Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

OK, I got this idea while thinking about a recent "Capture the Flag" thread, but my search for the thread, to give credit to the originator, came up with a thread from 2001, and I know that isn't it.

Anyway, I came up with this idea.

I created a map (click here to view), and a mod, {EEK, OH NO, not another mod???}, yes, a mod. The mod allows the Game Master to build a ship with indestructable components (so it cannot be destroyed) and place it in the center of the "spider web grid". All players (max of 8) start at the outside edge of the map and have view of all sytems and omnipresent view, so you can always see what everyone else is doing. The object of the game is to capture the tug, through intel, ship capture, or allegiance subverter, and get it back to your home planet. The first one do to so, wins!!

Special rules will be as follows;
1)You cannot take the Game Master racial trait (for obvious reasons - I needed this trait to enable what needed to be done at game startup)
2)You cannot attack or intel another players home planet (entering there home system will be extremely risky because there is only one WP to defend and it should be well defended)
3)All's fair out on the grid

The normal settings;
Starting resources: 20000
Starting planets: 1
Home planet value: Good
Score display: all
Technology level: Low
Racial points: 2000
Quadrant type: Custom
Quadrant size: Custom
Event frequency: None
Event severity: N/A
Technology cost: Medium
Victory conditions: Tug reaches home planet
Maximum units: 2000
Maximum ships: 300
Computer players: None
Computer difficulty: N/A
Computer player bonus: N/A
Neutral empires: No
Other game settings: The mod takes Stellar Manipulation away from the player and adds a couple of special components and facilities exclusive to the Game Master (which is why this racial trait is Banned) One of the indestructible components is the bridge which has a mineral cost of 80,000 so when the "tug" is in your posession, you will have to pay the maintenance cost (btw, also 10,000 orgs and 50,000 rads). The map has all good warp points and an even amount of rock/gas/ice and different atmospheres (ie - every system has 12 planets, one each atmosphere of each different type) None atmosphere is not represented, so you will not want this type. I REPEAT, DO NOT TAKE NONE ATMOSPHERE AS THERE AREN'T ANY!! Again this was for game master purposes (and the fact that there are no none gas giants and I wanted an even playing field).

The game is not setup yet, so please post your interest/comments here. Hope you like (otherwise I've wasted a bunch of time)!!

[ April 11, 2003, 04:49: Message edited by: Gandalph ]

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Seems like a pretty cool idea. I might have to jump on this, since I just finished my Last game.

How do you make the "flag" indestructable?
Would it survive even if someone captures it and can't pay the maintenance? (Normally, your ships self-destruct when you can't pay, right?) Could someone who captured it Analyze it (thus disassembling it) ? Maybe these are all things discussed before.

Would the "flag" ship have normal ship movement (6-10)? A cloaking device? Shields? Weapons? Would we have to wait till we captured it to see?

You've gotta come up with a catchy name, too. Based on the custom map you've made, how about "Galaxy Wide Web", "Tasty fly for dinner", or "Race of the Spiders" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

I would assume that the game master would build a new flag if the first one got scrapped from maintenance.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

I think the other thread you're referring to is here:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...=008404#000001

The other thread mentions that if you give a component 0 hitpoints, it is indestructable. Also, if you make it as part of a custom racial tech tree, nobody can make their own "flag ship".

It would be quite disruptive, though, if the flag ship got lost to maintenance.
Best case scenario: have a "spare" ship already built in your "solo" system, and have it located on a sector with a warp opener. If the unthinkable happens, you could have the new flag ship into position in 1 turn (either back to the center, or back where it was when it died).

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

If you reread the game description, that is already covered. The game master has a custom racial trait already.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Neat idea, and nice map!

PvK

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

I'll play. Just us know when you're set.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

This sounds like a job for the Worms of Woe.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

OK, some interest!! Let me answer some of these questions.

Megatrain - The catchy name is "Tug of War", get it? The Tug has 3 indestructable components, the bridge and 2 ion engines 1 (and these are the only engines, so ship movement is 2), so it can still move when damaged. It is otherwise a defenseless ship (no armor, shields or weapons) which will cause it to run for a corner during battles.

If you can't pay the maintenance, I wouldn't suggest trying to capture it, unless it's a Last ditch effort to prevent someone else from getting it home.
If, for some reason including lack of maintenance, the Tug gets destroyed, the Game Master can build and place a new ship in as few as 3 turns.

If you analyze the ship, you will not get components as they are racial specific and analyzing the ship is not the object of the game.

The Game Master pays the maintenance until the Tug gets captured.

Because the components are racial specific, noone can make thier own.

To everyone - The idea of high maintenance was to force empires to be balanced economically and militarily. Your empire has to be able to afford the maintenance and protect the ship from all the others.

A question came up on IRC Last night about alliances. I do not have a problem with forming any alliance, just realize that there can only be 1 winner, whoever gets the Tug to his Homeworld.

The Mod needs to be installed at PBW before I can setup the game. I will post in this thread when that happens. Feel free to continue to ask questions and I will continue to answer them.

Gandalph

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I meant disassembling and analyzing the Tug as a method of self-destruction. (I assumed that "fire-on" wouldn't work if it had indestructable components.) This might be a Last-ditch effort if the enemy fleet is closing in and you don't want them to capture the Tug ship from you.

We could probably just make a house rule against this, and beat up any player who uses this tactic.

I wonder if there is a way to prevent someone from retrofitting this ship? As the special components are racial techs, you couldn't make a design incorporating those elements, but you could still "gut" the ship by retrofitting it to "standard" components, then zip it back to base with movement 13 and claim a win (or fire on and destroy it, I suppose).

UNLESS you had a non-standard hull type that nobody else had access to. Then you could not design a ship to upgrade it to. Can you make a hull size a racial tech? (This is probably the easiest option).

If that wasn't possible, to prevent retrofitting you could just make a super-SMALL ship size, that way you couldn't retrofit anything onto it, even removing the special components. If it was size 5kt, for example, but still required a bridge, life support, and crew quarters, you'd never be able to make a new legal design. The special bridge would count as all three component types to make it work. You could even MOD movement-2 into the hull itself, and make the bridge the full size of the ship.

[ March 20, 2003, 15:35: Message edited by: MegaTrain ]

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gandalph, you can setup the game on PBW anytime you'd like. Just set it as stock 1.84 but state clearly in the description that it's a mod game and you can even put a link to where the people can get the mod. This will allow you to get started on getting people joined in the game. I will have the mod ready for you by the time the game is ready to start and can change the mod for the game then. Actually as long as the mod is on there by the time the players all get their first turn in you can even start the game without the mod on PBW. But it shouldn't take me that long. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[ March 20, 2003, 15:28: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Megatrain - Due to the excessive cost of the bridge, I don't think it can be retro'ed, but I could be wrong (I will test this evening). The Tug is escort size. The Game Master would have to keep an eye on the Tug to verify it's 2 MP's, until I revise the mod to make a different, and racial specific, hull size. Thanks for catching that.

I will set up the first match this evening and players will be on a first come first served basis. I honestly expected a greater response to this as I thought most people would think like me and look for some different way of playing on PBW. Well, we'll see how the sing up goes.

Have fun, and PEACE!!

Gandalph

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

I have revised the mod as it was possible to retro the design. The Tug is now a racial specific 100kt transport and I gave it 3 MP's and supply generation of 50 per turn.

The game is now setup at PBW, which you can get to by clicking here. We will start the first game when we get 8 players.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Wow, had to bump this off page 2.

We have 3 players now, looking for 8 total. Anyone else up for an interesting challenge?

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

C'mon people, sign up for this baby so we can get it going! My computer isn't getting any newer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Ok, well I just applied to join. I'll give it a try. I'll get man handled probably but it should still be fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since the player can't retrofit it back to the original state, it would be plainly obvious when they attempted to claim the win ("ok, but I don't see a tug class ship in orbit of your homeworld, so you don't win")

Also, if/when the tug is destroyed, do you place it back at the center, or where it was lost?

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The ship can no longer be retro'd as it is racial specific. I have not yet decided on whether the ship would be placed at it's lost location or back in the center, so this is open for debate. I am leaning to back in the center as a sort of penalty for not being able to get it home.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The ship can no longer be retro'd as it is racial specific. I have not yet decided on whether the ship would be placed at it's lost location or back in the center, so this is open for debate. I am leaning to back in the center as a sort of penalty for not being able to get it home.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would recommend sending it back to the center as well. As you said a penalty for letting it be destroyed or some such. Just an opinion.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Gandalph... Sorry I think we lost our emails on this one. I will be the tug... Mod the tech tree to include the unique Trait TUG... With cloak level 5 or 6... so a cloaked ship can watch the tug... and make sure the game ends properly...

The tug race would have unique engines , cc and a unique QT Reactor... zero maintence and no damage...

I can make the map if you want to play ....

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with sending the Tug back to the center. Otherwise the Tug could spend an unwanted amount of time in one corner of the Map. This way a player who looses the tug has to scramble to get it back again.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, there is no "corner" on this map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , but I know what you mean.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

COME ON, EVERYONE! Join up!! (4 more players needed)

I noticed something odd about the MAP file included with the MOD. Not all systems have the standard 12 planets. 3 of the "spokes" of the web have one or more empty systems. I would imagine you intended it to be symetrical.

North branch: Inner system empty (Ibsunk)
Northwest: Inner system empty (Dussullet)
SouthEast: TWO inner systems empty (Mentocka and Neckron)

The SouthEast player would be especially at a disadvantage, it seems to me. If the one I'm looking at isn't the final MAP file you've used, please disregard.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

You are sort of correct, I found 4 systems without planets. That has now been corrected and thanks for catching it.

I will be posting what I hope to be the final Version of the mod this evening. I am going too add the ability of the Game Master to monitor Tug progress with a cloaked, unlimited supply ship as Tesco suggested, so if you have already downloaded the Mod, you will need to do so again.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Well, we now have 5 players, just 3 more needed to get this (hopefully) great game started.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

I joined this game, downloaded mod, noticed some strange things.

1. Gergan system has 5 rock planets, 4 ice, 3 gas.

2. I have 7 Master Space Yards (can build with 40000 each of resources and produces 40000 of each resources) built on my homeplanet. (I didn't take Game Master advanced trait). It has been said, that it will be hard to maintain the tug- I don't think so. My homeworld produces ~300000-400000 of each resorces.

3. I can build ships (and tug also), that has Master components, making them indestructable.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

What Version of the mod did you get? Version 1.2 should have corrected the problems and I did extensive testing, which I will now double check.

EDIT - After triple checking I did find the planet mix-up in Gergan and fixed it (damn map editor, I hate it).
I have also revised the racial tech's for Game Master. I have tested it by starting a game 3 times and the Master ships, components, and facilities were not available to anyone but the Game Master. If someone would like to test it again before the game starts, please do. It is now Version 1.4 and should have a file name of TugofWar_v14.zip

[ March 28, 2003, 02:20: Message edited by: Gandalph ]

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

I used Version 1.1 (that you included in a game description). Could you include the Last Version link there?

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

And one more thing- there are 4 hydrogen, 2 carbon dioxide planets in Jethanis.

[ March 28, 2003, 14:34: Message edited by: BBegemott ]

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

OK, here is a link to the latest Version, 1.5, and I think I got it all right this time. If you find any problems with this one, please post right away.

Thanks,
Gandalph

EDIT - Fixed Jethanis, inspected all systems for errors, changed master repair component to master space yard component, updated info file to include Game Master instructions, updated above link to point at new file Version. Also updated the link on the game description page.

[ March 29, 2003, 00:19: Message edited by: Gandalph ]

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What about blockading a home planet? Is it assumed to be the same as attacking, or not?

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What about blockading a home planet? Is it assumed to be the same as attacking, or not?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Putting a ship in orbit around a home planet, in SE4 terms, is the same as attacking and will not be allowed. The concept here is basically, stay out of others home systems unless making a Last ditch effort to capture the Tug before said player gets it to his Home planet.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

What if a homeworld is attacked (blockaded) by accident? It can happen using intelligence project 'crew insurection', selecting 'Any ship'. Or if a target ship moves to homeworld (e.g. for resuplying, retrofitting) and is insurected with intel.

I think you should clearly state your position, what happens if this rule will be broken (both: accidently or on purpose). (E.g. killing the guilty empire or reduing the turn or smth else). Stating this would allow to avoid any unpleasantness that might arise in the future.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

I have just tested 1.5 Version. Everything seems to work just fine.

Come on, it is going to be a bloody skirmish!

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Good Point!

I will post here and on the game description page.

PuppetPoliticalParties and intentionally sending a ship or fleet at an opponents Homeworld are disallowed. If this should happen, the turn will be rolled back and the offender seriously booed. If an Intel attack captures a ship that is on or near an opponents Homeworld, it's up to the defender to be prepared.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Given the map layout and the probable strength of home systems, I wouldn't be too worried. You could always put out a v1.5a with PPP disabled, just to be safe. I think the vast majority of players wouldn't push things, especially on PBW. I have selected the wrong intel project by mistake before, though.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

We now have 7 players. We need just 1 more!!

In regards to PPP, the mod Version 1.5, has been applied to the game so I think we will just leave it as is. As stated, if I see it happen, we will roll back the turn and that player just wasted a whole bunch of intel points.

atari_eric - You were approved for the game and the email telling you so was kicked back with no such address. Please correct this error by updating your PBW profile with a good email address.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Good to see the game get's started.
Altough I started the original thread I didn't think there were enough interest to push it to existance based on the response in that thread.
I think that as there are so many mods people aren't all that interested in different custom games.
I've tried some different approaches but not gotten very much response, not anywhere near as much as when talking about starting a basic no mods game.

Sadly right now I'm in more games (And about to start in two more) then my family can put up with.
Otherwise I'd join this one too.

[ March 30, 2003, 17:23: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's odd... I checked pbw.cc and it seemed to have the right address... did I put the wrong one in the empire file?

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

OK, we got our first 8 players. Please use the game forum to further discuss questions about format et al.

If this game proves enjoyable enough, we may start another. We will see how it goes. I will occasionally post updates about the Tug progress here for all to see.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Well, we are 10 turns into this now and I have to say it does look quite interesting.

We have a couple of Psychic empires, a couple of empires setup for intel, a couple that look like they are going for brute force, and even someone with Crystaline for that maintenance reduction.

Some players are colonizing all available planets, while others are making a beeline to the breathables.

I don't think anyone has a major advantage yet, but there are a couple of empires that got off to a slow start. Perhaps they too are going to rely on Intel.

Wiil keep you posted.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

50 turns into this game and it looks like it may be ending soon. Spoon took the Tug away from MegaTrain some turns ago and has been steadily marching towards his home system basically uncontested. He is now only 2 spaces from his home system warp point. There will be a battle next turn as some of the other races are attempting to block access to his home system, however Spoon has the numbers. The Tug fleet is 70 ships strong and I see only 15 ships blocking the warp point. There is another 21 ship fleet and 6 ship fleet on it's way there, but it may be too late by the time they arrive. The other empires only other hope would be Crew Insurrection, but Spoon's empire is setup with Superior Cunning, so I would suspect that an intel attack would not succeed.

I would like the players of the game to comment here on the game, good, bad, or indifferent.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

And I can't even play my turns... my ships probably aren't even headed to the warp point anymore! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Is the NO-AI mod part of the Tug of War mod so at least my ships will retain their orders?

Oh well, 6 ships or so won't help anyway...

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Yeah, Spoon has outsmattered us. Still I really enjoyed this game. Thank you guys for a good game atmosphere and special thanks to Gandalph for a brilliant mod idea!

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

The Last turn revealed that Spoon's fleet made it through the warp point, taking some damage and losing a dozen or so ships, however, the Tug is by itself at the point of battle. There are ships on the way to intercept, so it may not be over yet.

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's not what High Lord Smmmrrlgor wants to hear first thing in the morning. Death to the Messenger!

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which brings up the question, why isn't the tug on the other side of the warp-point with the rest of the fleet it belonged to? It wasn't captured in any of the battles. It wasn't stolen by intel (and if it had been, it wouldn't still be under my control...)

I'm at a loss to explain it--- what would make a ship remove itself from its own fleet???

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

Maybe it was damaged in combat, or ran out of suply?

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then the whole fleet should have stopped...

Re: Tug of War - Progress Thread
 

"I'm at a loss to explain it--- what would make a ship remove itself from its own fleet???"

Intel changing its orders.