Thoughts behind mounts
 

Hey all,

So some other comments by Users got me to thinking about mounts. Currently, I'm disatisfied with the way mounts are implemented. Basically, it's a "bigger is always better" syndrome, which doesn't make for good tactical consideration.

As an example, lets take "Large Mounts":

Cost x1.5
Tonnage x1.5
Damage x2
Supplies x2

So, basically what this amounts to is you get 2 weapons for the price of 1.5, as if getting larger hull sizes isn't enough of a reward in itself!

Mounts should not be a "no-brainer must use" thing as they currently stand. Take this counter-example for Large Mounts:

Cost x2
Tonnage x2
Range +3
Damage x1.5
Supplies x2

Ok, so now you get less damage per ton, but a better range. The better range results in the "first strike" oppurtunity, which can in some cases make up for the lost damage/tonnage ratio. This makes for a strategic consideration rather then a "must have, no brainer". Furthermore, you can remove any "minimum size" limit as the maximum hull space of the ship will eventually limit the mount you can put on it. Dreadnaughts are still better then 6 escorts for durability reasons as well as the sheer array of weapons they can use (Escorts lose a higher percentage of their space to engnies and bridge/crew/life support then a Dreadnaught will) but we haven't made escorts completly meaningless.

I really think the logic behind mounts needs to be reconsidered as the current model just falls prey to the "bigger is always better" mentality, and in a strategic game "no brainer" choices should be kept to a minimum.

Chris Woods

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

There is a mount mod out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And I agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

Yes, mounts in SE IV are very simplistic. You can only apply ONE mount to a weapon, for example, while you could apply four or more modifiers to weapons in MOO 2. Maybe more? I dunno if there was an arbitrary limit or if there was just no weapon with more than four options available.

At least they can be restricted by technology in the latest patches. This allows all sorts of interesting variations within the restriction of one mount per weapon. Being able to apply some of the special damage types would be nice, too. Maybe for SE V.

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

*lightbulb sparks above head* how about that:

Cost x1.5
Tonnage x1.5
Range -1
Damage x2
Supplies x2

and -1 for each size Category. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

Several mods use more balanced mounts. For example, large ship weapon mounts in Proportions have an accuracy penalty.

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

Adamant mod has totally removed the base SE4 ship mounts. I am not sure if the new mounts are 100% balanced, but they are much better than the mount system of unmodded SE4. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

After playing around making a few modded mounts that are better in a balance prespective, I've found that the AI will religiously put the largest possible mount it can, assuming that the size will increace the damage sufficently.

This is annoying, as I want mounts that are tactical rather than simply "better by default".

Poking around in the AI design files has made me come to beleive that there is no way to specify to the AI either a ratio of different mounts to use or a "maximum mount" on specific designs.

Does anyone who knows more about the AI files (which is basically everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) have any suggestions as to how I might be able to have more control over the way the AI uses mounts, or are we stuck with a system where the AI will blindly assume that the bigger mounts always yield better results?

Chris Woods

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

The AI uses the Last mount in the list that is available to that size of vehicle, period. All you can do is put the most general mount Last, so the AIs will use it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 20, 2003, 04:48: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

size requirements can be exploited here you know

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

So, correct me if I'm wrong in assuming I could do the following:

1> Create multiple entries for each mount with respect to both the min and max vehicle size. (ie, the same mount, but an entry for vehicle sizes 150-250, 300-500, etc.) -- this should be invisible to the player so that he or she only sees one "large mount" option per ship design.

2> Order them in such a way that the AI only uses the larger stylized mounts when it seems halfway appropriate to integrate them.

3> Finally, the mounts can't be too specific else the AI ships will all have obvious weaknesses based completly upon the size of the ship. (ie- all "battlecruiser" AI ships will use "large ER mounts" which will get cut to peices by small, fast ships.)

---

Ok, so thats a challenge. And it raises another question:

Can I control the AI to use mixed arms? ie- make fleets consisting of ratios, like "1 Battlecruiser to 2 Destroyer to 2 Escort"? That would give me enough flexability to make the AI use mixed mounts that would (hopefully) make for much more intresting tactical combat.

Any help here greatly appreciated. Taking this AI apart isn't easy.

Chris Woods

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

AI just rounds random ships into fleets. Thats it.

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

Yes, the AI offers no way to control how a fleet is put together. You can manage to make it build a mix of different sizes of ships with the constructon file, but after that it's pot-luck as to what ships get put into what fleet(s).

This is another improvement we'd like to see in either SE IV or SE V. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 20, 2003, 17:46: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

Atrocities mentioned it earlier, but there are a couple of mount mods out there. Since I can't access my files anymore until I get the chance to re-download everything, I don't remember the names. But they should be in the mods download area. There was a couple I was using (not in the same game, however), but I don't remember the names. But I know one of them would reduce the size of the mount the higher you got in your research. But you had to research a bunch of stuff, like physics, engines, armor, and maybe a half a dozen more areas. You might want to check out that mod.

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

If you go to http://www.malfador.com/se4mods.html, you can look for the mount mods in the list. There is Deathstalker's Mount Mod, and then MountMod-AJC. There might be another one or two out there. If so, please tell us, so we can get it added to the mods page. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 20, 2003, 18:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Thoughts behind mounts
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">MountMod-AJC. Yeah, that's the one I was using. It was pretty good too. It just takes times to get everything because you have to research so much.