. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
oleg, I can not quite confirm your observations. In my 65 year simulation, I have turned AI ministers to on, animate ship movement to on and I can see the AI transporters cycling without problems. The "cannot load any more cargo" indeed comes up, but just with some of the transporters which are filled with SATELLITES ! E.g. Nostropholo, they seem to put everylittle thing into sat production, home planet has more than 800 sats in stock, 100 in orbit. 3 Transporters stuck in homeplanets orbit because each of them contains 1 sat, 80kt/1008kt. The other transporters without sats in cargo do their jobs.
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
BTW, I strongly recomend my latest idea about solving the problem with satelites in cargo and, more importantly, immensly improved how AI handles population with latest 1.84 patch:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=007969;p=1 and download this: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1045337937.ZIP PvK does not like it since now you can move population on smaller ships, but AI works great ! (warning - it will ruin the existing Proportions games, be carefull ! ) |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Now I have seen the same thing even with watching AI with all ministers "on". Soul Hunters designs have stuck in orbit with the http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif message.
But it appears there are some more weird things going on with "no WP connected" even with simultaneous. I am going to continue in the... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=008345;p=1 |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
So, anybody has any idea how to fix this ? It really hurts AI. Sometimes I can see AI completely stop expanding, all its colony ships and population transports full with people hanging around homeworld. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
I seriously consider to play simultaneos turns only ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
I wonder if this is the same issue with the AIcampaign idea to put the population cargo ability to the ship hulls of the starliners. Maybe the behaviour is different then?
The problem seems to be the 1kt cargo ability of the supply cargos, which is necessary for supply transporters. What if this would be removed from the supply cargo and we search for another compensation. Probably an additional transporter hull with supply tank abilities tied to the hull? I am not sure if that is even possible. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
No, I check it and it does not help http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Now I have ships with 1000/1000 cargo still sitting in orbit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
The AI Player, does not use Star Liner, Hulls in AI Campaign... The AI player uses Small Transports and work fine for Population transport... I am not aware there was a Transport issue Proportions 2.53. Have, you seen a Issue with Pop transport in AI Campaign? Or are you just razzing me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Oleg,
Prior to v1.84 the Pop Transports would station over HW, until it had a Breathable colony to transport. True, I believe now Pop Transports go from nearest Colony then out . If you want to send me the Proportions save game, I will take a look at it. As well. Note: any changes in the Proportion 2.53 Data files will also have to be sent. I am sure I can help. With a answer and fix, as it applies to your Proportions issue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif John http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ March 13, 2003, 19:38: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
I'll send the example when I come home. But you can simply start a new proportions game, turn-based movements, several AI players. After about turn 40-50, switch to a computer player and you will see the problem. If somehow everything is all right, try another AI player. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. Races with my AI are more exampliary because they build more transports. But I saw this weird behaivor with Abbidon and CueCappa.
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
If the 1000kT per pop unit is the main root cause, and it looks like this, if I understand oleg's post correctly:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=007969;p=1 ... Can there even be another workaround than to reduce the population weights again? I don't think so. To compensate this (e.g. if we say 10kt per pop unit) one would need to multiply the planet production modifiers as well as the planet population itself by 100 or 1000 in case of 1kt per pop unit. But I guess I am fantasizing again... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif EDIT: Impossible, but it would be nice if we could setup population max numbers by planet sizes to a lot higher values... [ March 13, 2003, 15:40: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
It works really great and helps AI a lot but still does not eliminate "can not load cargo" problem. Here is again the link to my modified files: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1045337937.ZIP Description of what I did :http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...=007969#000000 Oh, sorry, I just noticed you suggest to change population mass even more ! Somehow I think it is not related to population mass. I am curios, did anybody noticed this problem in unmoded SE ???? [ March 13, 2003, 15:41: Message edited by: oleg ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
What I was talking about is (impossible at the moment), change pop mass back to 1kT (if it does not have the same problems or probably just a postpone of problems) and instead of this: Let the planets start with 2,000,000 (medium) and multiply the pop modifiers by 1000. But this is hardcoded AFAIK, so it would be more a kind of requested feature. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
EDIT: I think it best I distence my self from Proportions, at this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Besides PTF, seems to be on track http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ March 13, 2003, 23:26: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1045337937.ZIP It has backup files, but just in case, copy Proportions data files before installing my stuff. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
1) I have not seen the AI problems with transports, well not yet. I have performed a quick AIcampaign test and saw the issue immediately "cannot load cargo..." and the transporters stuck in orbit 2) I have tested my idea below with 2,000,000 population at medium planets, original pop mass, pop modifier of settings.txt multiplied by 1,000. It works ! Even with the biggest number of the original settings.txt: Pop Modifier 12 Population Amount := 2000000000 Pop Modifier 12 Production Modifier Percent := 200 Pop Modifier 12 SY Rate Modifier Percent := 200 Is there anything I have missed about it? Why has PvK not used this way instead of setting the pop mass to 1,000kT? Maybe a max. number problem with sphere worlds? |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
OK, here is a test save game:
1047582963.ZIP You play as Xiati. Take over all AI and you will see the problem with Drushocka, praetorian, xi'chung, pequeninos. Reload the save game file, play for some number of turs, switch AI to you - same transports are still on orbit with AI swearing ! If you play longer, you can see the same problem with colony ships. And that's even worse problem !! N.B. the game uses my data files I mentioned here before, Pequeninos AI is slightly modified as well. [ March 13, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: oleg ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
1) I have not seen the AI problems with transports, well not yet. I have performed a quick AIcampaign test and saw the issue immediately "cannot load cargo..." and the transporters stuck in orbit 2) I have tested my idea below with 2,000,000 population at medium planets, original pop mass, pop modifier of settings.txt multiplied by 1,000. It works ! Even with the biggest number of the original settings.txt: Pop Modifier 12 Population Amount := 2000000000 Pop Modifier 12 Production Modifier Percent := 200 Pop Modifier 12 SY Rate Modifier Percent := 200 Is there anything I have missed about it? Why has PvK not used this way instead of setting the pop mass to 1,000kT? Maybe a max. number problem with sphere worlds?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks ! You see, it is a BIG problem for AI. One reason PvK used current Proportion' settings is because this f... problem was not known. He wants population to be a special cargo, which requires special components, like starliner modules. Ans I totally agree with him. If only SE was not SO buggy even two years after release... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
But I still not get the point about starliners and such. What's the difference? You would have to carry 200 pop units instead of 1. This can be handled with starliners also and if you take every pop modifier x 200, and change things like clone centers accordingly it would make no difference to the current gameplay. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
I agree with the bug. But it could be an improvement in some cases, e.g. finetuning of pop modifiers and such. I am going to give it a try and turn PvK's work "upside down", I am just curious how this would change gameplay and feel.
At least it would help the AI as we know yet... until it get's fixed. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
I think MM is still interested in important bugs in SE4. When he might release another patch though, I don't know. Do we think this is a new one from 1.84? Have we seen it in the unmodded game as well?
PvK |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
I don't think the topic one is new from 1.84, although I haven't tested yet. It looks like a problem just with heavy weight cargo involved, which should be no problem in the unmodded game unless the AI would not try to transport lots of weapon platforms or somesuch. We have not yet seen it in the unmodded game. I am going to change the pop weight back to 5kT, with an according change to all of the pop modifiers and planet size entries (x200). It will take a while... I expect the AI would work better with this workaround, but let's see... |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
PvK, I need some hints:
How to modify the following, in case of 200 pop units now would reflect 1 in proportions 2.5.3.1: Population Defender Attack Strength := 3 Population Defender Hit Points := 100 Damage Points To Kill One Population := 200 And, because I think the scores would go up with 200 times the old populations: AI Uses Mega Evil Empire := True AI Mega Evil Empire Threshold Score Thousands := 600 AI Human Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 400 AI Computer Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 500 Maximum Population For Abandon Planet Order := 50 Can I modify... Reproduction Check Frequency := 10 ... back to 1 and use 1/10th of the according pop grow factors (facilities and such). I doubt, because of 1% min., right? But would be nice. Has anybody tried to change this one to "true" already, and does it work?: Simultaneous Games Show Strategic Combat := False |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Do NOT change "population growth check" ! It should stay the same as in normal Proportions. Not sure about other parameters. Ans do not forget to change Replicant centers in facility.txt or they will become a joke http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif !
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Setup is finally done, first investigations:
No AI transport problems so far, but it could be that it just occurs less often. Probably it is even a kind of calculation/rounding problem with the cargo values . The unmodded game has always round numbers from 150/200/250 components, this is different from proportions (e.g. 1004kT). Cosmetic problem with this setup: The population bar next to the planet is calculated by the old numbers, I mean 1000M/400B displays a full population bar. Possible issue: How does the AI really handle this, I mean, does it "consider" things like a 3750M/400B planet could be filled, don't send more transports and such. Need some more experience with this setup. If somebody has got any ideas how to check the possible issues with any modifications to accelerate it - post it, please. [ March 14, 2003, 18:29: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ] |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
If you want the same toughness of population, you'll need to divide both by the number you multiplied population by, which for 200 is impossible. Set both to 1 for the closest results. Militia will be twice as tough and have about 67 times as much firepower as before. That's probably not disastrous, though. Quote:
Same deal. Set to 1 for same toughness of population and facilities versus bombardments. Quote:
Not the whole scores, just the effect of population on scores, which isn't so big a deal. I wouldn't change this, at least until a clear effect was observed. Quote:
Multiply by 200. Quote:
You can, but it will bring back the unmodded population growth rate (except with less effect from the minimum growth). So, I would say you shouldn't, unless you want that. Quote:
PvK |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
BTW, I asked oleg to do a test Last week of just increasing population capacities and effects by 10, and he said this seemed to work ok. 10 has the advantage over 200 that it keeps the numbers reasonable if read literally (that is, 40 billion is a reasonable homeworld population limit - 800 billion seems kind of extreme, as does 2 billion to get normal colony production).
I don't remember if oleg said this (x10) was solving this particular AI bug or not, though. oleg? PvK |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
No, it did not solve AI problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
It would be nice if you find the highest population mass after which AI becomes stagnant. Really helpfull ! |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
All right, this is what I have observed unfortunately, but probably it helps a bit.
Reproduction Check Frequency := 10000, to investigate the real transport issue without influence of reproduction. WPs not connected, to keep the observation area small. Krill population transporter can carry 211 Krill colonizer can carry 202 All planets of the isolated system are colonized. I do NOT see the "cannot load cargo" message anymore, but the transporters do not leave homeplanet anymore if the colony levels reach 500 obviously: 4 Colonies have got 624 M (which is from 1 colonizer + 2 transporters) 1 Colony has got 835M (1 colonizer + 3 transporters) I just can see the loaded transporters remaining at the homeplanet. They are "flashing" (I have set animation to ON) at the beginning of each turn, but they don't move anymore. You are right with the 500M stagnation, oleg. This one is hardcoded, right? |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Read the SE4 Modding 101 tutorial. It will tell you what all of those settings do.
Each shot on the planet kills 1 pop unit, regardless of what Damage Points To Kill One Population := 200 is set to. Set it to 10000, and every shot on the planet kills 1 pop unit, even if the weapon only does 1 damage. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
PvK |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
To change pop growth check I would need 0.1 % steps anyway. If 1 pop unit is multiplied by 200 it just would better reflect the "real" population development (if SE4.exe computes 3 decimal places?), I think. But most likely I will not change pop growth check. |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Ok, I just ran some tests to confirm and I guess I mis-remembered. I thought I had seen that it was fixed, but I guess not. Yes, it looks like one shot will always kill at least one pop unit - the damage gets rounded up to the pop damage value, once all units are destroyed. Sigh... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
PvK |
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
Re: BIG AI problem in Proportion games with "classical" movement :( :(
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:13 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.