.com.unity Forums - OT: Captured Troops

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)

- Space Empires: IV & V (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)

- - OT: Captured Troops (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=8967)

Atrocities

March 23rd, 2003 07:57 PM

OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

DOHA, Qatar (March 23) - The Arab satellite station Al-Jazeera aired footage from Iraqi television Sunday of interviews with what the station identified as captured American prisoners, and also showed bodies in uniform in an Iraqi morgue that it said were Americans.

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld told CBS that if they are indeed coalition soldiers, ''those pictures are a violation of the Geneva Convention.''

After watching the videotape, U.S. defense officials said a small number of U.S. troops have apparently been captured and others killed by the Iraqi military in southern Iraq.

The officials, who asked not to be identified, said there was no direct confirmation of the capture, apparently involving as many as 10 U.S. troops from an American Army maintenance unit, but that notifications were being made to families based on the tape.

''To me, it (the tape) was convincing,'' said one of the defense officials. Others said the tape could have been made by the Iraqi military and provided to al-Jazeera.

There was no confirmation that the prisoners were U.S. troops, or if they were, what unit they were attached to. Two of the prisoners identified their unit only as the 507th Maintenance; there is a 507th in both the Army and the Air Force.

The U.S. Central Command had no comment.

In the broadcast, four bodies could be seen lying on the floor of the room.

The station said they and the prisoners were captured around Nasiriyah, a major crossing point over the Euphrates northwest of Basra.

The British Ministry of Defense refused to comment about a BBC report that four were killed and 50 wounded during eight hours of fighting in Nasiriyah.

Al-Jazeera later showed footage of what appeared to be a fuel or water carrier parked alongside a highway and a body in uniform with full gear and still wearing a helmet lying behind the carrier.

In the Iraqi television footage, at least five prisoners including one woman were interviewed separately. Two were bandaged. They spoke American-accented English.

One of the men, sitting up, was being interviewed by an unseen person holding a microphone labeled ''Iraqi TV.'' The prisoner spoke in English and at one point said: ''I'm sorry. I don't understand you.''

The narrator provided an Arabic translation, but it was possible to hear some of the comments in English.

The prisoners looked terrified. One captive, who said he was from Kansas, answered all his questions in a shaky voice, his eyes darting back and forth between and interviewer and another person who couldn't be seen on camera.

Asked why he came to Iraq, he simply replied ''I come to fix broke stuff.''

Prodded again by the interviewer, he was asked if he came to shoot Iraqis.

''No I come to shoot only if I am shot at,'' he said. ''They (Iraqis) don't bother me, I don't bother them.''

Another prisoner, who said he was from Texas, said only: ''I follow orders.''

A voice off-camera asked ''how many officers'' were in his unit.

''I don't know sir,'' the man replied.

Another prisoner, who also said he was from Texas, was lying on an elaborate maroon mat. The camera panned from his feet to his head, showing one of his arms as injured and lying across his chest.

Iraqi TV attempted to interview him lying down, at one point trying to cradle his head so it would hold steady for the camera. The eventually helped him sit up, but he seemed to sway slightly.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Not to mention that there is also an aircraft missing and Iraqis are searching for the two pilots.

Add to the fact that an Arab-America Soldier use a granade to kill and wound several of his fellow soldiers as a demonstration against the war, one can safely say we are in it now.

PsychoTechFreak

March 23rd, 2003 08:16 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

I have seen this tape on TV news a few hours ago. I wish I would not have seen this...
Geneva Convention, far from the mark if this was not a fake.

Baron Munchausen

March 23rd, 2003 08:17 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

This is not surprising. They know their only hope of victory is through unrest at home, so they will exploit every opportunity to make the 'public' at home unhappy.

The soldier who attacked the command center has not been properly identified. There are rumors that he is 'African-American' as the current euphemism goes, and recently converted to Islam --though it's likely an American flavor of Islam with doctrines that other Muslims world-wide would consider a bit unorthodox.

Whatever color he is now, he'll be pale as a cave fish after 20 years of not seeing the sun. He may spend the rest of his life in a military prison. (I suspect that the firing squad is too politically dangerous even for W. to revive.)

[ March 23, 2003, 18:18: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 23rd, 2003 08:32 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
This is not surprising. They know their only hope of victory is through unrest at home, so they will exploit every opportunity to make the 'public' at home unhappy.

Probably this could also repolarize the other pro-Saddam arabs, even they have been terrified by this video (from what europe news have published).

mac5732

March 24th, 2003 05:34 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

I didn't see the film, but I did see the photo, Like as already been stated, this was to incense the other Arab countries and inflame them to either put pressure on the US to stop or to incite them into violence against the US and its Allies. It also shows the type of Regime we are dealing with and the type of people involved. To me, (my opinion only) it appears that these men were shot inside the building. (look at the blood on the floor plus their dress.

What I find more disturbing then these photos was the announcement that the Russians have been selling Iraq jammers and that they have Techs currently in Iraq training them on their use against us, and in addition, that these were smuggled into the country in boxs from the UN for humanitarian aid. I wouldn't doubt that we may also find France has been selling them military items as well,, could this be why France and Russia were so against the attack? For Financial Reasons? This is only my opinion, I do not mean to offend anyone

TerranC

March 24th, 2003 05:57 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

Originally posted by mac5732:
could this be why France and Russia were so against the attack? For Financial Reasons? This is only my opinion, I do not mean to offend anyone

Well, it did come up that Russia has some loans to collect from Iraq and that France has showed more than a slight interest on the Iraqi oil fields...

[ March 24, 2003, 03:58: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Aloofi

March 24th, 2003 04:11 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

From the Onion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif :

Bush Orders Iraq To Disarm Before Start Of War
WASHINGTON, DC�Maintaining his hardline stance against Saddam Hussein, President Bush ordered Iraq to fully dismantle its military before the U.S. begins its invasion next week. "U.S. intelligence confirms that, even as we speak, Saddam is preparing tanks and guns and other weapons of deadly force for use in our upcoming war against him," Bush said Sunday during his weekly radio address. "This madman has every intention of firing back at our troops when we attack his country." Bush warned the Iraqi dictator to "lay down [his] weapons and enter battle unarmed, or suffer the consequences."

dogscoff

March 24th, 2003 04:33 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

I hope the pictures are fakes, or that Iraq actually treats any prisoners of war it has taken according to agreed standards of human rights. Unfortunately Saddam hussein is more than capable of all kinds of atrocities, and he will do whatever he feels is necessary to generate unrest among the US public in the hopes that they call their troops home.

Also, the US should fulfil their own human rights obligations to the people held at camp X-Ray before they start quoting the Geneva Convention at other countries.

von_toaster

March 24th, 2003 05:58 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Dogscoff is right.
May I remind you of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners which, according to US, are not covered by the Geneva convention?

Aloofi

March 24th, 2003 06:05 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

Originally posted by von_toaster:
Dogscoff is right.
May I remind you of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners which, according to US, are not covered by the Geneva convention?

Right on. I find very inmoral to claim Geneva status when that status is not giving to your enemies.

I don't wanna think what the CIA is doing to those poor bastards in Guantanamo.
I don't care that much for the Al Qaeda ones, but many of them are etnic Pashtus from the Taliban who have nothing to do with 9/11.

Rollo

March 24th, 2003 06:14 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

another fine statement from Secretery of Hypocrisy, D. Rumsfeld... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

PsychoTechFreak

March 24th, 2003 06:24 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

War prisoners in the hands of Iraqi: Never say die, yet! The US "preventive" attack shall be deemed to be a not legitimated and unnecessary attack, which it probably is, except for the home made legitimation based on prima facie evidence. For the moment the Iraqi are "bounded in honor" in order to prove this breach of international law. Or why do you think they have not yet used their weapons of mass destruction? Lurking doubts? US now have the obligation to find these evil weapon stocks to get at least a moral legitimation afterwards. In mourning for the dead everything is sa(i)d. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

disabled

March 24th, 2003 06:29 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

A large number of the prisoners in Cuba have been released already, I should point out.

But what I think people are forgetting is something mroe than slightly distrubing about that captured helicopter in Iraq.

There was no damage and it had a full missile compliment. What does that mean?

Rollo

March 24th, 2003 06:39 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

That probably means that they had to emergency land before reaching their mission target.

[ March 24, 2003, 16:41: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Aloofi

March 24th, 2003 06:43 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

Originally posted by Iggiboo:

But what I think people are forgetting is something mroe than slightly distrubing about that captured helicopter in Iraq.

There was no damage and it had a full missile compliment. What does that mean?

1- Mechanical malfuntion
2- Were Arab-Americans and switched sides
3- Were dominated with Psychic weapons
4- Were vaporized with a secret weapon
5- Were adducted by aliens
6- Was an Iraki made fake chopper for publicity
7- None of the above

geoschmo

March 24th, 2003 06:57 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Where are you getting information that there was no damage? Just because it didn't smack up on landing doesn't mean it wasn't damaged. The television pictures I have seen aren't clear enough to say that it was totally undamaged.

Helicopters are hard things to keep flying under good circumstances. It doesn't take a tremendous amount of damage to force one down. It's unfortunate that the pilots weren't able to toss a grenade in the cockpit before evacuating it, but that sort of thing is more hollywood than reality anyway. Their only thought I am sure was getting the hell away from the chopper as fast as possible and finding a deep hole to crawl in.

Geoschmo

dogscoff

March 24th, 2003 07:00 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

A large number of the prisoners in Cuba have been released already, I should point out.

So?

Aloofi

March 25th, 2003 04:53 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Well, now Bush can justify his war.

He can say: "This war is being waged to save the lives of our brave soldiers illegally captured by the evil Irakis"

With the ChickenHawk Brigade in the Whitehouse you never know...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dogscoff

March 25th, 2003 05:06 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

Well, now Bush can justify his war.

He can say: "This war is being waged to save the lives of our brave soldiers illegally captured by the evil Irakis"

lol! That would be funny if I thought he wouldn't do it- and he'd probably make it stick too, because people are so ready to believe anything they are told when this kind of patriotic frenzy is whipped up.

Aloofi

March 25th, 2003 06:01 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

By the way, who was the first showing enemy prisioners of war on TV?
CNN or Iraki TV?

Phoenix-D

March 25th, 2003 11:13 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

"By the way, who was the first showing enemy prisioners of war on TV?
CNN or Iraki TV?"

Just curious, but what does this have to do with anything?

Phoenix-D

phaet2112

March 25th, 2003 11:20 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Illuminating the hypocritical nature of the sec. of defense and our own media (Paula Zahn on CNN the morning the men and women were shown on video saying "this is ghastly and disgusting." yet cuts to our own footage of us leading iraqi troops away.) And loudly proclaming how many troops we've captured, and how well we are treating them, in comparison to the people still detained at guantanomo bay or the possibly hundreds we've killed in afghanistan.

PsychoTechFreak

March 25th, 2003 11:38 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Just curious, but what does this have to do with anything?

Phoenix-D

It is a breach of Geneva Convention? Yes indeed, POWs have NOT to be shown in TV !

Quote:

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected , particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity . Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

But who cares, god bless america.

[ March 25, 2003, 21:56: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Phoenix-D

March 25th, 2003 11:56 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

"It is a breach of Geneva Convention? Yes indeed, POWs have NOT to be shown in TV"

And in the WTF catagory..
EDIT:
"against insults and public curiosity"

To me that sounds more like don't be sticking them in the stockades for people to laugh at, not a one minute clip of random soldiers being led away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway:
"Illuminating the hypocritical nature of the sec. of defense and our own media (Paula Zahn on CNN the morning the men and women were shown on video saying "this is ghastly and disgusting." yet cuts to our own footage of us leading iraqi troops away.)"

I think the point here was the killing POWs vs well, not killing them or treating them that badly.

"And loudly proclaming how many troops we've captured, and how well we are treating them, in comparison to the people still detained at guantanomo bay or the possibly hundreds we've killed in afghanistan."

The definition of treated well from a criminal and a POW are somewhat different. POWs don't get access to lawyers, which is what the complaining in the cuba base was about. And killed..hello, you do military operations, people die. Sort of a fact of life.

Phoenix-D

[ March 25, 2003, 22:01: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 26th, 2003 12:17 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

And in the WTF catagory..

What the f.. does this abbrev. mean?

Quote:

EDIT:
"against insults and public curiosity"

To me that sounds more like don't be sticking them in the stockades for people to laugh at, not a one minute clip of random soldiers being led away

Well, it is a matter of interpretation, but of course, what we have seen from Al-jazeera TV and their question/answer games has been another story.

tesco samoa

March 26th, 2003 12:40 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...921192,00.html

an interesting article about the prisoners and the Taliban prisoners...

dogscoff

March 26th, 2003 11:26 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Interesting Tesco? Horrific more like. I know not everyone reads every link posted in these threads, but here are some highlights:

On November 21 2001, around 8,000 Taliban soldiers and Pashtun civilians surrendered at Konduz to the Northern Alliance commander, General Abdul Rashid Dostum ... The doors were sealed and the lorries were left to stand in the sun for several days ... The prisoners, many of whom were dying of thirst and asphyxiation, started banging on the sides of the trucks. Dostum's men stopped the convoy and machine-gunned the containers. When they arrived at Sheberghan, most of the captives were dead ... The US special forces running the prison watched the bodies being unloaded. They instructed Dostum's men to "get rid of them before satellite pictures can be taken" ... In the presence of up to 40 US special forces, the living and the dead were dumped into ditches. Anyone who moved was shot ... The German newspaper Die Zeit investigated the claims and concluded that: "No one doubted that the Americans had taken part. Even at higher levels there are no doubts on this issue." ... Donald Rumsfeld's department, assisted by a pliant media, has done all it can to suppress Jamie Doran's film, while General Dostum has begun to assassinate his witnesses.

I thought Guantanamo Bay was bad but this is fkn barbaric.

Phoenix-D

March 26th, 2003 11:35 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

"What the f.. does this abbrev. mean?"

Exactly what you just said..

Phoenix-D

PsychoTechFreak

March 27th, 2003 10:19 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Public curiosity... Isn't it the same with court procedures with no cameras allowed? I tend to think so.

phaet2112

March 27th, 2003 11:39 PM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

But the judge can allow footage of the defendant and prosecutor if they desire. The jury must always remain unknown, though, to prevent undue influence.

Mephisto

March 28th, 2003 12:06 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Look were Psycho lives. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif He is from Germany and here you cannot film anyone inside of a court room. No, never, anyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

April 3rd, 2003 02:31 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Source (has been posted sooner already)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...921192,00.html

Quote:

... prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, in Cuba, where 641 men (nine of whom are British citizens) are held, breaches no fewer than 15 articles of the third convention. The US government broke the first of these (article 13) as soon as the prisoners arrived, by displaying them, just as the Iraqis have done, on television . In this case, however, they were not encouraged to address the cameras. They were kneeling on the ground, hands tied behind their backs, wearing blacked-out goggles and earphones. In breach of article 18, they had been stripped of their own clothes and deprived of their possessions. They were then interned in a penitentiary (against article 22), where they were denied proper mess facilities (26), canteens (28), religious premises (34), opportunities for physical exercise (38), access to the text of the convention (41), freedom to write to their families (70 and 71) and parcels of food and books (72).

They were not "released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities" (118), because, the US authorities say, their interrogation might, one day, reveal interesting information about al-Qaida. Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No "coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever". In the hope of breaking them, however, the authorities have confined them to solitary cells and subjected them to what is now known as "torture lite": sleep deprivation and constant exposure to bright light. Unsurprisingly, several of the prisoners have sought to kill themselves, by smashing their heads against the walls or trying to slash their wrists with pLastic cutlery.

The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (al-Qaida) must be regarded as prisoners of war...

tesco samoa

April 3rd, 2003 02:48 AM

Re: OT: Captured Troops

Good news one of the American POW's have been recovered

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:24 AM.