Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

In one of my PBW games, one of my intel projects was defeated.

The message appeared in the Log/Events with the message heading "Intelligence Project Completed".

with the message:

"One of our Intelligence projects against the XXXX was defeated by counter-intelligence defenses. We suspect the XXXX of this vicious act."

I am puzzled by this as I know all my intel projects were many turns from being completed.

But just to be sure, I checked the previous turn.

Anybody have an idea what happened?

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

There is a project called Intelligence Sabotage. It is supposed to delete an intel project if successful. However, I didn't think it worked on a CI project.

Slick.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

That's exactly what happened. And yes, I've had multiple CI projects running, and had one of them targeted and deleted.

They are currently hitting you with more Intel points that you have in CI. Stop distributing points evenly and prioritize a CI project (highest level possible) to rebuild a defense. When things calm down, you can work on offensive projects again.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

I had a lot of CI points to take care of any intel attacks against me. Like, lots more. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

New intel points were set to be divided equally among the projects.

What was successfully attacked was not a CI project but an incomplete Crew Insurrection project.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But not enough... If I understand correctly, all of your CI projects are now gone. That's the way intel works. CI must be depleted before an offensive project can get through.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

This still doesn't make sense to me. For an intel attack to be successful, it has to overcome your stored CI points. If you have CI points, it shouldn't be successful. If you ran out of CI points, then the Intel Sabotage should be deleting an offensive project. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[edit: disregard... I didn't read the thread well enough]

Slick.

[ April 17, 2003, 16:13: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Ok, Counter Intelligence rules:

1) First read the Newbie FAQ on this issue, there is lotsa good info.
2) CI projects are only good when they are "holding" points, don't ever complete one because all the stored points go to intel heaven and are lost forever.
3) When an incoming attack happens, the corresponding amount of points are deducted from your stored CI projects, starting from the rightmost one and moving left.
4) CI 2 and CI 3 are worth more than CI 1 (see faq for numbers)
5) Any CI gets a bonus over offensive intel (see faq and settings.txt)
6) From 4 & 5 above, you need much less intel points to defend than to attack (as it should be).
7) All stored CI points work together as it were no matter if they are spread out amongst multiple CI projects.
8) ONLY if you don't have enough stored CI points to block an incoming attack will the attack succeed. If successful, they succeed with 100% certainty except Puppet Political Parties which I *think* is a 50% success rate.
9) Some have posted that you must add at least some points to a CI each turn for it to work. This is a bug that has been fixed and is no longer true.
10) If you are still reading this, you are hooked on this game. My sincerest condolences to your family. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[edit: spppeling, gramer]

Slick.

[ April 17, 2003, 16:27: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Intel Sabotage can delete any project, including CI.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Hmmmm

Consensus seems to be that if you have enough CI points, it will stop all intel attacks including Intel Sabotage.

I had enough CI points.

Conclusion, the Intel Sabotage didn't occur. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So, that new empty slot really isn't there. I must be imagining it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Well we can't really tell you what happened without actually seeing your savegame, so our answers are all guesses.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Okay, Tbontob, lets see if I have this straight.

You had and still have several CI projects operating.
You received and intel sabotage attack which deleted a crew insurrection under contruction.

If this is true, then CI appears to have no effect against intel sabotage! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

tbontob,

It's kind of important to tell us if you have filled buckets of CI or not...

or were they depleted and you had to start new ones?

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it does. I have seen plenty of Intel Sabotage missions blocked by CI.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Yes, I did have more than enough to stop all intel.

Looking at everything closely, I now think that I may have had a intel project that executed and was stopped by their intel.

But I can't say this for sure.

I do remember playing with various intel scenarios including such a project but thought I didn't when I submitted the turn.

Unfortunately comparing the turns does not give me an answer.

I think you guys had it right when you said CI will stop all intel. And that includes sabotague intel.

What prompted this thread was the concern that there may be other changes (like not having to contribute to CI on every turn) of which we were not informed.

Right now, my feeling is that CI intel stops all intel as you guys have suggested.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Here is a question:

Does a single CI project counter one and only one intel project per turn? In a current game I am using intel heavily and based on my success and failure rate this is what I suspect might be happening.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

My experience is that the CI intel will stop as many attacks as it has points.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

"What prompted this thread was the concern that there may be other changes (like not having to contribute to CI on every turn) of which we were not informed. "

I am pretty sure it is in the Version history file somewhere. And even if it isn't, it has been discussed many times here on Shrapnel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is correct. CI has no limit to the number of projects it can theoretically stop. 1 CI III could in theory block 359 projects that cost only 5000 points (such as Covert Recon) at once (if nearly full, ~500,000 points * 3, plus 20% for CI bonus, -1 cause it can't be full or it loses all stored points).

[ April 19, 2003, 02:29: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Hey is there a specific message that tells you if your project has been stopped by counter intel?

I had some projects fail which I though was due to counter-intel but I realize now it may have been because a Food Contamination project got sent against a colony with 0 pop.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

While we are on the subject of Intel, I have a burning question that I never got a good answer for.

How is it determined if the attackee (empire being attacked) knows who the attacker is?

Slick.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that is determined by the message given for the project. Some have source empire in them, so it tells you who did the attack. Others do not tell you, so you don't know.

DavidG:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope, there is only a generic failure message. It keeps things more interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 19, 2003, 05:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that is determined by the message given for the project. Some have source empire in them, so it tells you who did the attack. Others do not tell you, so you don't know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks! So if I were to edit each intel attack to specify the attacker, this would work 100% or the time? I was somehow under the impression that the attacker was only identified under certain circumstances. I guess that circumstance is how the message is set up in the intelprojects file. Learn something new every day...

Slick.

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

I don't have access to the data files at the moment (no SE4 on this comp), but I am pretty sure that should work. It would be very easy to test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But, a more interesting system is when some (or all) events and intel projects that do the same things have the same Messages, so you never know if it was intel or an event. Why should you get to know if sabotage blew your ship up? It wouldn't be very good sabotage if you could always find that out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

Talking about intel... In one game I am attacking one empire with 250k of offencive intel points every turn for about 10 turns already and never get through. AFAIK counter intel must have some points stored in it to work but how can it store points if I am all the time attacking. I think CI stores points when it is idle. In this case it is not.
To counter 250k of offencive intel you need ~70k of CI. Is it the case that he has for example 100k of intel points, blocks my attacks with 70k and the remaining 30k is then stored in CI? Will I ever succeed in this case? I mean without destroying his intel facilities?

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">CI is like a bank account. He puts points in, your attacks take points out. This exchange happens each turn and I *think* his new points go into the CI project before your attacks come in.

If he has a CI3 project running, it is 3.6:1 effective at blocking attacks (see Newbie FAQ for how I got that number) so he only needs to be putting in 69,445 points per turn to counter your 250,000. 250,000 / 3.6 = 69,445. As you can see, it is much easier to defend than to attack. So in your example, he is making 100,000 intel points. He could be using that extra 30,000 to make even more CI or using them on offensive attacks. If I was blocking 250k per turn and only making 100k, I would definitely be putting all my points into CI3 projects because I could get attacked by someone else very soon.

BTW, that extra 30,000 points could block 30,000 * 3.6 = 108,000 points of attacks.

Slick.

[ April 19, 2003, 16:56: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Counter-Intelligence Ineffective?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is correct. Points added to CI in a turn are indeed used for defense in that turn if necessary.