Broken Intel?
 

In the Are You Tough Enough to be the King of the Hill thread, Fyron had this to say:
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There are a few things that are horribly horribly broken in SE4 (such as intel)...
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And in the same thread Geoschmo said:
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Well, I don't want to turn this into a thread about the plusses or minuses of intel. The problems with the system are well documented.
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Plus and minuses of intel, well documented? I can't seem to find it. Just bits and snippets here and there.

Anyways, can anyone give me an idea of what is wrong with intel? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Broken Intel?
 

The main problem with Intel is that its far easier to defend than it is easy to attack.
With Counter Intel II you only have to defend with half the points your opponent is using to attack. If you have enough resources to overwhelm the enemy with Intel you could most likely overwhelm them with ships.

Askan

Re: Broken Intel?
 

I'd rather like to know myself.
Sofar all I've seen is opinions wheter it's a good system or not.
I rather like it but still it can be improved.
Like spies that can be trained for different tasks.

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point! And at Counter-Intel III (unmodified racial characteristic set at 100%)it is worse at 3.6 times protection.

But is that what Fyron means when he claims it is broke?

I am wondering if he is referring to something more fundamental?

Re: Broken Intel?
 

I think Fyron mostly don't like the fact that it's all or nothing. If you can get through their intel defense then you will always succeed in your action against the other empire. Whereas if you don't, well then of course it fails.
I'm sure there are other reasons why he don't like the intel system. But that's just one I know he doesn't like. Which for that matter, I don't like it either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Given the effectiveness of some of the intel attacks, this is probably a good thing. When I think of intel being "broken" its because of a few overpowered, undercosted attacks:

- Crew Insurrection (steals a ship for 50k)
- Resource Procurement (steals 10k of each resource for 15k)
- Food Contamination (kills 100M population for 15k)
- Comm Mimic (makes one empire declare war on another for 20k

To me, it is another part of the game that needs to be balanced by MM, or modded, to really shine. As it is now, Intel is something experienced players use to torment less experienced players (or Fyron, who refuses to build enough counterintel out of moral obligation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

-spoon

[ March 07, 2003, 17:48: Message edited by: spoon ]

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fyron deliberately limits his counter-intel production and thereby increases the probability of a successful Intel attack?

Re: Broken Intel?
 

I found out one can breach the intel defences by timing several attacks to get done at the same time. I had 2 subvert ship attacks that were almost ready to go. I added 3 ship bombs in front of them. All 5 went off together. The 3 ship bombs were stopped but the 2 subvert ships succeded.
In reference to all of the Micro management threads. This is a little MM I am willing to put up with.

Re: Broken Intel?
 

hehehehe, think Fyron hate Intel after a PBW game with Star Trek races that we played! hehehehe
I was playing the Ferengi, and to make profit (I needed an excuse to attack someobdy), did a Com Mimmic between the Romulans (Fyron) and the Federation! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Everybody believed that was a cheat or a game bug! The game was halted and Geo was requested to see the savegames and find the problem! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
When knew it, I was unable to stop laugh after several minutes... and remember it now, can't avoid to smile while I'm writing this words! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Broken Intel?
 

YEp THE COMM MIMIC is the single most powerful intel tool going.

Re: Broken Intel?
 

I pulled a combined Intel attack combining 6 food poisonings, 2 Ship Converts, 2 Cargo Bombs and 2 Resource Thefts into one turn. He didn't like that. I think I made him mad. LOL.

There's nothing "wrong" with Intel, that I'm aware of. Most of the attacks are easy to avert, if you're prepared for them. I don't think he was.

Most players make the mistake of completely handicapping their Intel scores, in their race design. That doesn't help!

--Ed

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Master Belisarius, I can just feel you chortling away in the corner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It got me to wondering what is so powerful about the com mimic.

A couple of e-mails would normally clear up the situation and no harm done.

Then it hit me, it replaces the T & R Alliance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Loss of 20% production would be huge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was only because there was no message received by either of us. Comm Mimics are supposed to give a "We Declare War" message to at least one party involved. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with it. I hated the intel system long before that game ever started. It was indeed pretty funny, and I only ever suspected some sort of bug, and there was a bug, cause we got no Messages about war declaration. We went from Partnership to War with 0 notification one turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A huge problem with intel is that there is no way to defend yourself at all if you have not researched Intelligence and made a lot of Intel facilities. This is implying that a HW, which has been in development for millennia, has absolutely no covert operations capabilities, which is absurd. Every planet that has life developed on it will be highly factionalizedm and these factions would have plenty of experience with Intelligence against each other (this exists on Earth). Some of that intelligence would be transferable to defense against alien covert ops. Of course, you can argue that having no defense is a result of poor strategic planning and all that, which is fine for large-scale defense. But, you should have the capability to defend yourself from minor intel attacks without having the Intelligence tech. You already get to perform Counter Intelligence I projects, afterall. Against everything else, you can at least make some defense without having a specific tech researched (even against Stellar Manipulations: attack and destroy their ship). But Intel is completely different than the rest of the game, and has no possibility of defense (except for the token intel you can get from Partners that generate Intel points, but that is a rare occurence to have that and no Intel of your own) without having the Intelligence tech.

Another huge problem is that if your intel attacks get through their defenses, they succeed, with no randomness as to effect or chance of success (other than possibly a random target). Well, except for PPP, but that has a hard-coded 50%, which does not even come close to compensating for the rest of the missions. Also, CI has no chance of failure if you have enough points in it. None of these (nor anything else) should have a 100% chance of success.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, had I researched intel and made intel facilities before hand, your attacks would not have been as successful in getting through. CI is much easier to perform than intel attacks, because there are a lot of bonuses to it (built in 20% bonus, and the multipliers for the level of CI project). Going on the assumption that my score is 50%, that still gives me enough points to mount effective defense. 50% Cunning (assuming that is what I have in that game) is by no means a mistake.

[ March 07, 2003, 21:00: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Broken Intel?
 

Hi Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think your post basically says it all.

You have probably considered this, but the way I look at intel is that it is just another way of waging war.

I agree with you that it is not 100% in tune with the real world in the sense that it is completely realistic.

But in the real world, intel can cause a rigime change and thereby effectively remove one of the parties from the game.

IIRC, the Germans harboured Lenin. When WWII started (or maybe before), they helped to smuggle him back into Russia.

He was a major participant in the 1917 revolution and with the rigime change, a new treaty was forged with Germany in which Russia's status changed from enemy to neutral/friend, thereby allowing Germany to transfer the majority of its forces to the western front.

In a sense, Lenin could be said to be a effective spy.

So, one could argue, that Germany won the war with Russia by removing Russia from the playing field by undermining the Czarist government.

I would think it was cheaper for Germany to remove Russia through insurrection than to continue to expend material and human resources in battles with Russia throughout 1917 and 1918.

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Communications Mimic: A Play in One Act

From within his bunker, Hitler picks up the phone, dials:
Hitler: Hello? America? This is England. We declare war on you.
Roosevelt: Churchill? Is that really you?
Hitler: Yes, we declare war on you!
Roosevelt: Your cities shall burn with our vengeful fire!
Hitler: giggles

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not as the system stands now. If it was not so broken, then it would be another way to wage war. But as it is, it is a way to either slaughter the enemy with no chance of reprisal (on the intel front), or it is a way to waste a lot of facility slots on both sides with nothing happening.

Re: Broken Intel?
 

Spoon, you just knocked me for a loop!
ROFL! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Yes, that was friggin' hilarious my friend. I laughed a solid 2 minutes from that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Broken Intel?
 

Technically, Lenin was not a German spy but a sabateur. You are right, Germany poured a lot of money into Bolshevic party. If only they knew... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Spoon - that was brilliant !

[ March 09, 2003, 02:14: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: Broken Intel?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Communications Mimic: A Play in One Act

From within his bunker, Hitler picks up the phone, dials:
Hitler: Hello? America? This is England. We declare war on you.
Roosevelt: Churchill? Is that really you?
Hitler: Yes, we declare war on you!
Roosevelt: Your cities shall burn with our vengeful fire!
Hitler: giggles</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*LOL*