Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

The thread, "Frequently Asked Questions for Newbies" has this to say:
========================================
2.5.2.1.1.2 At max tech, Stealth Armor is worth using in place of some shield generators or standard armors if:
15% of the total firepower an enemy must use to kill your ship is greater than 165 points of damage. This includes misses!
2.5.2.1.1.3 EG: if enemy ships are attacking with an accuracy of 30%, and your ship has 600 shield points, the enemy must fire on average 600/0.30 = 2000 damage worth of ordnance at you in order to kill your ships. 15% of 2000 is 300, which is greater than 165.
Therefore, by removing some shield generation and adding stealth armor, you will increase your ship's survival time. (Suicide Junkie)
2.5.2.1.2 Scattering armor
2.5.2.1.2.1 The situation with scattering armor is very similar to that of Stealth armor. The difference is that the scattering armor is less efficient. If given the choice of ONLY Stealth or Scattering armor, go for the stealth armor first.
2.5.2.1.2.2 At max tech, the value of scattering armor can be calculated similarly to that of stealth armor.
The only difference in this case is that you should use 290 in place of 165.
Using the example given for stealth armor, you can see that scattering armor would only barely be worthwhile. (Suicide Junkie)
===============================================

What does this mean?

I thought stealth and scattering armor gave the ship a 15% defensive bonus, thus making it harder to hit. And once hit, a ships damage is calculated normally.

Where did 165 and 290 damage points come from? And what is the explanation for their use?

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

You may prefer my own rule :
both stealth and scattering armors are mandatory on all ships whith 2 exceptions.

Exception 1 : you are fighting ships with talisman.

Exception 2 : You are fighting a missile race.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe it is wrong, and you can safely ignore it. The 15% is additive, so the benefit you get on it varies based on the probability of being hit. If we knew what the average chance to hit was in SE4, then you could apply a system like this to figure out how much damage the stealth armor saves you from.

Bottom line should be: put both armors on all your attack ships, with a few exceptions. For example: Ships designed solely for worm-hole defense might want to skip them in lieu of more weapons. Ships designed to fight a race with Talismans don't need them, either).

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

Hey guys, I hear what you are saying and you basically mirror my own thought/beliefs at the moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But Suicide Junkie has been around for a long time and I respect his opinions/findings although I may not necessarily agree with them all the time.

So, in order to formulate my own opinion about what he has said, I need to know what he means by what he said.

And at the moment, I am at a loss as to what he means.

Other questions like ascertaining the probability of a hit would be questions to ask after we fully understand his position.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

The 290 and 165 values are the break-even points of shields vs scattering and stealth armor, respectively.

If 15% (in the case of level 3 armor) of the total firepower the enemy must aim at you in order to breach your shields/armor is bigger than the break-even point, then the ECM effect of the armor is worth more than the extra shielding would be.

To figure out whether it is worth putting the armor on instead of more shield generator, do the following:
1) Take the shield points currently generated.
2) divide by the typical to-hit chance the enemy has against you. (30% accuracy means divide by 0.30)
The result there is the amount of weaponry/ammo the enemy usually has to fire at you to get enough hits for a kill.
3) Multiply the result in (2) by the ECM ability of your armor (0.05 = 5%, 0.10 = 10%, 0.15 = 15%)

If the answer you get is bigger than 165, then stealth armor is worthwhile. If it is bigger than 290, then scattering armor is also worthwhile.
If the number is less, then keeping the shields will make your ship Last longer.

Note: Odd situations will keep things dicey.
If the enemy has a super-huge gun (battlemoon, say) that kills in one shot, then you'll always want to go with the ECM, since hitpoints don't matter anymore.
Missiles and talismans will push the results the other way, since ECM is useless.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

Hi SJ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Still trying to get my brain around the logic of how shields and stealth/scattering armor can be compared.

The former prevents damage whereas the later helps to prevent a hit.

Maybe it would clear up if you could provide the formula by which the 290 and 165 values are derived.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

So what the others were thinking is basicaly correct.
Since you will be recieving 15 to 30 percent fewer hits you need fewer shield gnerators.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Except that the math he uses only applies to situations where the enemy has base 100% to hit (before armor modifications). If the enemy had a base 30% to hit, adding both armors would mean you would only be hit 1% of the time, which is not correctly reflected in his formulae.

Best advice is to put the armor on everything, unless you don't care about being hit, or your enemy is going to hit you 100% of the time anyway.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

Yes it is. You dived the decimal representation of their average chance to hit into the shield points you have. If you have 1000 shields and they have 100% to hit, they have to do an average of 1000 damage worth of shots to breach your shields. If they have a 50% to hit chance, they have to do an average of 2000 damage worh of shots to breach your shields. His formula reflects the base/average chance to hit very well.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

OK Guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So what is the formula?

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

Go read SJ's post again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The values would be how many shield points an equivalent size of shield generators make.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I feel I have read it a hundred times and am still lost.

I am hoping the formuala will help me make sense of all this.

If it is so easy, why cannot someone give it to me?

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh I see, step 2 includes the defensive value of the armor. I thought he was adding it in step 3. Sorry SJ. Go formula!

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I feel I have read it a hundred times and am still lost.

I am hoping the formuala will help me make sense of all this.

If it is so easy, why cannot someone give it to me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">SJ's post is the formula. Follow it step by step, and you will achieve the results.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I feel I have read it a hundred times and am still lost.

I am hoping the formuala will help me make sense of all this.

If it is so easy, why cannot someone give it to me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">SJ's post is the formula. Follow it step by step, and you will achieve the results.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fyron, humour me.

Show me step by step, what SJ has posted on the site will provide me with the formula which yielded the derived 290 and 165 values.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

I always try to put as much weaponry on a ship, and do the armor as an afterthougt. NOw I may have to rethink that. Is it better to be more armed, or armored?

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is not what the forumla calculates. I already said where I think those values came from.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That all depends on the situation. It is better to be phase-shielded than armored (stealth and scattering armor do not count as "armored" because they are not structural armors; their entire purpose is ECM-defense, not hit point-defense). It is always better to have some armor/shields than none. But how much is best varies depending on the game situation. Try testing various designs in the Combat Simulator to see which function best in certain situations.

[ March 19, 2003, 22:03: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is not what the forumla calculates. I already said where I think those values came from.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Finally you got it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So what is the formula which will give me the 290 and 165 values? I am sure SJ didn't pull them out of thin air.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

You just worded your question poorly.

As I have already stated:

The values would be based on how many hit points (from shield points) an equivalent size of shield generators make that you give up.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it was not worded poorly. And it is the same question in my third post of this thread.

Unfortunately, you choose to interprete it to refer to something else.

Take a look at my third post at the beginning of this thread, and you will see that my question asks for the formula as to how the 290 and 165 values were derived.

So if you do not know the formula which will give the 290 and 165 values, just say so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 19, 2003, 22:27: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

tbontob
I think it has something to do with
comparing the cost per kT of protection between Standard Shields and the two armors.

I can't do the math but I think it is in there

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

As I think Spoon said, however, such a formula can't reduce the choice of to-hit modifiers versus shields to a simple exchange rate, especially given the way SE4 adds to-hit chances.

Since SE4 to-hit mods aren't true factors, but additive modifiers, any such formula would only apply to specific examples requiring all the other factors to be known. Unless you are only fighting one type of enemy unit, and they always fire at the same range, etc, the formula will give different values in each case.

PvK

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I think you are right about the kT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I don't think the formula I am asking for is in the SJ's posting to the Newbie thread.

I also suspect the protection given by the armor is probably factored in too.

So, it may be a complicated formula. I have dealt with many a complicated formula and one more should'nt throw me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am asking for it because the formula will help me to understand the relationship between shield and scattering/stealth armor.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

That was quite a while ago...
I don't remember how exactly I got those numbers.

PSG: 375/40 = 9.375
StA: 100/30 = 3.333
ScA: 150/50 = 3.000

Lets see if I can't figure out what I was thinking...
Due to its use, it has to be related to the change in firepower required to kill your ship.

Perhaps a much simpler way would be to:
A) Use steps 1 and 2 to find out how much ammo the enemy will need to throw at you if you use shields.
B) Use steps 1 and 2 to find out how much ammo they have to use if you replace some shields with Stealth/Scattering armor.
C) The ship design which gives the bigger number is stronger.

[ March 19, 2003, 22:46: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yup. Step (2) has the problem of being extraordinarily difficult to calculate, esp. for a newbie. It's probably best to simply advise players to always research armor up to 6, and to always put def. armors on all attack ships.

Also, I think I'm reversing my reversal, and going back to thinking the formula SJ gives is wrong. Death to SJ! Down with the formula!

-Spoon

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PvK, I suspect you and Spoon may be right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But we will not be able to determine that with any certainty until we have the formula.

But if so, then the values of 290 and 165 should be used with some care.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just a thought, was the formula discussed in a thread?

[ March 19, 2003, 22:50: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

Possibly in the thread we submitted the stuff in.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's a good way to go about it. Don't forget to add in the armor value of the defensive armors, too.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmmm

Did a search with SJ's number and "stealth" and no results except for our current discussion.

Tried it again with "scattering" and ditto.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

Hitpoints / chance to be hit = average firepower thrown at your ship. (Toughness)
Overkill, cripplings, and internals being ignored.

Lets see there.
As a random example:
500 shield points, and typically 40% to hit.
That gives 500/.4 = 1250
1250*.15 = 187.5, pretty close to that 165 number.

Sacrifice 280 shield points to put on a stealth armor...
220+100 = 320 @ 40-15 = 25%
320/.25 = 1280, which goes to show stealth is slightly better.

1000 shield points, at 80% to hit.
1000 /.8 = 1250
--&gt 187.5 just like before...
1000-280+100 = 820 @ .65
--&gt 1261, but still better.

Now, 30kt* (Shield points/kt - Armor points/kt) = 181.26
The 165 may have come from 30*(350/40 - 100/30) = 162.5
In that case, I was probably did not have the data files in front of me and used the wrong value.

To test:
181.26 / .15 = 1208.4 effective hitpoints.
To hit it with a toughie right away, lets say the base to-hit is 15%.
1208.4*.15 = 181.26 shield points.

Sacrifice 280 shields, add 100 stealth armor hitpoints gives you basically zero.
But since you've got a 15-15 = 0% to hit rate, it balances out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

1208.4 * .65 = 785.46
Sacrifice 280 add 100, you get 605.46.
605.46 /.50 = 1211
And it just barely breaks even again...

A little less than 180:
1130 * .15 = 169.5 (&lt 180)
226/.2 = 1130 shields only
226-180= 46 /.05 = 920 with stealth armor.

452/.4 = 1130 shields only
452-180 = 272 /.25 = 1088 with stealth armor.

--

So it seems I may have been using the wrong value for the shields/kt, and the true values to compare to should be:
size* (Shields/kt - Armor/kt)
30 * (9.375 - 3.333) = 180 for stealth armor
50 * (9.375 - 3.000) = 320 for Scattering armor

[ March 19, 2003, 23:41: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which is precisely what I have been saying all along.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

New, improved, and simplified Method!

1) Take the shield points currently generated.
2) Estimate the typical hit rate that your enemy has against your ship.
3) Multiply your answers from (1) and (2), then divide by 100.
4) If the answer you get is:
less than 1200 : Do not bother with Stealth or Scattering armor.
from 1200 to 1670 : Add a Stealth armor only.
1670 or higher : Add both Stealth and Scattering armor.

1200 - comes from: 30x(9.375 -3.333)/.15
1670 - comes from (80 x (9.375 - [3.333*30 + 3*50]/80) ) /.3
= 80x (9.375 - 3.125)/.3
Which, again is: Size * (shields/kt - armor/kt)
And then divided by the ECM power to get us up to effective hitpoints.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I see you were.
Maybe you need to use more Greek letters (or at least basic math symbols) next time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 20, 2003, 00:04: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was a jab at tbontob, not you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I guess he didn't like having to insert his own greek letters and basic math symbols. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was a jab at tbontob, not you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I guess he didn't like having to insert his own greek letters and basic math symbols. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe you need to use more Greek letters (or at least basic math symbols) next time [/quote]That was a jab at tbontob, not you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I guess he didn't like having to insert his own greek letters and basic math symbols. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [/QB][/quote]

LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron that was a tongue in cheek remark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And thanks SJ for the time and effort you have put into this.

I'll have to digest it and will get back to you.

[ March 20, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are the MAN. Awesome. No doubt about it. I will be copying this to the FAQ.

Slick.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is just algebra. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was a jab at tbontob, not you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I guess he didn't like having to insert his own greek letters and basic math symbols. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe you need to use more Greek letters (or at least basic math symbols) next time </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was a jab at tbontob, not you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I guess he didn't like having to insert his own greek letters and basic math symbols. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron that was a tongue in cheek remark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Guess you missed it.

And thanks SJ for the time and effort you have put into this.

I'll have to digest it and will get back to you.

EDIT: Repaired the UBB quote tag fragments.

[ March 20, 2003, 00:59: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

Sorry guys, I kinda screwed up the multiple Posts and was trying to correct it.

Seems I posted rather than edited.

EDIT: Thanks SJ for fixing up my messed up post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 20, 2003, 01:04: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

There is a preview button. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Remind me again what "tongue in cheek remark" means.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, in this situation the person (not me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )superficially and with some irony agreed with your statement but really didn't.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

I'd like to know where that phrase came from...
I find it really hard to speak clearly if I do put my toungue over onto the inside of my cheek. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

You don't need to quote the post when it is just before yours...

I don't really see much of that in SJ's post, but whatever. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 20, 2003, 01:27: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's just say I reserve my right to quote a person. My choice, not yours, however much you may dislike it.

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

It makes the post unnecessarily long, and waste's everyone's time (esp. low-bandwidth Users).

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeh! Worse, I am likely to bite my tongue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

http://www.wordorigins.org/

Great place to find out where strange words or phrases come from.

----
Tongue in Cheek:
The commonly told tale about this phrase is that it derives from the acting practice of thrusting one's tongue into your cheek to keep from laughing at an inappropriate moment. There is no evidence to support this story or the idea that the phrase comes from the theater.

The phrase dates to 1748 when it was fashionable to signal contempt for someone by making a bulge in your cheek with your tongue. By 1842 the phrase had acquired its modern, ironic sense.
----

Chris Woods

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

SJ's supposedly toungue in cheek post was not very ironic (well, not ironic at all, really). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My reply is the same:

Let's just say I reserve my right to quote a person. My choice, not yours, however much you may dislike it.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

And if you are really sincere in what you say, you will elimate all that extraneous stuff below your actual message.

So I will watch and see if you do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Otherwise it is all B.S.

[ March 20, 2003, 05:55: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus
 

No, it is not BS. I have condensed my signature as much as possible, while still conveying the necessary information. You can not use my signature as any sort of argument, until you remove your own. It takes about as much space as mine does, but mine has lots of useful links in it; yours does not.