What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I've owned SEIV for a while, and I've rarely felt like there was a whole lot of micromanaging involved. The two situations where I've been overwhelmed were when I was just trying to learn the game, and whenever I take over for a player on PBW who happens to have a fair sized empire.

Recently SEIV seems to be getting quite a bit of attention, and I've heard people repeatedly make the claim that SEIV is micromanagement hell. Yet my experience seems to be rather different, so I decided I should start this poll to figure out where I stand.

Additional questions listed below.
1) Does SEIV involve a lot of micromanaging?
2) Does SEIV feel like there's a lot of micromanaging involved?
3) Does anybody happen to know of a computer game that involves more micromanaging than SEIV?

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1. Yes to some degree, but it is well balanced.
2. Depends upon the player. I do not believe so.
3. BOTF - Rebellion - Stars

I think the people who never really played the game are simply repeating reviews they have read whereas the reviewer only played the demo for an hour or so and had stated that it was a "spread sheet" micro-managment game from hell. The real game reviewers, the people who know and play 4 X games, rated SEIV very highly and consider the micromanagment level of the game to be well balanced. I agree.

What I have discovered is that people who started playing Moo, then Moo2 and the Civ games have a certain expectation of "Automated Managment" and are fearful of having to think about doing things. One person posted at the Moo3 forum that the game was so full of micromanagment that the carries did not "automatically" replenish there fighters after combat. Nor did the game automatically build fighters to fill the carriers. The fact that he had to do this automatically seemed like micromanagment from hell to him. I find this level of player involvement draws the player into the game, and gives the game a more real feel. I like the idea that I need to think about such things as ensuring that my carriers and ships are stocked and in good operation. Then again, I can easily assign a Minister to do that for me if I did not want to worry about it, but what fun would that be?

In an earily game, you want to have control, it is why you play these types of games.

I have played a micromanagment game from hell and it was named Birth Of The Federation. I have played the latest game, Masters Of Orion III, which is on the other end of the spectrum.

In all I have played just about all of the 4x games out with the noteable exception of SE III, and in all of those games, I found SEIV to be the most balanced when it came to Micromanagment.

I do not agree that the game is bogged down by micromanagment, and would argue that fact to any one who believes so.

[ March 07, 2003, 11:17: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I am a big fan of the Civilization series of games. (I will include Alpha Centauri) in that mix. In the original Civ played under DOS, I don't remember there being any sort of queue. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In that game, you could eventually end up with dozens and dozens of cities, and you would have to tell them what to buld each and every time they finished building something. To me, that is micromanagement hell. Don't get me wrong. I loved that game. But it *was* quite tedious after a while.

Was it Civ II that first introduced build queues? I think build queues are awesome. Now, you can plan out the next 'x' number of things you are going to build. This way, you still have all the control you desire but don't have to, in my mind, micro manage the "heck" out of the game.

Wasn't it Civ II that also introduced the ability to set your city on different tracks? That also was a neat feature. I must admit that I never used it because I preferred to specify what each city was building. Now, if I could have had the ability to specify what buildings in what order were build by each "minister", I would have loved that. Well... they added that in a later patch. You could edit a text file and determine what to build and when. I never used that but I applaud them for adding in.

Now, let's fast forward to MOO3. There are MANY, MANY buildings that you absolutely cannot build yourself. Speaking in SEIV terminology, each planet has a specific number of facility slots. In MOO3, there are a number of facility-enhancing buildings that can be stacked on top of those facility slots. In MOO3, you have no control over when and how those are built--even through the use of the empire-wide, macro-management development plans. To me, this is WAY too little control.

Through the use of Development plans implemented at the empire level, you *can* specify what "facilities" to build on a planet. That is a neat sort of feature that *might* be nice for a game such as SEV.

Another example of over "macro"-izing the game is how it allocates resources to new planets. In SEIV, when you start a new planet, population doesn't affect the initial production rate like it always has in the Master of Orion series of games. In MOO1 and MOO2, you could move population from your "average" worlds to your best, high mineral production worlds. But in MOO3, there just doesn't seem to be any way to do that.

Because MOO3 requires "money" to build anything, a new colony cannot do any building without a substantial amount

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That pretty much describes how I do things except I still double check. I start with the log then go through each and every system, first ships and units, then planets. 90% of the time, that's all it is, a check, a reassurance. But sometimes I'll see that I'm still building that old satellite and change it to the new model or put a hold on that monolith 2 because monoliths 3 will be available next turn.
After the systems review, I check each screen: planets, colonies, ships, construction, empire status, research, the log again (for diplomatic responses) and finally the other empires. Amazing how often that check through the screens catches something I missed earlier. I know my thoroughness would drive most of you bonkers, but I love it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Kim

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Hmmm 1st post did not post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I do not have a problem with running it untill late in game then I still "micromanage" it the AI is for a lack of other words dumb and makes silly moves so I will keep going this way and enjoying the game, I have used the ministers a few time to try them and will run the normal way one turn at a time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Must be me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I love micromanagement of SEIV. I wouldn't have it any other way. I wouldn't mind if there was more actually. But right now it is a good level and balanced ver well.
Oh and ministers suck! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey and what happened to my post?? Also based on a quote it looks like StoneMill posted here and I don't see his post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I think the 'tolerance level' of anyone for micromanagement will be the point where they can't remember what they are doing in various places all over the empire and start to forget/lose track of things. This is different for different people.

Some changes/additions to the SE IV interface would make management of your empire easier. More ways to select Groups of colonies and issue orders to them. More 'divisions of labor' in the ministers so you can hand smaller tasks over to them. I'd really like to let the AI scan for intruders in my systems and send warnings to leave. But I have to turn on the Politics minister to do that, and that also agrees or breaks treaties! I can't let the AI run my foreign relations, so I can't get any help in watching the borders. Bummer. Seperate ministers for these things would be very nice. Similarly, I'd like the AI mines/satellites minister to maintain mine fields or sat Groups that I create, but NOT create new ones. Not available, so I have to leave the minister off to keep it from wasting mines and sats in places I don't want them used. Hmm. Nicest of all would be in the AI defense minister could be told to keep a fleet to a specific 'area' of action. To defend only certain systems, in other words. Instead the AI will go running all over the place once you give it control of a ship or fleet. Being able to tell a specific fleet to 'stay in this system, defend only THESE systems' would be a big help.

[ March 07, 2003, 19:14: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I think the current is not bad, but could use a few refinements to improve it, like most have suggested already.

I think it would be interesting if resources were consumed on a system-per-system level, i.e., whatever you build in that system comes from resources in that system. You could then have transports and stuff, but that might get a little too much work in a large empire unless it was automated...

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I like the micromanagement. I don't want any games that (as said in another post) "you click 'end turn' until you've won" or something like that.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif In fact, it makes great gameplay (IMO) when I miss something on my Last turn and it takes me a few turns to adapt (forget to restock carriers, etc) - makes it more realistic.

Yeah, end game turns take a while, but thats why I bought the game and takes up +90% of my gaming time....

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Hey DavidG- you are right! My post is gone!?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Moderator- I'm sorry if I did something wrong, please let me know? I did not mean to offend anyone.
Maybe because I used the word h*ll? You know, the hot place? Was not aware this was forbidden?!?

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Stone Mill, Do not worry. I do not believe Moderators deleted your post. It must be some message board glitch. Not long time ago we lost one mongth of posting in one thread ("unexplained misteries..."). There are strange things happening in cyberspace.

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Thanks, oleg. Strange days, indeed. Most peculiar, momma. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I think it's a matter of personal taste and interest what each player considers to be "mircomanagement", and what is instead "gameplay"!

If you're willing to use ministers, SE4 can involve only certain kinds of management, or even none at all. It's too bad the ministers aren't a bit more sophisticated and controllable.

SE4 can get to be overwhelming when you have a really large empire, though, and there are definite advantages to managing details. It can take hours of management each turn to get a large empire to the point where there are no more orders which could clearly be useful. On the other hand, especially if you queue orders in advance, use repeat orders, etc, you can also often do OK just mostly coasting. So, it depends on how much of a perfectionist you are, too. Do you really need to have everyone occupied at all times? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I suggest that all the forum Moderators change their login passwords, just to be safe.

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you do that with the Patrol order? (I've never used it in SE IV myself, so I don't know.)

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Hmmm... 5 god-like micromanagers *wonders who they might be*

So far I've only seen one person who says they double or tripple check their planets, ships, etc. Is this kind of behavior rare, 'cause I find myself double and tripple checking from turn 1... Thank goodness for PBW. I don't have to feel guilty for making players wait 30 minutes before I finish a turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I just took a look at some BOTF reviews, and I must say I'm suprised I missed this little jewel back when it came out. I am so tempted to shell out some cash for this puppy. But Galciv is coming out... Argh.

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

BOTF should hardly cost any money nowadays. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Most people do not double and triple check their build queues every turn, as there is no real benefit to doing so. Why check to make sure that the ships you ordered to be built Last turn are now on 4 tuns left instead of 5? Seems like a huge waste of time to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I personally have it set to display the number of facilities, and only check the planets that have empty slots, and nothing in the queue. I use the multi-add feature to add as many ships as I need in much less time than adding them one by one. Other than that, checking all the other queues every turn is a waste of time IMO. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Why constantly second-guess yourself? How often do you change your mind and remove partially built items from the queues and replace them with different items? That is a big waste of time (both real and game) and resources.

Now research should be checked every turn, as you normally get a tech or two each turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Same with Intel queues if you are in a game that uses that horribly broken system.

[ March 08, 2003, 00:02: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

It can in the beginning seem like alot of micromanagement if you have a lot of planets and build facilities one at a time and then decides on what to build next(!)
What people tend to forget is that when the planets has built their facilities the micromanagement is mostly done there.
True, when new tech becomes availible you might need to scrap a few facilities and add new to the que, but these occasions are rare in the course of a long game.

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

I find SEIV to have less micromanagement than my previous favorite: Moo2. I still shudder when I remember how boring it was to move newly born farmers to scientist or builders. Every turn dozens of planet screens pop-up telling about finished construction, etc.

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This QUOTE sums up my view, as well....

I believe SMAC to be a Very popular game, certainly one of my Favorites and that had a lot of Micromanagement; possibly even much more at times.

[ March 07, 2003, 12:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

The fact that BOTF is cheap is part of the problem. It's hard to justify purchasing a game when the postage will be equal to or greater than the cost of the game itself...

You're right. I rarely change what I've done, but then again I guess I must be mildly obsessive-compulsive... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

»What's your micromanagement tolerance level?.
I have se4gold for a year now. My tolerance is superior, I can handle it. But when i have over 40+ worlds green astricks,3 enemy empires,200 ships in a 200 solar systems.Then i start to need Ice on my head. I used ministers,Which work in a sorry way for me. I tried?, I DIED!. Hopefully this will be address to MM in a patch, which somebody can list its faults.

Additional questions listed below.
1) Does SEIV involve a lot of micromanaging?
2) Does SEIV feel like there's a lot of micromanaging involved?
3) Does anybody happen to know of a computer game that involves more micromanaging than SEIV?

Answers;
1) Only to Very later progress in the game.theory above.
2) Depends upon the player.But I dont believe so.
3) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif STARS is a runner up. BOTF is ABSOULUTY NOT.

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

What's BTOF?

Before The Old Festament?
Buying T-shirts Of Freakenstein?
Balls To Olpha Fentaury?
Backing Tamy On Four?
Beer Trampy Ozzy Fest?

Re: What\'s your micromanagement tolerance level?
 

Aloofi; BOTF is called( Birth of the Federation), made by Micropose i think.The game combat is real time,but the game is very very limited compared to SE4 gold.There is a demo out there.Can be also found Online site at, Eb world electronic boutique / or Gamestop homepage.