The effect of two races on a planet.
 

Lets assume we drop one (1) pop of a different race on a planet and

1) The new population now exceeds the planet's limit (which was reduced).
2) The number of facilities now exceeds the planet's limit.
3) The amount in cargo now exceeds the cargo limit.

What happens on the next turn?

I am guessing, but would think the excess population and cargo would be lost. But not the extra facilities.

[ March 24, 2003, 17:32: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

Nothing happens. If you move non-breathing population to an existing world, it will simply maintain the existing levels of population, stored items, and facilities.

You can't add any more, of course, and population growth will be 0. It doesn't kill your people or eject your cargo, though (fortunately).

You can actually see this under a few conditions:
1-Move a non-breathing population to a planet.
2-Capture or trade a world from someone who has "Advanced Storage" racial tech.
3-There is a bug where under the right conditions you can get a non-breathable starting homeworld. I've started with a huge planet with 8000 population, max 500.

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

IIRC nothing is lost. The population will stop growing but you will keep what you have.

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

Thanx guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am in the middle of a complex turn and didn't want to abort the game to test it out.

It was a huge planet with 25 facilities and to lose most of everything was too great a risk to take.

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

There is an interesting trick especially usefull in Proportions:

First, remember that population in Proportions is very "heavy" and reproduce 10 times slower. Starliners and colony ships move just 1 pop. unit for example. Thus, when you create a colony, it has 1 population. 10 turns later it will have 2 population due to the way SEIV assign pop. an integer value. It should be 1.1 but its rounded up to 2. Now, suppose you have another race. It is very usefull to mix them up - if you have 1, for example human and 1 Phong, every 10 turns you will get a new human and new phong ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Compare situations when 1) you have human planet with 2 humans and phong planet with 2 phongs - next year you have 3 humans and 3 phongs. 2) you mix them up - 2 planets each with 1 human and 1 phong. Next turn you have planets with 2 humans and 2 phongs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif - double population growth !!!
It is almost cheating I think, and is just another reason beside helping AI why I scaled up population 10 times in my Proportions games !

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

That "trick" is a bug exploit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

Interesting Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I had heard about getting double population in a standard game, but didn't know how it worked in Proportions, having never played it.

Not sure if your advice is for proportions or a standard game or both.

So, let's take the proportions mod.

Nomally, it would be.

1 human populatates a planet at turn 1.
1.1 humans at turn 2
1.2 humans at turn 3
.
.
.
.
.
.
1.9 humans at turn 10
2 humans at turn 11

It is rounded up to the next one-tenth of a integer rather than a full integer as in a normal game.

But more important, are you saying that by adding another race in Proportions, it changes the way it calculates population growth and each race is rounded up a full integer rather than one ten-tenth of an integer.

In other words, in Proportions with a human and a Phong, both will increase by a full integer each turn rather than by one-tenth of an integer?

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

You can not have fractional population with integer math. You get 2 pop after 1 turn in the normal game, not after 10 turns. It rounds up. You only get that 1 pop after 10 turns in Proportions because in Proportions, reproduction only happens at month .1, instead of every month.

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

It certainly happens in unmodded SE as well but is of almost no importance. The key is "reproduction check frequency" in settings.txt. Normally it is 1 and after 10 turns (1 year) rounding up the population numbers will be of minor importance. In Proportions, however, it will take 10 times longer - 100 turns !

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You could have noticed that when you capture a planet with many troops your storage is overoaded(1000 kt of 200 kt). This happends to me quite often.

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Both in theory, although this effect is exaggerated in proportions by the importance and relatively slow growth of population. In the standard game it's usually insignificant becasue population is so cheap anyway.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No.
Put it this way: Because of integer maths, the lowest population growth a planet can have (ignoring population decline or zero growth) is 1 million per growth period. However, if you have multiple races on a planet, you get at least 1 million per race per growth period.

So in any game it goes according to the following table, the only difference is that in proportions, each growth period is ten turns and in the standard game it is every turn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Planet with 1 race. Planet with 2 races. Planet with 3 races.
Start: 1 million 2x 1 million 3x 1 million
Growth period 1: 1m + 1m =2m. 2m + one of each =4m 3m + 3 of each =6m
Growth period 2: 2m + 1m =3m. 4m + one of each =6m 6m + 3 of each =9m
Growth period 3: 3m + 1m =4m. 6m + one of each =8m 9m + 3 of each =12m</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And so on for 4 races, 5 races etc.

The above model is complicated further in the real game by varying population growth rates (ie according to happiness and cloning facilities etc) but that only makes a difference when the "natural" growth rate (ie if you only had one race on there) would exceed 1 per growth period.

If you have enough population and high enough growth rate on a planet to be producing more than one person per growth period "naturally", and you introduce a second race, you will get no bonus population- the natural growth is split between the two populations. However, if your natural growth is 2 per period and you have 3 races, you will get 3 growth instead of 2.

[ March 25, 2003, 11:59: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

Hi! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I feel I am missing something here. It is probably so obvious that I wouldn't notice it if it hit me full in the face. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Statements have been made that it is especially useful in a Proportions game.

The examples given apply to a standard game.

What I think is being said is "Growth of very small populations in both the standard game and the proportions game is in direct ratio to the number of races on the planet."

So, "Small (but equal) populations of two races will have double normal growth in the sense that each race will have a normal growth, but when taken together, the growth rate is doubled when compared to the growth rate of just one race."

Further, "It is particularly useful in Proportions because of its slow growth rate of populations."

Would this be an accurate assessment? Or am I still missing something? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

Yeah.
If there is any positive growth rate, you get a minimum of 1M of each race on the planet each time the growth is calculated.

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The mechanism is the same in both games, it's just that the numbers are different. In the normal game growth rates are high anyway so the exploit rarely applies. Furthermore, population is so cheap that it is of little importance when it does.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What you've said there is true, but only for small populations.
If the "natural" (ie how it would be without the exploit) growth rate is greater than or equal to the "exploited" growth rate, then the natural rate applies.

[ March 25, 2003, 14:24: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What you've said there is true, but only for small populations.
If the "natural" (ie how it would be without the exploit) growth rate is greater than or equal to the "exploited" growth rate, then the natural rate applies.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks Dogscoff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just a small point. What if the "natural" growth rate is less than the "exploited" growth rate? Does it not apply to both?

Re: The effect of two races on a planet.
 

Hmmm. OK.

What I've been calling the natural growth rate is the standard amount of new population you would expect to get from a planet with only one race on it. It is calculated by multiplying the existing population by the "growth rate" figure, as visible on the planet info screen. (There may be a third variable in there, I can't remember.)

In all cases, the natural growth rate is applied to the *sum* of all populations on the planet, and the new population is split in species across all the races present.

However, each race present must get at least one million of it's kind added in every population increase. If the natural growth rate is not enough to accomodate this, extra population is added above the natural rate, leading to an abnormally high reproduction rate and an exploit.

Some examples:

Let's say that in all of these examples there is a 20% reproduction rate after all modifiers have been applied, so a 100 million population planet would expect to get an extra 20 million people.

Example 1:
You have 1 million phong all on their own on the planet. By rights, you should only get 1m x 20%= 0.2m extra population, but the game can’t handle fractions and you get 1m extra. That means your reproduction rate has been artificially bumped up to 100% for that turn!

Example 2:
You have 100 million terrans and 100 million phong. The game adds them together to get 200 million, and sees that you are entitled to 20%=40 million new people. You get 20 million new phong and 20 million new terrans.

Example 3:
You have 100 million terrans, 100 million phong and 50 million Vikings. This time you should get 50 million. I’m pretty sure this will be divided up in the correct ratio, 20m phong, 20m terran and 10m viking.

Example 4:
You have 99 million Vikings and 1 million phong. In theory, you should get 19.8m vikings and 0.2m phong. The important thing is that the total is still 20m. The game will not exceed 20m in this case, because it can just give you a million phong and 19 million vikings. The ratio is out but the 20% overall rate is maintained.

Example 5:
You have 2 million Vikings, one million phong, one million terrans. You should get just 0.75 new population, but the game wants you to have one of each of these species, so you get 3 million new poulation. Your effective reproduction rate has been artificially forced up to 75%!

[ March 25, 2003, 15:43: Message edited by: dogscoff ]